Any Other Bigendered?

[Guest Zoddy]

I found the Bigender Wikipedia article quoting a study which claims that out of the transgendered persons interviewed, lower than 3% of the males described them as bigendered and less than 8% of women. Note that these percentages includes cross-dressers...

Here it is: http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=cftg-02-02

I don't identify as a crossdresser at all. I don't have the slightest idea why crossdressers and bigendered were grouped together.

Personally I find each gender to have something wonderful to present, and that there is one need to stick with one or the other.

I don't have a tendency to mix male/female feelings and/or behavior. I do aim to transition though, to become complete.

Once I started to accept my female side, I started to get much better; did things that felt natural to me even if not considered appropriate for a biological male.

I must admit that I wonder how I would think if the world was different, since right now I don't mind just switching to one or the other. All I know is that I certainly to not want to be the genderless androgynous type.

I even searched the forums and couldn't find a lot of people just mentioning the term "bigender".

Are we really that low in number?

[Guest Virginia_Blossom]

I self-identify as an androgyne, more specifically bigender, and believe we are an extremley small subset of the transgender community. I am not sure if it is a violation of site rules to post a link to another support group, but there is a flegling bigender community at http://www.bigender.net

Virginia

[Guest Virginia_Blossom]

(sidebar)

I have not met any bigenders who identify as crossdressers.

Blossom

[JJ]

That article really helped me-thank you!

I just recently realized and accepted that I have always felt male and it has made all the difference in my mental health but the past few days I've also been confused and struggling. I know I feel more male than female but there are female aspects of my personality that I enjoy and I find I am not ready to completely give up my female identity.

My thought processes are male as are most of my pastimes and all of my fantasies and daydreams but I like my nails and hair long and makeup. My clothes are mostly neutral. But I do like wearing long gowns when I'm not wearing jeans or pants and a t-shirt. I thought maybe all of this was because I spent decades in denial trying to be feminine and subject to all that estrogen as well, but the bi-gender fits so much better really. I identify within as more male than female but the female is there. A part of me.

I actually enjoy seeing the world from a full spectrum

But I'm still finding my way and I'm confused

So what are other people's experience? What do you think?

JJ

[Guest]

Hi Zoddy,

My personal experience says the number is higher. Perhaps it's my own bias. But of the TS support group that I attend, about 20% identifiy as "two-spirit"; I also belong to a crossdresser club - where many, if not most, of the members cross-dress to be able to express their femine side - isn't that a form of bi-gender too?

As it's been said here many times, gender is a wide spectrum with people who fall all along the line. The main thing is to accept yourself as you are, and try to find a way to make that work with the world at large.

Love, Kat

[Guest Lynnx]

I've used the word bigendered to describe myself. I believe my soul to be 45% girl and 55% boy, though i was born female. I do identify with boys and not girls. That 45% must include certain traits and the socialization that comes from being born female.

I like the word "two spirit", though the American Indians are very protective of there culture, so i don't use it.

[Guest ricka]

I agree with Kat, I think our numbers are higher. There is still a prevailing belief that gender identity is primarily binary---you are either male or female, or at least that should be one's goal in transitioning to be one or the other. While I identify primarily as a female I don't have a problem also having male characteristics, which on a physical and emotional level are less evident than my female characteristics. My "personality and body shape are predominantly female. Dressing as a woman came later, almost as an afterthought when I came to an awareness that I was a 'two spirit" person. I do have a friend who is a cross-dresser and describes him/herself as a male and female trapped inside a male body. It's kinda like having two friends in one body---and I adore them both. Incidently he/she identify as heterosexual depending on who is out.

I suppose it could be very confusing if your gender identity framework is binary, but if you accept yourself as an "inbetweener" meaning you are both I think the confusion would abate.

Hugs, Ricka

[Guest Virginia_Blossom]

I have seen definitions of bigender that include crossdressers, but think the differences in crossdressers, two souls and bigenders are greater than the similarities.

Wish I could quote the source, but read recently that bigenders comprise less than 5.5% of the transgender population (less than 3% of bio-males and less than 8% of bio-females).

Virginia

[Guest Penelope]

That article really helped me-thank you!

I just recently realized and accepted that I have always felt male and it has made all the difference in my mental health but the past few days I've also been confused and struggling. I know I feel more male than female but there are female aspects of my personality that I enjoy and I find I am not ready to completely give up my female identity.

