Digit Ratio

[Guest Chandra]

Hello Everyone,

It seems some scientist's believe there is some significance between the lengths of index and ring fingers.

In a nut shell, women generally have longer index fingers than ring fingers, men the opposite.

Is this just an old wise tale, or do you think there might be something to it ?

As I look down at my fingers, both index fingers are longer than my ring fingers.

What do you think ?

This is where I got it from. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

Love, Chandra

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Me too.

lizzy

[Guest joeytheman16]

My ring fingers are both longer than my index fingers! I tried to tell those people...

Joey

[Guest NatashaJade]

Not me...I guess I'm stuck with man hands...*sniff*

luv

Gin

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Dearest Chandra

Some gender identity tests indicate that if one's ring finger is identitcal to one's index finger in terms of length then they are female.

Many people's index fingers are longer than their ring fingers. I am the opposite. My ring finger extends beyond my index finger (on both hands).

I am not worried I know that I am pre-disposed for kickin' guitar playing

The whole index vs ring finger thing is rediculous. The physical dynamics of all human beings are endless.

Love

Brenda

[Guest harvester52]

My ring fingers are WAY longer than my index fingers. If it's all true... shoulda know'd. XD

[Guest AshleyRF]

mine are exactly the same length on both hands.

[Guest Skylar]

On my right hand my ring finger is longer but on my left hand they are the same size. haha I guess that explains why I questioned being androgynous or a ftm for the longest time. lol

[Guest JeanVier]

My ring fingers are both longer than my index fingers. *beams*

Yet, my cisgender male partner's index fingers are longer than his ring fingers, so it is certainly not 100%...

Thanks!

-JV

[Guest Kieri]

I'm pretty sure the digit ratio thing has been discredited as not consistent enough. There's enough natural variation so that it can't be relied on.

That said, do you all eyeball it? I can make the lengths look different in relation to each other just by holding my fingers in different natural positions.

For example:

-If I hold my fingers together, the index finger appears slightly longer than the ring finger

-If I hold my fingers slightly apart, the index finger appears the same length

-and if I hold my fingers even further apart the ring finger appears longer

Just for the sake of curiosity, I broke out a ruler. My right index finger is about 1 millimeter longer and my left is 2 millimeters shorter when measured as the wiki article describes. So there you have it, I am both male and female!

[Guest Soph]

Rumor-esque pseudo-medical things like this are really alienating and invalidating for people who don't necessarily fit the expectation.

I know; I have man-hands >_<

[Guest childofwinter]

They are of equal length on both hands (although the two on one hand are 2mm longer than the two on the other).

[Guest Maelee]

Dearest Chandra

Some gender identity tests indicate that if one's ring finger is identitcal to one's index finger in terms of length then they are female.

Many people's index fingers are longer than their ring fingers. I am the opposite. My ring finger extends beyond my index finger (on both hands).

I am not worried I know that I am pre-disposed for kickin' guitar playing

The whole index vs ring finger thing is rediculous. The physical dynamics of all human beings are endless.

Love

Brenda

I have to agree with Brenda. Useing physical comparison measurements to determine something about a person is way to general. Plus it sort of screams out to me as being a bad thing, very reminiscent of what the cup cake's did in WW2 to describe "races" of human and their hunt for the orgin of their "master race". There is even a type of astrology or numerology or something like that based off of physical measurements. Most of it I think is ridiculous. Heck, just by looking I can see a difference in my finger lengths from one hand to the other, so how could anything like this be accurate?

With that said though I have to say I have man hands too My left hand the index is shorter then the ring and on the right they are about the same. I also have big hands in general I can not even come close to wearing bangles, have never found any yet that I can get past my hands.

Love and *hugs*

Mae

[Sally]

I haven't bothered to measure.

Isn't it just this type of physical evidence that got us mislabeled in the first place?

Love ya,

Sally

[JJ]

Funny I came across this information on a scientific site today. And got completely sidetracked researching it-and it is pretty much an accepted scientific fact. The research and debate now is focused on why.

It is being used as further scientific proof that being transgender is from the womb because many-NOT ALL - TS have fingers that correspond to their gender identity rather than their assigned gender.

nn

I was not happy. My index finger looks longer than my ring finger. So I thought i had missed that validation (Don't we ever get enough validation folks? Nope!) But i read further and found the criteria for measuring the fingers and it isn't based on appearance but on the measurement from the fold at the base of the fingers -on the ring finger which can have 2 it is the closer one. And my ring finger is actually significantly longer than my index finger! Male pattern. My palms are tapered so that my ring finger sits lower than my index finger. I never thought about measuring till now.

Interestingly enough it has been found that primates share this characteristic and it is believed to be tied in to pre-natal androgen in some way. It is not 100% -it doesn't mean you aren't trans if yours aren't in the category for your gender identity. It is just a clue about conditions in your mother's womb that played a part if they do correspond.

But it IS proven science folks, whether we like the idea or not. I read a half dozen scientific papers on it this morning and saw sources for more cited. So much of what we are is influenced in ways that are just beginning to be hinted at as research becomes more focused on very specific gender determined characteristics.

[Guest Mina89]

I never thought about this before. Mine are almost equal, index about 1/16 inch longer from the base of the lowest fold. Whatever the truth is, I guess I correspond to the findings.

For all their unfortunate applications, ideas like phrenology and eugenics didn't come from some underground think tank of evil and catch on through propaganda. They had some semblance of reason driving them: certain biological characteristics tend to correspond to other characteristics. Not really all that counter-intuitive. No one would deny that biological men tend to have larger skeletons than biological women, but details like digit ratio are tempting to reject out of hand.

