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It Gets Confusing!


Guest Elizabeth K

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Guest Elizabeth K

Sexual orientation labels dont apply to the transgendered.

Let me use myself as an example: I am MTF. I am separated but I am still married to a natal female. I am still shown male on my birth certificate - and I am pre-op. After I have my operation in my state I am able to amend my birth certificate to female. BUT although we would be a married couple with both showing female on our birth certificate. Louisiana law lets us stay married. Is that a lesbian relationship? Could be as it's woman on woman sex.

But I DON"T have to change my birth certificate. I would legally be male but have female sexual equipment - still having woman to woman sex. But it is hetherosexual by law.

Say I have my birth certificate amended, and in this state I can then legally marry a man. We would have female to male sex, and we would be a hetherosexual couple.

If I dont have my birth certificate changed after SRS, in this state I cannot marry a male - but I could marry a woman, so what am I then?

Say I want to marry another transperson - a t-man. We can get married if NEITHER has our birth certificate changed or if we BOTH get it changed. But the sex is still different - because most t-men cannot function like a natal male - but whatever it is - it would be hetherosexual by law. But what if only one of us has our birth certificate changed, we couldn't get married although our sex is still basically man and woman - just not legally.

Say I want to marry another t-girl - and neither of us get our birth cetificate changed - woman to woman sex - but both of us are legally male - so we are gay men even though neither has male genitalia. So one or the other of us has to change our birth certificate to legally get married - even though we would both be the bride at the wedding - apparently so to everyone. And our woman to woman sex would legally be heterosexual.

And of course, if both have the birth certificate changed - neither of us are male - cannot marry here in my state - but a lesbian relationship again!

See what happens? Impossible to appliy labels to transpeople.

I bet I left some things out as well!

Lizzy

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Guest Alex Blitzen

:huh: i think my brain may have just exploded... thanks lol

i try not to label my sexual orientation specifically for that reason :lol:

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Guest NatashaJade

Lizzy,

And you wonder why we cause lawmakers such fits that they resort to the old bathroom canard to keep us from having rights? Someday it won't matter one way or the other. Either good or evil will triumph and we'll see how we fit into the mix. At least we can have this conversation today, though. We've come such a long way I can only hope good will prevail and the irrational idiots will be driven back into their caves where they can wait to go the way of the do-do.

luv

Gin

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Guest Emily Ray

Elizabeth, you have out done yourself with that completely logical example of why government should stay out of panties, underwear, and bedrooms !

Huggs,

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Guest Donna Jean
:huh: i think my brain may have just exploded... thanks lol

i try not to label my sexual orientation specifically for that reason :lol:

LOL...lol

Alex, I ponder this, too....

Here...let me add to that...

In my state (Ohio) one of only 3 in the country that one cannot change their birth certificate...

So (DANG) technically, I'll always be male...

Even post-op and fully functioning female...Ohio still wants to call me a man....even if I can no longer write my name in the snow!

Now If I wanted to marry a man I would have to go somewhere where same-sex marriage is performed.....

Even if I were a fully functional female..I could marry a woman...

So, if that were to happen, we could BOTH be the bride!

But, Ohio being the socially conscious, liberal, left leaning state that it is, has decided to cut us some slack...

We can have our drivers license say "Female"

How cool is that?

So, my BC says "male...my DL says "female"...my passport says "male" my library card says "female...

The heck with it!

Donna Jean

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Guest i is Sam :-)

i'm single, i was bi before and i'm bi now, so nice and simple.

i suppose technically i'd call myself pan now, but it's not like i would have refused a relationship with someone who was something other than male or female, i just didn't know the term.

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Guest i is Sam :-)

oh and in the UK when i officially change my gender in two years, I will be entirely legally female, and will be able to marry a man but not a woman, if you are already married you have to get a divorce before you're allowed to change your gender, in order to prevent same sex marriage from taking place. same goes for civil unions in reverse, and straight couple can't have one, so if i got one with a guy tomorrow, i'd have to get it dissolved in 2 years and then we could get married.