My thought processes are male as are most of my pastimes and all of my fantasies and daydreams but I like my nails and hair long and makeup. My clothes are mostly neutral. But I do like wearing long gowns when I'm not wearing jeans or pants and a t-shirt. I thought maybe all of this was because I spent decades in denial trying to be feminine and subject to all that estrogen as well, but the bi-gender fits so much better really. I identify within as more male than female but the female is there. A part of me.

I actually enjoy seeing the world from a full spectrum

But I'm still finding my way and I'm confused

So what are other people's experience? What do you think?

JJ

I am not ready to give up my male identity but I feel that I contain a female one as well.

Hugs,

Penelope

[Guest Zoddy]

Wish I could quote the source, but read recently that bigenders comprise less than 5.5% of the transgender population (less than 3% of bio-males and less than 8% of bio-females).

It was in the two links of my first post Virginia.

Currently I identify perfectly in-between male and female; so 50/50.

That's how I feel about it, but my psychological characteristics say otherwise. For instance, I don't feel sadness, stress, anxiety, anger or even fear (having no fears doesn't mean you'll go and do something stupid for no reason).

But more than anything, I'm someone with an incredible level of logic. It just kept growing over the years and from what I know, this isn't the most girlish feature someone can have.

While I know clothes are important when it comes to passing, especially for bigendered to be able to swap between male/female, they don't really mean much to me. I spend maybe 100 bucks a year at most on clothes. All that stuff you girls put on your face, like creams, makeup, or whatever... well I don't want any of it; ever. To me, beauty is natural, and not a mask of hazardous stuff you place on your face.

So, how does clothing come into play in all this? It does not define one's gender identity.

When it comes to bigenderism and crossdressing it's the the rest: non-binary.

I know that I have absolutely no problem hanging out with only guys or only girls. If I look "gay" because of that, well so be it. It feels so much better to be yourself.

[Guest Virginia_Blossom]

LOL, I KNEW I saw it somewhere!

I am absolutely thrilled to see some life in this area of the Playground!

It is extremely important to me to be accepted by others in the gender I chose to present myself. I am equally dysphoric about my maleness & femaleness and live my life like a slowly swinging pendulum, getting edgy in either extreme or combining the two into a confusing, genderlessly unidentifiable blend. I like my body, my beanpole build and the small breasts I have developed from HRT. My eyebrows are groomed. My hair is styled masculinely long. My nails are active length with clear polish buffed to remove the shine. My body is shaved and I am having my facial hair removed. Nothing that locks in the way I present. Voice, mannerisms and clothes are all important to expressing my feelings of gender.

Virginia

[JJ]

For me the hardest part of this journey is accepting that there is no box I'll fir into-that the answers depend more on who is answering them than the question. The masculine part of me wants things defined-wants answers.

But this forum led me to say okay I'll accept this duality and enjoy it. It has made me uneasy to slip between genders till now. I was so uneasy with all the masculine thoughts and actions that I couldn't really enjoy them. Once I identified as male I felt confused and uneasy about my female side-which wasn't going away. Now I want to just smile and dance between them. I figure I'm about 70% male-but that other 30% adds so much to the picture!

Thank you to each of you for sharing and for helping me to find my way though this maze. I'm not sure I'd have made it thhrough-I know it would have taken a lot longer-without the courage and love all of you have shown here.

I hope the new gender questions that seem to be arising more often in public articles lead to the day when our society can value and appreciate the unique perspective each of us has to offer.

The latest studies indicate we really have made significant strides toward a more compassionate and tolerant society. Of course there will always be the narrow minded who spew hate but the more they are seen as the real deviants the less voice they will have. Things are So much better than they were 50 years ago when I was young- almost a different world and seem to be moving forward at an increasing pace so I have hope. Even in this narrow minded small town I see an altogether different attitude among many of the high school kids.

So maybe our days in the light will come sooner than expected.

Blessings to all!

JJ

[Guest Elizabeth K]

JJ and Blossom and all...

I am so glad to see this discussion. there are so many of us here that don't have that duality of spirit, except by default. I once thought there was either a gender dysphoria of transseuality (wanting to match brain and body finally) OR those who were androgynous. Mia was the first person I got close to who was definately female part of the time, male other times, androgynous. I was amazed if the truth be know, because it wasn't like anything I have ever experienced.

