Homophobic Or Not?

[blackkatsen]

Well, I've just been searching around the forums and I noticed something interesting. It seems that people here like to use the term homophobic to describe someone who isn't supportive or acceptive of a gay lifestyle. I've seen transphobic used in a similar manner. But a homophobic person is someone with homophobia. Homophobia is the fear of gay people of the gay lifestyle. My point is why are people calling these other people names like homophobic? Just because you don't support a gay lifestyle doesn't mean you fear gay people. The same thing with transsexuals. When I think about it, it seems like you are degrading yourself when you call other people homophobic and other terms when they're not necessarily true.

Anyway, I just thought that was sort of interesting and I wanted to post about it. I would also like to hear what you think about it.

[Guest Blake]

Yeah, I get what you mean. One of my friends is against gay marriage, and is against my being transgender, but she's also very kind to me, so I feel awful to call her 'homophobic'.

The word homophobic [and transphobic] has evolved into a slang term for anyone who is against gay/trans people, and our 'lifestyle', for lack of better words. I know I'm guilty I've refering to people who... disagree with my as homophobic or transphobic. But you're right. Homophobia means fear, or hatred, against LGBTs. When I hear the word homophobia, I think of people like the Westboro Baptist Church [extremist hate group that lives one state away from us ], not people who are simply against gay marriage or what not.

In short, you're right, and I agree with you >>

- Blake

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Blackatsen,

It’s just a ‘term’ used to describe somebody who hates, dislike, disapproves or opposes gay people and or their life style…The original use stems from the belief that people who beat up or strongly resent gay people had something to hide – their own 'homoerotic' feelings...

I guess if I break down the word - homos’= ‘same’ in Greek and phobia= ‘fear of’ and thinking about it ‘fear of sameness’ sounds a bit ‘queer’ to me….Ummm but then that’s just me…

But in saying that…it’s also true, people who beat up gay and transgender people don’t ‘fear’ the people they are laying into …Perhaps homosexualmis['gay hater' or for those who find homosexuality disgusting -homosexualmisia] transgendermis['trans hater' just add ‘ia’ for disgusting] are better terms…who knows!!!

Anyway whatever, it’s all ‘Greek’[and Latin] to me…So I would suggest we just “Ventis secundis, tene cursum” [go with the flow]…and “Totum dependeat” [let it all hang out] in other words ‘Do worry about it!’

Metta Jendar

[Guest Michelle M]

We use labels as generalizations because we don't want to go into specifics. A person that is terrified of trans people, a person that doesn't accept trans people, a person that murders trans people. They're all doing different things, but they all fall into the category of transphobic. Technically only the first one is transphobic. Generalizations make language and the thought process of classifying people easier. Without labels, we'd just be human.

[Guest Leah1026]

My point is why are people calling these other people names like homophobic? Just because you don't support a gay lifestyle doesn't mean you fear gay people. The same thing with transsexuals. When I think about it, it seems like you are degrading yourself when you call other people homophobic and other terms when they're not necessarily true.

You're missing the larger point. They don't just disaprove, they have a knee jerk reaction against us that's based in prejudice and stereotypes. How new are you to transition? When I was new to transition years ago I had a pie in the sky view of things, that all would be wonderful if I explained things, if I educated folks. Guess what? Because of prejudice that isn't possible. As sson as you mention the T word (transsexual) their eyes glaze over and their brain shuts down. Now some of you may think I'm exaggerating, but give it a few years and you will see. In my opinion 95% of cisgendered folks can't get it. They are trapped in their prejudiced world views, and despite how hard you try, you can't change them. In 5 years I think I can count the number of people who have "turned" to seeing things more openly on one hand. The good news is most folks today don't let their discomfort manifest itself in violence. Many even APPEAR to be accepting when in fact they're just tolerating you. They don't respect you and never will.

So don't think homophobia and transphobia don't exist because they do. And in my opinion transphobia is worse because of "othering". Once they know you're status you're no longer a man or woman, you're a "transsexual", meaning neither and you're treated as such. From personal experience I can tell you how frustrating this is. Other women at work (I transitioned on the job) maintain a distance, they won't be intimate with me like they are with other women. Not all are like that, but many/most are. It may eventually cause me to change jobs and possibly move. The funny thing is at the same time as they treat me that way, my patients (I work in a hospital) accept me totally. I'm just the woman that's there to care for them. The difference between the two is amazing.