Of course, phrenology ignored the social factors at work in its theory of criminality: people of the same ethnicity tend to have similarly shaped heads for the same reason they share other features in common, and the heads deemed "criminal" in the United States tended to belong to people of Black, Irish, Polish,and Italian descent: the most impoverished groups and the most likely to live in the slums where cultures of crime flourished in those days. Eugenics came from the fact that some diseases are hereditary, and could be "bred out" if those carrying them did not breed. This was tainted by the racial mind of the time, who viewed way too much of human variation as a hereditary disease, such as Jewishness.

If any society wants to start a eugenics program against us, it does not need something like digit ratio to do it. Merely chasing down our medical records will make finding us and our descendants easy enough. I don't see anything wrong with science investigating possible common factors between body development and brain development. Isn't stuff like that what scientists are supposed to do? It's up to the rest of us to make an atrocity out of it.

-Valerie

[JJ]

I agree Valerie.

Apparently what is driving some of this research is determining what genes are linked. In this case a gene that determines gender is also tied to finger ratio between those two fingers. It helps identify the gene and what it does. Which has all kinds of positive implications for health and medicine in the future as well as of course the potential for abuse.

One application that has been suggested for this information is that babies be screened for it because it isn't only transgender but other intersexed conditions that are indicated and a parent would know to be aware of possible problems. Think of the implications if we KNEW that a child was a different gender from their external genatalia from the beginning. First the stigma would be less-this is a medical situation then beyond doubt but the feelings of wrongness could be mitigated early on and the cross socialization avoided. So much pain and confusion avoided. Kids wouldn't face having to come out to parents in denial anymore. If nothing else brain scans could then also be done along with chromosome testing to catch all the conditions that cause gender issues. Parents would have the knowledge to understand who they child was from the beginning instead of investing in years of plans and dreams and beliefs that they are later anot always able to let go.

We screen for all kinds of conditions now and that has not led to any sort of eugenics program. Science is what it is and our denial or fear of the implications won't change or stop the research or the knowledge.

[Sakura]

i was in a bar a long while ago . and that show mansers was on the TV there . and the episode " how do you tell if that woman is really a dude " was on and that very issues was posed and soon as it was every guy in the place looked at the nearest womans hands... lol

my index and ring finger on both hands are exactly the same length so is my moms and my sisters , and my female cousins . i think its more a genetics than anything . least in my family

Sakura

[Guest Roxanna L]

I'm down with the flu, but I couldnt resist checking around. So I'm miserable and sick...

*Grabs the rollo-tape and starts measuring...*

Yay!! Ive got 75 millimeters on each index and ring finger!

Now I can be happy and sick.

(I know... weird...)

I won't be giving any hugs, because I don't want to infect anyone.

Anna

[Guest Nick A]

Well, I'm happy for everybody who can have this validation. I was hoping I'd be with you all, but I'm not. Both my index and ring fingers are measuring pretty much the same, which puts me in the average female category -- what I've been all of my life on the outside at least. Funny, as I've only ever been the "tomboy" type who loves all things masculine in colors and all that. I couldn't describe myself in the least as female, except for my body. And now my fingers tell the story of my mother's womb while she carried me and what I was exposed to (or not exposed to).

I gotta say, sucks for me. I know JJ you said not ALL transexuals/transgenders fit this category, but honestly, if I didn't get the androgen wash in the womb, why the heck is my ID male? I mean, seriously -- and not trying to come across and mad at this (it's all science after all), but I'm feeling so down right now. Ever since I've faced this Gosh darned demon 3 years ago (I'm 40 now), I've been wondering if it's all in my head while hoping I'd get some physical proof. The digit ratio thing would have been something. I think you said it best JJ...it seems we can never get enough validation.

The science behind the digit ratio seems solid. So again, I'm really wondering what is really wrong with me. How can I say my identity was formed because my brain got the second male wash in the womb, when it is obvious from my index/ring finger lengths that my mother had no excess androgens washing over me. I am so tired of trying to figure this out...coming close to feeling "free" and then, now, feeling like the worst thing in the world because I have no explanation. And the proof that I see moving over the keyboard is that all was "normal" in the womb.

I don't honestly know how I can climb out of this particular hole. Please do not say that this doesn't matter, because it obviously does. To have struggled my entire life with TG feelings always repressing, constantly aware only to finally face it head-on when to do otherwise would have been to kill myself, now it comes to me having to face it all over again, only this time there's nothing but female hands, female womb, no explanation, no validation. And now, just emptiness.

[JJ]

Nick, the ratio is thought not to hold for all transpeople because the finger some women have more variation or at different times than others. It doesn't make you any less trans. the only thing that should bother you that much would be if an MRI also showed that you had a female brain. It;s not set in stone. Plus as said above there can be familial variations as well as differences in different geographical groups.

And you should have seen when my cis. daughter realized her hand are more masculine than most men! Since she carries her weight in a masculine way and has always been a tomboy but has no question at all about her gender identity she was miffed about it.

This is a difficult road we are on and we are often desperate for validation. But the only real validation is in your head. What you know to be so. Everything else is subject to variation and if you look outward for that validation then it will be a miserable roller coaster ride.

For all of us that voice sneaks in at times "What if this is all in my head?" or "I'm so imaginative, what if it's all my imagination?". I still have to fight that at times and I can clearly see 60 years of evidence I was born a man inside. The truth is that there will never be enough proof-all I really need is to have faith in my own judgment and ignore those doubts.

Easier said than done but I really think it is the only way that works. No one will have all the markers or characteristics. We are just too diverse for that.

[Guest Nick A]

JJ, thanks for your response. It helps.