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Guest ~Brenda~

Needless to say that the Law is still very arcane.

Be who you are and love who you love. Law does cannot ever dictate love.

Lizzy hon :) (and I say this with love) Sweetie, you think too much sometimes :)

HUGS

Brenda

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Guest Lee-Asher Geo-James

My sexual orientation will never change. It will always be the same and I am glad for that :lol:

I am Pansexual. Before I knew what the term was I said "I love everybody." I didn't know it officially, but deep down I knew there were people that may not identify with either gender or maybe with both. Later on I figured out names for it. Still learning :)

When I figured out what Pan was I just went with that. But I am kinda thinking about just saying "I love everybody" as my Sexual Orientation from now, getting sick of labels :lol: But overall I love everyone. :) I won't turn someone down just because of their gender expression.

Too bad that the government can't see <3 + <3 = Marriage.

Labels are silly anyways. :)

I love how you think Lizzy!!

It's an amazing thing to be able to sit there and just think. I love that!!! :) Please keep posting things like this because I really really look forward to these!! :)

*hugs*

LeeAsher

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Guest Donna Jean
oh and in the UK when i officially change my gender in two years, I will be entirely legally female, and will be able to marry a man but not a woman, if you are already married you have to get a divorce before you're allowed to change your gender, in order to prevent same sex marriage from taking place. same goes for civil unions in reverse, and straight couple can't have one, so if i got one with a guy tomorrow, i'd have to get it dissolved in 2 years and then we could get married.

See, Sam.....

That doesn't happen over here....

They go by the gender on the Marriage Cert.

So, if some one who is married male & female and the male goes MTF..the marriage is never dissolved...

Huggs

Donna Jean

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Guest NatashaJade
See, Sam.....

That doesn't happen over here....

They go by the gender on the Marriage Cert.

So, if some one who is married male & female and the male goes MTF..the marriage is never dissolved...

Huggs

Donna Jean

It must drive the anti-marriage equality people nuts that we can have same sex marriages and they can do nothing about it (for now...). I've often wondered if the sanctity of marriage people would come and try to tell my wife and I we would have to get a divorce. I'd fight that one to the Supreme Court. Let them force me to divorce and I'd spit on each and every one of them. Fortunately, I don't need to do that just yet. *phew* I'll save the fight for another day and an issue that needs fighting now.

luv

Gin

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Guest Donna Jean

Gin....

I've always been intrigued by these sort of things...

The letter of the law...

For instance...

At 20 years old ya can't drink...but at 1 minute before your birth hour you can go to the bathroom and when you come back you can have that beer...

Or if you can legally marry same sex in San Fransisco...

12 inches outside the city limits you can't get married...move over 12" and bingo! You can...

It's all too weird for me!

Donna Jean

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Guest Hoslers_wife

I confess I had a very strong lemon drop on my break but what the two of you just did to my eyes was NOT FAIR! lol. Kinda made me dizzy.

Lizzy my dear,

Normally, I love the way you disect things but THIS, this honey is confusing. As intelligent as I am I read that and went, DOOO WHAATT?? lol.

I understand your point though and it's definetely a brain teaser but at the end of the day your no different than anyone else. Were all confused by love and identity to a certain extent.

hmmm, this kinds plays into the argument I've been having with myself. (yes I argue with myself) Am I gay or straight? Pan? Thats too vague for me.

OOOOH, I know. I'm NICKSEXUAL. :-P

Love,

Chelsey Hosler

Sexual orientation labels dont apply to the transgendered.

Let me use myself as an example: I am MTF. I am separated but I am still married to a natal female. I am still shown male on my birth certificate - and I am pre-op. After I have my operation in my state I am able to amend my birth certificate to female. BUT although we would be a married couple with both showing female on our birth certificate. Louisiana law lets us stay married. Is that a lesbian relationship? Could be as it's woman on woman sex.