When people allow prejudice to rule their world view, when they are completely closed to being educated to the facts, when they try to marginalize you because they fear you, that is a phobia on their part. That kind of illogical, irrational behavior directed at people born transsexual is transphobia.

Look at the comments section of these stories.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4526582&page=1

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4536604&page=1

Things are getting better, but the pace is only slightly faster than that of a glacier.

[blackkatsen]

I think there needs to be a new term. Maybe an umbrella term for people that don't like transsexuals or gay people. If you were to go out into society and start rambling about "homophobic people" all those people are just going to think your stupid. They're not afraid of you, they don't fear you at all. They just don't like or support your actions.

I don't doubt that if you mention to someone you're a transsexual "their brain shuts down" and that type of thing. But when you think about, put yourself in their shoes kind of thing, they're just trying to understand you. A boy that's a girl? A pregnant man? You're being different than normal. On a very high level of our sociality. For some reason there's a big difference in our genders when it comes to being social. So there's a big shock when your not normal. Transsexuals aren't normal. I'm not trying to insult or anything, but its not normal. It never will be, unless everyone becomes transsexual.

I don't think people are necessarily being prejudice because they don't accept transsexuals either. Most people haven't really thought through it a lot. It's still a new thing and there aren't a lot of transsexuals. As I said it's not really a normal thing yet. It's not common. People have to go and think about it and figure out if it's right or wrong or cool or not cool, or whatever. I don't think that all people aren't acceptive to the facts either. I don't think there's a whole lot of facts to present. Scientists haven't been able to fully show the differences in boys and girls brains. They may have some theories or results from experiments or tests but they don't have the final word, the convincing bit of information. Also, you can't full transition. You still have the same chromosomes, the same organs, and if you started late enough, the same bone structure. If you were to change all of that, maybe people would be more accepting. I don't know, at least they would if you had more on facts on brains.

[Guest Blake]

Look at the comments section of these stories.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4526582&page=1

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4536604&page=1

Well, I just looked at the comments on Beatie's story, and- don't get me wrong, Ashley, I still get what you're saying- but at the same time... yeah, those comments are unaccepting, but they are also downright hateful. I mean, I do understand that not everyone who doesn't accept transgender aren't always hateful, but... a lot of them seem to be that way. At the very least, there is a lack of respect going on, and that does strike me as hateful, even if it's not intended to be. I mean, Thomas Beatie went through what almost every FtM went though: the discomfort of being born with female genitals, but with an inner gender of a male. And now that he's finally acheived a body he's comfortable with, there are STILL people out there refering to him as 'she' and 'her'. I mean, that's tough. And even if the people saying these things don't mean it, it's still hurtful.

So I think you can be transphobic/homophobic without realizing it. It hurts not to be accepted because, as humans, we're social animals. And, yeah, homophobia means 'fear of homosexuals', but I think that hate and ignorance can very easily start with fear. Some people may be afraid to research transgender topics because to them, it's so 'out there' and 'weird', it scares them.

I mean, most people who aren't accepting of the transgendered are uninformed, and rather ignorant. And that's different. If they are not homophobic or transphobic, then they are usually willing to listen to the 'other side'; they're willing to get to know a transgendered person, and it is... kinda our job to educate them, I guess. But most of the people out there who disagree with LGBTs are not willing to listen to us. They are convinced that they're right, and we're wrong. Period. That's when I'd call them trans/homophobic.

Am I making any sense? Most people who are unaccepting are also unwilling to listen to us. They are afraid of us, because they are afraid of us tearing down strict social structures. And that fear turns to hate so easily . So... I agree with you... but I also think the majority of people who don't like LGBTs are also homo/transphobic, personally.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

- Blake

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Blackatsen,

You will find we already have a 'umbrella' term 'BIGOT' ...why try to reinvent the wheel? Gender Affirmation surgery has been going on for years...People have 'known' about transpeople for centuries - day in day out we are on TV, in films, on talkback radio, the newspapers etc etc...If people 'refuse' to accept that this congenital condition exist then to me they are 'bigots' till they can prove otherwise! Think about it! Throughout the ages people have 'feared' what they didn't understand...And where did that fear lead to...'VIOLENCE'

Listen B, I'm the 'female' version of me, on a slightly smaller than average male bone structure with the same old chromosomes and most people I know really don't give a sh*t about chromosomes ,if you look female/male then you are in most people's eyes...Chromosomes won't matter to most people unless they are the fundamentally religious type ...[Thank 'god' in good old Aotearoa they are few and far between...unlike in the US!] Who do you think been peddling the "you can't be female/male because of your chromosome!" crap? [especially when they can't win the argument on 'holy' grounds]...I'll give you ten guesses....

