Social Constructs

[Guest My_Genesis]

I'm putting this in the general forum b/c I'm interested in hearing the mtf perspective on this.

Believe it or not, being socialized as a female, there are some social constructs I will miss. Females have a lot more gender flexibility socially than males have, especially straight males. When it comes down to it, I fall into the straight male category, so I suppose I will eventually have to learn how to act like one, in a socially acceptable way. Not that everyone has to conform to gender stereotypes. But there are definitely some things that are socially acceptable and unacceptable based on your gender. For example:

- Wearing clothing of the opposite sex. Acceptable for ciswomen but not so much for cismen. At my college bookstore, there are mostly guys clothes. A lot of girls wear them. They're pretty much unisex. But what if I happen to find something made for girls that appears more unisex (like a fitted t-shirt, which guys can wear as well) but happens to be a girls' shirt? Are there a lot of guys that wear girls clothes, and they just don't like to say they do? Is there anything "wrong" with it? I mean, whatever looks good on you and fits, looks good on you and fits? Right? So why does clothing even have to be gendered? Some of it isn't. And that makes it totally ok for guys to wear it? Hmmm....

- Stating that someone is attractive, even if you personally are not attracted to them. Girls do this a lot more than guys do. So if a guy is attractive (assuming we have a definition of what makes men attractive), but you, if you are male, are not attracted to them, is it still weird to mention that he is good-looking if you are hanging out with cis, straight friends? Or will they look at you funny? I mean, I have a bio-male friend who said something along the lines of "I'm not gay, but [so-and-so guy] is good-looking." So it was ok in that one circumstance. But, notice how he prefaced his statement with "I'm not gay." But being female, it's a lot easier to get away with "wow she's hot!" without anyone questioning your sexual orientation and ridiculing you because of it. with guys you're more likely to hear, "dude, that's so gay!" if you make such a statement about another guy. But if you are comfortable with your own sexuality, and you make a statement like that, it seems other people are comfortable with it as well and don't question you.

So I mean, is that the solution? Just be yourself and be comfortable with yourself kind of thing? Or are there social rules we absolutely have to stick to?

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Good questions

I think you answered a lot of that when you wrote:

So I mean, is that the solution? Just be yourself and be comfortable with yourself kind of thing? Or are there social rules we absolutely have to stick to?

Okay - as a guy - NEVER EVER give any hint of being interested in another guy sexually - do not compliment clothing like girls do each other, for example. You can get the idea if you just realize - be selfish! The sun and the moon revolve around you - all others are inferior, women of course, but especially other guys! You are ALWAYS in competition for the alpha male position - even with your best male friend!

You wanted to totally be a man! ha! Personally I hate a man's way of thinking! and understate everything... "See that dude, he's a chick magnet" NOT "he looks good."

Wearing 'girl's clothing' as a guy - OKAY - but cut out or hide the labels. And DON'T wear pink - unless you are very very very much the alpha male.

Just watch how guys talk among themselves - NEVER mention relationships for example. A guy will have problems with his wife, divorce, and never say anything to his buds!

Hope this helps.

Lizzy (aka not-Lizzy)

[Guest Girl Emily]

I was never confident in my maleness so I had to stick pretty close to the social constructs. Guys tend to group around a particular pastime. For me it was cars and hunting as a teenager/young adult. I wouldn't be caught dead in any clothes that had a remote possibility of being women's. Never compliment other mens appearance only their actions. The man who is best at verbal jousting is socially promoted. You must pick on each others weakest parts to get ahead. All in good taste and spirit of friendship. When in the presence of women all male behavior is toned down a noch or two. Never kiss and tell but a lot is said with silent agreement.

I Can't think of anything more right now

Men who hang out together are friends no matter how poorly they appear to treat each other.