But I DON"T have to change my birth certificate. I would legally be male but have female sexual equipment - still having woman to woman sex. But it is hetherosexual by law.

Say I have my birth certificate amended, and in this state I can then legally marry a man. We would have female to male sex, and we would be a hetherosexual couple.

If I dont have my birth certificate changed after SRS, in this state I cannot marry a male - but I could marry a woman, so what am I then?

Say I want to marry another transperson - a t-man. We can get married if NEITHER has our birth certificate changed or if we BOTH get it changed. But the sex is still different - because most t-men cannot function like a natal male - but whatever it is - it would be hetherosexual by law. But what if only one of us has our birth certificate changed, we couldn't get married although our sex is still basically man and woman - just not legally.

Say I want to marry another t-girl - and neither of us get our birth cetificate changed - woman to woman sex - but both of us are legally male - so we are gay men even though neither has male genitalia. So one or the other of us has to change our birth certificate to legally get married - even though we would both be the bride at the wedding - apparently so to everyone. And our woman to woman sex would legally be heterosexual.

And of course, if both have the birth certificate changed - neither of us are male - cannot marry here in my state - but a lesbian relationship again!

See what happens? Impossible to appliy labels to transpeople.

I bet I left some things out as well!

Lizzy

LOL...lol

Alex, I ponder this, too....

Here...let me add to that...

In my state (Ohio) one of only 3 in the country that one cannot change their birth certificate...

So (DANG) technically, I'll always be male...

Even post-op and fully functioning female...Ohio still wants to call me a man....even if I can no longer write my name in the snow!

Now If I wanted to marry a man I would have to go somewhere where same-sex marriage is performed.....

Even if I were a fully functional female..I could marry a woman...

So, if that were to happen, we could BOTH be the bride!

But, Ohio being the socially conscious, liberal, left leaning state that it is, has decided to cut us some slack...

We can have our drivers license say "Female"

How cool is that?

So, my BC says "male...my DL says "female"...my passport says "male" my library card says "female...

The heck with it!

Donna Jean

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Guest NatashaJade
I confess I had a very strong lemon drop on my break but what the two of you just did to my eyes was NOT FAIR! lol. Kinda made me dizzy.

Lizzy my dear,

Normally, I love the way you disect things but THIS, this honey is confusing. As intelligent as I am I read that and went, DOOO WHAATT?? lol.

I understand your point though and it's definetely a brain teaser but at the end of the day your no different than anyone else. Were all confused by love and identity to a certain extent.

hmmm, this kinds plays into the argument I've been having with myself. (yes I argue with myself) Am I gay or straight? Pan? Thats too vague for me.

OOOOH, I know. I'm NICKSEXUAL. :-P

Love,

Chelsey Hosler

You know, Chelsey. I keep telling my wife that she wont be a lesbian after SRS. She'll still be in love with the same person and since she didn't fall in love with a woman to begin with, the little change to me doesn't have any real impact on her sexuality. She's still trying to wrap her brain around that one.

luv

Gin

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Guest Patsy
Elizabeth, you have out done yourself with that completely logical example of why government should stay out of panties, underwear, and bedrooms !

Huggs,

Motion seconded....

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Guest misha1144

Lizzy,

I read your letter and feel your frustration. All I can think of is "labels". I refuse to let someone else label me!! Am I a transsexual? Yes because I chose to identify myself as one! Am I pansexual (just learned this one) yes because I chose to identify myself as one. I really don't give a (you know what) about my sexuality label or my gender label to the rest of the world! I am me. Yes, the government can't label me correctly. But I REFUSE to accept their label of me. Frankly, at this point, I don't even know what label I would want them to put on my card!

Whatever, thinking too much, but with love and hugs, Misha

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Guest D.V. Faust

This is why I ignore legalities concerning marriage, which I can do unless the highly unlikely event that I seriously consider getting married comes up. Keeps things from going past intricate and into total scattered madness.