More facts on the transsexual 'brain' will not stop a bigot...I read somewhere "A bigot's mind is like the pupil of the eye...The more light one shines upon it...The more it will contract!"

All people have a right to their opinion, untill that is, their opinions become somewhat 'tangible' and ruin the lives of other people...

Metta Jendar

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

Disapproval does not necessarily equate phobic reactions but is often an indicator of such.

Most people who disapprove of transpeople's rights are transphobic. I've hardly seen the opposite. I would almost be inclined to say it doesn't exist, but I would be wrong.

And yes, fear often turns to hatred. It's unfortunate, but that's how xenophobia works. Not understanding breeds fear which breeds hate which breeds garbage like what I read in those comments.

On an unrelated note I think it's amazing that Thomas is pregnant and I wish him luck for a safe delivery.

[Guest Leah1026]

Kia Ora Blackatsen,I read somewhere "A bigot's mind is like the pupil of the eye...The more light one shines upon it...The more it will contract!"

I love it! I have to remember that one.

[blackkatsen]

Hey, you remembered Ashley! I haven't signed under that name for a while. I don't remember how long ago that was. Anyway

Hmm bigot seems to be a harsh word to mean. Especially when we can say we're all bigots. I mean to say that everyone has something that they believe that they aren't willing to exchange for some other set of beliefs. I was thinking about a more specific word.

I still don't agree or understand how disapproval of a lifestyle is always connected to fear. I understand and agree that it is possible that it could start as fear and then turn to dislike and possibly hatred. But I don't see how that is always the case. I think that people can have their own beliefs for their own reasons that don't necessarily mean fear. Even if the reason for the dislike stemmed from fear, it is unlikely that people that dislike the lifestyle actually fear it.

I believe we also need to put people into categories because there isn't only two groups. There's more than the supporters and the non-supporters. I think we have the Doers, the Supporters, the Neutrals, the Opposers, and the Haters. The Doers is self-explanatory. The Supporters don't do it and aren't involved, but they're cool with it and support it. The Neutrals don't really care and are fine either way. The Opposers don't support the action and may or may not try to get rid of it. They aren't violent, they just don't believe the action to be okay. The Haters are the violent ones. They want complete extermination of anyone who is involved int he activity. So the Haters are real bad ones here. As you said everyone can have their own opinion so the Opposers should be able to oppose. The Neutrals don't know what to think, so if they give you a strange look, well, who cares, move on.

[Guest Blake]

Heh, I did. ... is there another name you'd like me to call you? If so, I do apologize.

Well, anyways, you're right. Disapproval isn't always connected to fear. A good friend of mine is both against gay marriage, and she doesn't accept my gender oddity, but she's still friendly and kind to me. So yes, there are people out there who are nicely against gay marriage. So... I guess I'm not trying to say that ALL disapproval is connected to fear, but it seems like the majority of it is. and, understandably, I think the queer community is a bit more sensative on the topics of gay rights [yeah, I know- no duh xD], and so we, as a community, tend to be more... defensive, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

I guess the problem comes when LGBTs feel like their rights are being infringed upon [which I do believe they are, but that's a different story xD], and then they/we feel opressed. So, yes, there are people out there who are not homophobic, but are also not supportive of the gay community, and even around those people, the gay community tends to be very confrontational. For example, when someone comes up to the girl I like and tells her they're against gay marriage, she gets angry. She gets angry becase A) She feels it's unfair that other people can get married, but she may not be able too, and she's been bullied in the past for her sexual orientation. Because of this, she tends to be very uptight and defensive when people are against gay rights.