I playacted for a great period of time. Although I consider myself female I know what it is to live male. I didn't ever really like to be male though - and therin is the difference I think.

But Bigendered? I assume that is not the same as androgynous? Maybe male AND female, as opposed to male OR female.

I wonder if I could have just lived my life as both genders... I guess not.

And 'two-spirited?' Yes - Native American useage, but I don't think it means any more that 'always male and always female' at the same time. It was considered a ligitamate way of life. Often these people were considered sacred as they were united in one person, the masculine and the feminine. They apparently were never one way, then the other at different times. They just were both.

Am is showing my ignorance here? Help me...

Lizzy

[Guest Virginia_Blossom]

Well, this is just one person’s small view of the world. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone and am always open to learn.

I view bigenderism as a subset of, rather than distinct from, Androgyny, one of many non-binary ways to express gender. Just as cisgenders and transexuals express their gender as male or female, bigenders express their gender as male AND female. Different from the concept of “two soul” which implies a separateness of the two, bigender is an expression of a solitary self. Not a man in a woman’s body. Not a woman in a man’s body. Not a blend of the two. Not another way to feel complete in one’s gender. We are both a man and a woman trapped in whatever natal body we happen to be given. We are comfortable as either, but only complete when we are able to express themselves as both.

Virginia

[Guest Emily Ray]

This is a wonderful topic. I suppose if you want to be exacting with gender expectations I could consider myself bigendered as there were a great many things that I did and would enjoy doing in the future such a shooting sports and home construction. But, on a relational level between the sexes I was never comfortable in the male aggresor role. I have asked two women our in my life. The first at 19 my ex-wife and one at 34 that lasted 2.5 years. Just not me and so I choose to identify with MtF Transsexual. While at The Minnesota Transgender Health Conference I was exposed to natal women and men who preferred no pronouns neither he or she, sir or mam while presenting in gg case as a tomboy and the gm case as a man with secondary sex characteristics of a woman. It was very interesting to hear their story and expectations for society, but I claim no understanding of their position.

Huggs,

[Guest Zoddy]

I agree completely with that definition. Although I cannot be sure about the distinction from androgyny as the article on wikipedia is self-contradicting.

Still I think it's important that we define everything clearly so that everyone can see where they are in the gender spectrum, and not only have a vague idea because of imprecise definitions. For example the definition of transsexual is very clear.

[Guest Emily Ray]

One of the well known theories from Social Psychology which studies primarily human interaction at the small group or 2 people level speaks about how we use stereotypes and schema to deal with common every day situations we learn them from our parents and other important people in our youth and our past experience. The human brain does one thing with absolute precision and flexibility our computer programers dream about. Pattern recognition. As a teller at a gas station I watch a customer aproach me from the phone booth outside and he asks me for change handing me five dollars I am not going to give him five ones; I will give him three ones and eight quarters and look to see if that is enough for him to make his call. I don't have to think about it. I can recognize those patterns from personal experience and observations. I react with out thought based on the stereotype of a man asking to change a five after leaving a phone booth wants quarters not dollars. Stereotypes are not inherently bad, but they do play a role in how we move and interact with ninety five percent of the people we are in contact with while taking advantages of the thought power to deal with more complicated issues. We have all driven through a town we habitually drive through and upon reaching our destination have know memory of making the required stops and turn on long our path, but had a child stepped out in front of us or a ball roll in to the street we would have remembered and reacted appropriately for the new pattern in less time than it takes the eye to make those minute movements the eye is constantly making to refresh the data stream leading to upper level thought.

When the Androgyne and Genderqueer or Nongendered present themselves I think it is unfair to expect others to recognize the purposely mixed and somewhat identical presentation correctly and to respond appropriately to their individual preference which they themselves admit is ambiguous. I can't tell a tomboy from a genderqueer and I am immersed in the sub culture. It is totally unacceptable to want ambiguity freedom annnd appropriate responses from strangers. It is an impossibility. I feel for your pain at being miss gendered. I really do. There are however limits to human behavior that just can't be broken simply because we want it to. Or we think it should be. We are human and that means something based in fact defined in language and shared by us all.

That is JMHO

With love