Huggs,

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Wearing clothing of the opposite sex: as a regular every guy this is a cardinal sin. Even if it's a well-fitting shirt. I didn't know any of my guy friends that would wear a woman's shirt and I certainly did not do it when I was incognito. Now the guys who are metrosexual have more leniancy to do that but they would also run the risk of teasing from the typical regular every day guy.

Complimenting another guy is a tricky river to wade across. If you like the shirt another guy is wearing you can give out a generic compliment but do not go into much detail. "Hey man, that shirt looks really good on you." That's it! Don't mention the color, or the cut, or the style. Just a generic compliment. In my male days I would have never complimented a guy's physical features at the risk of people thinking I was gay. You can cover this by saying how you mean this in a totally heterosexual way...or throw out the compliment and then when people give you that "uhhhh..is there something you want to tell us?" look say "Hey, I'm secure in myself and my sexuality to compliment another guy."

Just giving my two cents from a once manly-man perspective.

[Guest RachaelAnn]

To put it simply: Women have evolved over time. Men are still in the stone age. Still neanderthal cavemen beating on their chests. Maybe men will catch up to women someday and grow up.

Rachael

[Guest Evan_J]

I spent most of my time growin up and as an early twenty something with this certain group of guys. Two of were related to me. One in particular I spent the kind of time with that I got "the up close" view into the boy hut; yup, the dirty/grimey stuff ya keep personal. Based on the boys I tagged after as a kid, and that group in particular, I feel comfortable co-signing it just the way Lizzy broke it down to you.

You can go the "eclectic and intellectual route" of evolved masculinity if you want to. But unless you are undesputed in your alpha ranking in your social group, you WILL be interpreted to be "gay" (or easily "made" gay). Men just don't compliment on each other that way. It gets read as "what are you trying to do? pick him up?" Actually, (and this prolly is the by product of getting socialized by that group I was talkin about) I don't know why you would care about the attractiveness of someone unless you were checking them out for potential with regard to your own sexual interests.

I have two modes with regard to my interest in your "attractiveness"; weighing potential, and I don't care about you. lol.

And I think thats how it is with cis straight men.

If it helps , look at it this way: whatever it is you're doing , ask yourself "what is the purpose of 'x' ". Most (opinion) male thinking goes to what is the purpose of a thing. Checking someone out "just because" serves no purpose. You either do it to figure out what you think/what you want sexually or not at all. What other purpose would you have?

It works for other stuff too. Always identify what the goal of a behavior is. -of course that also is how I got my face slapped (cuz to me the goal of a girl talking sexually to me is to inform me that sex is an available topic between us......) But I think cis guys get that botched also.

[Guest My_Genesis]

I spent most of my time growin up and as an early twenty something with this certain group of guys. Two of were related to me. One in particular I spent the kind of time with that I got "the up close" view into the boy hut; yup, the dirty/grimey stuff ya keep personal. Based on the boys I tagged after as a kid, and that group in particular, I feel comfortable co-signing it just the way Lizzy broke it down to you.

You can go the "eclectic and intellectual route" of evolved masculinity if you want to. But unless you are undesputed in your alpha ranking in your social group, you WILL be interpreted to be "gay" (or easily "made" gay). Men just don't compliment on each other that way. It gets read as "what are you trying to do? pick him up?" Actually, (and this prolly is the by product of getting socialized by that group I was talkin about) I don't know why you would care about the attractiveness of someone unless you were checking them out for potential with regard to your own sexual interests.

I have two modes with regard to my interest in your "attractiveness"; weighing potential, and I don't care about you. lol.

And I think thats how it is with cis straight men.

If it helps , look at it this way: whatever it is you're doing , ask yourself "what is the purpose of 'x' ". Most (opinion) male thinking goes to what is the purpose of a thing. Checking someone out "just because" serves no purpose. You either do it to figure out what you think/what you want sexually or not at all. What other purpose would you have?

It works for other stuff too. Always identify what the goal of a behavior is. -of course that also is how I got my face slapped (cuz to me the goal of a girl talking sexually to me is to inform me that sex is an available topic between us......) But I think cis guys get that botched also.