So I think part of the reason we are so quick to call people homophobic is to protect ourselves from being hurt. It's undeniable that the trans community has suffered from abuse from society, and... it's like that saying. "If a child grows with criticism, he learns to condemn." I think that because the trans community, and gay community, has been treated so poorly throughout the years, that we've sort of 'grown up' to be a tough community. I mean, I honestly think we're one of the most loving communties out there, but I fear that is because of how the world as treated us. We seem to have fears ourselves.

... Well, that was philisophical. I have to stop responding to these things at 3 in the morning xD

But essentially, you are right. So... The Opposers. There's a good label, right there :] I suppose a political term for those types of people is 'pro-traditional marriage'.

- Blake

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Blackatsen,

You have got to remember how this term ‘homophobia’ came about …The belief was[some might say 'fact is'] a number of closeted gay people were at the forefront when it came to opposing gay rights…the term was picked up by main stream gay activists and their ‘supporters’ and spread like wild fire –causing a short-sharp-shock which got the point across ‘homophobes[now ‘including’ heterosexists] don’t like gay people or their lifestyle!’…It just so happened many closeted opposers were 'connected' with the church...NEED I SAY MORE! Another one bites the dust or will do pretty soon no doubt...They are dropping like 'flies'...

There are many word in the English language that started life as one thing and gradually became distorted, ending up meaning something entirely different[Off hand I can’t think of any but no doubt as soon as I post this…examples will flood my mind]…And that B is life! take it or leave it, but it’s not going to change…

B do we really need more new words/labels? Most cisgender people are just coming to terms with ‘transsexual’ and even then many mistake it for ‘transvestite’…two entirely different meanings…

Another example of which we all seem to be guilty of is the term ‘trans’ woman which actually means ‘to go beyond or across’ woman[our target goal so to speak] …Well I’m not ‘beyond’ or opposite a woman…I consider myself a ‘parked’ one!…

I would suggest if for whatever reason you don’t feel comfortable with the terms ‘homophobia’ or homophobic’ then don’t use then…[ there's no gun to your head]...make up one of your own…Or you could say “This person because of [take your pick of reasons] disagrees with the transgender or gay lifestyle!” bit of a mouth full though… I personally prefer the short-sharp-shock ‘Transphobe’ myself...

There are two types of bigot B[and I mean bigot in it's true sense-the closed mind type]; Those who wear ‘boxing gloves’ - and those who don’t…I’m sure you get my drift…

Metta Jendar

[blackkatsen]

I don't really exactly what you call me. Ashley, Alice, Alex, James, Jack, or John, Hey look at that the girls names all start with A and the boys names start with J. You can call me AJ. or B. Or Any of the above. But that could be confusing...

Well, anyway, my original intent on posting this was because I felt that the LGBT community should speak a different way than they way they currently do. They say they're being treated unfairly by others and want to be treated nicely, but then go back and use names like homophobic, transphobic, bigot and others. I'm just saying that I don't think that helps at all. Furthermore, everyone has the own opinion and reason for his opinion that you may not know.

[Guest Ryles_D]

One of the problems is that -phillic (love) and -phobic (fear) tend to be considered antonyms of each other, that fear and hate go hand & hand. Which I know is false. I like spiders, they're fascinating creatures, they still scare me.

I've never liked homophobia meaning someone that's against it. It means someone that's afraid of them. Of course, the two can happen in the same person. I also hate that not wanting to get called gay makes you homophobic (I complained that wearing a rainbow, which I think should mean ALL diversity, gets you called gay- and someone yelled at me for being anti-gay). A gay man not wanting to be called straight or bi doesn't make him hetero- or biphobic, why does not wanting to be called something I'm not make me a bad person?

Is there a suffix for 'hates'? That'd be more appropriate. A prefix might be ok, too, but homo- tends to be a prefix and that'd be confusing.

[Guest Blake]

Is there a suffix for 'hates'? That'd be more appropriate. A prefix might be ok, too, but homo- tends to be a prefix and that'd be confusing.

The only suffix I can find is - misia. Like the word 'iatromisia' means a hatred for doctors and the word 'logomisia' means a hatred for some types of words, or a word.

So... homomisia? Even that doesn't make much sense, because 'homo' is the latin root for same, so that could only mean 'hatred of the same type of something'. Then again, it is simply slang, and slang is rarely grammatically correct.

.... yeah, I'm word nut >_>

- Blake