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Guest Jay_son

I dont wanna appear argumentative, but I am really struggling to understand this subject, I hope we can debate this without conflict, surely thats what a forum is about?

"Sexual orientation labels dont apply to the transgendered."

So does this mean I should not be considering myself a hetrosexual male? Because that is how I have see myself.

The whole birth certificate thing? I think we all share the same opinions on wanting to be seen as our chosen gender, regardless of if we have changed our birth certificates or not? AND fail to understand what birth certificates have to do with our sexual orientation, or gender come to that, we are what we are.

Having said all that, I only ever thought there were 3 kinds of sexual orientation, Gay, Bi and straight....Pansexual is another thing I cant get my head round, to me that is the same as Bi...IE: if you are with someone who is androgynous then in my head that is pretty much the same as being bi ? Anything outside of the 3 sexual orientations I mentioned I get proper lost...I see it all as very black and white. :huh:

I understand Pansexual means "One who can love sexuality in many forms. Like bisexuality, but even more fluid" to me this still bi? <proper confused>

Also, if you are MtF and chose to stay with a woman, how does that not make you lesbian or bi? I understand this would not make your partner anything different as they are just sticking by the person they love, BUT should your relationship end, and your partner BEFORE your transition was striaght, they would more than likely go with another man?

I really hope none of the above has offended anyone, I am trying to get my head around all this.

:)

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Guest Donna Jean
I dont wanna appear argumentative, but I am really struggling to understand this subject, I hope we can debate this without conflict, surely thats what a forum is about?

"Sexual orientation labels dont apply to the transgendered."

So does this mean I should not be considering myself a hetrosexual male? Because that is how I have see myself.

We see ourselves as we need...

You are hetro male......I'm Lesbian...so be it.

The whole birth certificate thing? I think we all share the same opinions on wanting to be seen as our chosen gender, regardless of if we have changed our birth certificates or not? AND fail to understand what birth certificates have to do with our sexual orientation, or gender come to that, we are what we are.

BC's have nothing to do with our sexual orientation...It's just here for the point of people labeling us where a label is not wanted or needed...

Yes, we are what we are.

But, just like the men wanting certain things and the women wanting certain things to help their need for affirmation...ie..clothes, presentation...etc, the Birth Certificate is just one more thing that people want to read correctly.

Having said all that, I only ever thought there were 3 kinds of sexual orientation, Gay, Bi and straight....Pansexual is another thing I cant get my head round, to me that is the same as Bi...IE: if you are with someone who is androgynous then in my head that is pretty much the same as being bi ? Anything outside of the 3 sexual orientations I mentioned I get proper lost...I see it all as very black and white. :huh:

I understand Pansexual means "One who can love sexuality in many forms. Like bisexuality, but even more fluid" to me this still bi? <proper confused>

Also, if you are MtF and chose to stay with a woman, how does that not make you lesbian or bi? I understand this would not make your partner anything different as they are just sticking by the person they love, BUT should your relationship end, and your partner BEFORE your transition was striaght, they would more than likely go with another man?

This is really a question for the MTF's wife....

Some will find it difficult to stay when you transition...My wife says emphatically "I AM NOT A LESBIAN!" and there is no further conversation..she sees it woman/woman...

Others here have a wife that sticks through and just accepts the MTF as the person that they married, albeit, somewhat changed...

Most partners would stay with a spouse that was disfigured in a war or bad accident...they remain the same person...

As do most of us, although we're harder to stay with, for some reason...

I really hope none of the above has offended anyone, I am trying to get my head around all this.

I can't speak for everyone, but, I'm not offended in the least...

It's good conversation with a lot of gray areas....

Needs discussed!

:)

Donna Jean

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Guest sarah f

WOW Lizzy that is alot to think about. Hoepfully someday it wont matter what sex you are to get married to the person you love no matter what state you are in.

Love,

Sarah F

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