May I ask what "group" you are referring to?

The cis straight guy I was talking about has a lot of female friends, and probably only about 10% of his friends are male. so he isn't exactly an "alpha male" hes more the "nice guy" who has a lot of platonic female friends. He's not a creep or anything with them - he doesn't just try to befriend them to get in bed with them type of deal. He said to me once, when we were walking around campus at school "I could never be in a frat. But that's probably b/c I hate guys. Girls are so much cooler"

Just to give you a general idea of who this guy is. When he said that thing about "I'm not gay, but I think [so-and-so] is attractive" he was talking to me and another girl, who happens to be his best friend and he sees their friendship as a brother-sister type one. He doesn't view her sexually in any way. At the time, he didn't know i was trans, so he was assuming he was in the presence of 2 straight women, mentioning the attractiveness of another guy. He was stating that you don't have to be gay to state the attractiveness of another male.

The "purpose" of me stating another guy looks good would mainly be this: I want to be him; I wish I looked like that; man, he probably has a lot of girls after him. more like, I envy him or wish I was him, you know? So I am not saying he is attractive to me. I'm saying that objectively speaking, i can tell that he has sex appeal (to striaght/bi women or to gay/bi guys), which I would model myself after and/or wish I had myself. Does that make sense?

[Guest Evan_J]

May I ask what "group" you are referring to?

*Rereading previous post to be sure of the answer......

Sounds like I was referring to the group I hung out with? (At least I know thats what I meant. ie if that group is a valid example of male socializing then blah blah)

Truthfully? ....And I'm not sayin it to attack/critisize the guy you heard say "I'm not gay but [yadda]" .....Just saying what I've seen here and with the males I've been around...... that guy sounds like a ) he realizes the likelihood of that kind of commentary being judged as "gay", b ) likely has had peeps assume/accuse him of being gay , because c ) he overall (based on all the other tidbits offered) seems "just a little too soft" by those hard-core type male rules. Do I think its right? Honestly I don't think its necessary. As a society we probably would be better off without all of that. HOWEVER today while stuff is still unenlightened its the case. For me personally, lol as I said , unless I'm interested in you , I give a rats butt what you¹ are.

1. That's "you" as in "anybody"; general.

[Guest My_Genesis]

*Rereading previous post to be sure of the answer......

Sounds like I was referring to the group I hung out with? (At least I know thats what I meant. ie if that group is a valid example of male socializing then blah blah)

Truthfully? ....And I'm not sayin it to attack/critisize the guy you heard say "I'm not gay but [yadda]" .....Just saying what I've seen here and with the males I've been around...... that guy sounds like a ) he realizes the likelihood of that kind of commentary being judged as "gay", b ) likely has had peeps assume/accuse him of being gay , because c ) he overall (based on all the other tidbits offered) seems "just a little too soft" by those hard-core type male rules. Do I think its right? Honestly I don't think its necessary. As a society we probably would be better off without all of that. HOWEVER today while stuff is still unenlightened its the case. For me personally, lol as I said , unless I'm interested in you , I give a rats butt what you¹ are.

1. That's "you" as in "anybody"; general.

Ah. I thought you were referring to some specific group of people. I gotcha now.

He has a lot of girls accuse him of being a girl, lol. I asked him once, "doesn't that bother you?" he said, "I'm very comfortable with my sexuality." Which made me envy him b/c I wouldn't be comfortable enough with my pre-transition self to not get angry if someone called me a girl. It also brings me back to my question of being comfortable with yourself to the point you don't have to think about these things, you just have to be yourself. I'm not sure that works or not. Maybe you have to settle for somewhere in the middle.

To quote Lizzy

I think you answered a lot of that when you wrote:

So I mean, is that the solution? Just be yourself and be comfortable with yourself kind of thing? Or are there social rules we absolutely have to stick to

How did I answer the question? lol. Sorry if I sound confusing. I think I've confused myself.