Are Opponents On The Run?

[Guest SusanKG]

Or, a less charitable Title, Has someone turned on a light and the cockroaches are headed for cover? A column by Dahlia Lithwick in the June 28, 2010 Newsweek (page 33) Titled "The Fear Factor", "Why gay-rights opponents won't testify" raises interesting points. The gist of the column is that witnesses in gay-rights cases fear reprisals. The U.S. Supreme Court blocked a judge's decision to allow TV cameras to cover the January hearing about the state referendum to ban gay mariage. Another Supreme Court hearing was held to block the release of the names of signers of a petition in Washington state designed to counteract a state law allowing benefits to domestic partners, using as an argument the purported harassment of supporters of California's Proposition 8.

I in no way support or advocate the use of harassment, threat or actual criminal and violent acts against the opponents of the transgendered community or the gay community, and their attacks against personal live styles, beliefs or practices such as same sex marriage, domestic partner benefits, personal living arrangements and other private matters. But I do not concern myself much about them and possible ramifications back to them. It is my belief that these attacks on my rights, on your rights, and on the rights of millions of Americans in themselves at times constitute violence and extreme violations of civil and human rights.

At the risk of using a quote I don't recall the source of - "Sow not in anger, least you reap in tears." It sounds almost biblical; that I am not an expert on, but it is I think very applicable here. A shorter version is "Paybacks are a bear!"

Susan Kay

[Guest Ashley C.]

While opponents of LGBT rights certainly deserve backlash for their point of view, I think intimidating witnesses in court cases crosses a line, and it's certainly very illegal. I can be a pretty vindictive person, and I've been known to say a lot of bad things about anti-LGBT advocates, but witness intimidation and other under-the-table tactics aren't the way for us and our allies to accomplish our goals--history has proved that (MLK, Gandhi). Revenge will be very sweet when it comes one day, but it's going to have to come through the legal system, for better or worse. It's our job as advocates and allies to fight fair and keep our faith in the judicial process, for better or worse. Leave the shady dealings to our opponents, so the fallout from their eventual defeat will be even greater, and we'll look all the better for taking the high road.

[Guest Sam_P]

I had noticed this too! If they hold such ridiculous beliefs they should at least come out with it to people's faces. At least the whole situation is taking weight from their voices!

[Guest Donna Jean]

"With liberty and justice for all"

What part of "All" don't they understand?

Donna Jean

[Guest KimberlyF]

While opponents of LGBT rights certainly deserve backlash for their point of view, I think intimidating witnesses in court cases crosses a line, and it's certainly very illegal. I can be a pretty vindictive person, and I've been known to say a lot of bad things about anti-LGBT advocates, but witness intimidation and other under-the-table tactics aren't the way for us and our allies to accomplish our goals--history has proved that (MLK, Gandhi). Revenge will be very sweet when it comes one day, but it's going to have to come through the legal system, for better or worse. It's our job as advocates and allies to fight fair and keep our faith in the judicial process, for better or worse. Leave the shady dealings to our opponents, so the fallout from their eventual defeat will be even greater, and we'll look all the better for taking the high road.

I agree 100%. If we threaten or intimidate or beat people that disagree with us regardless of who's right or wrong, we're no different than the people who threaten and beat us for being who we are. People are allowed to have opinions that are different than mine. I don't have to like them and they don't have to like me. But I detest violence.

Kar

[Guest NatashaJade]

I don't think it's a matter of threatening them with violence. I think it's more a matter of "outing" them as bigots and haters. Most people don't want everyone they know to know they are intolerant and mean spirited (unless they belong to Fred Phelps' cult...then they want everyone to know they are evil).

When you turn the lights on, the vermin run for cover.

luv

Gin

[Guest chngnwnd]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I have heard and read some of the rationale they use to justify their position.

I have a different theory - perhaps they don't want the world to know what a bunch of dumbasses they are. Their arguments are specious and their logic strained. Their position is wholly without merit and it is obvious to anyone who has a modicum of intelligence and common sense.

hugs

Bobbie

[Guest SusanKG]

quote Ashley C:

"our job as advocates and allies to fight fair and keep our faith in the judicial process, for better or worse."

Absolutely, although the faith in the judicial system (and the legislative system) so far has been only marginally justified. But that is how civil rights for blacks were won, by calm protests that won over enough whites to make a difference.

quote Donna Jean:

"With liberty and justice for all"

What part of "All" don't they understand?"

Just the part where it might be applied to those they don't like.

quote KarenF:

"People are allowed to have opinions that are different than mine. I don't have to like them and they don't have to like me. But I detest violence."

I do also. But when they do violence to me and my rights, and hide behind an anonomous petition drive to do it, as I said, I do not concern myself much if less restrained people use their own tactics against them. It does damage progress though.

quote Gin:

"I don't think it's a matter of threatening them with violence. I think it's more a matter of "outing" them as bigots and haters. Most people don't want everyone they know to know they are intolerant and mean spirited (unless they belong to Fred Phelps' cult...then they want everyone to know they are evil)."

Even Justice Scalia (!) said "running a democracy takes a certain amount of civic courage." "You can't run a democracy this way, with everybody afraid of having his political positions known."

Coming from the home state of the Phelps mob, I know they are worse than evil.

quote chngnwnd:

"I have a different theory - perhaps they don't want the world to know what a bunch of dumbasses they are. Their position is wholly without merit and it is obvious to anyone who has a modicum of intelligence and common sense."

And that is it in two sentences.

It does seem as if the T community will be the last discriminated against group to receive our full rights, justice and fair equal treatment. Saving the best for last.

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.

Susan Kay

[Milly]

I agree with gin. They need to be shown for what they are, it's not wrong to have them recorded. No more than people with cellphone cams recording a police arrest. There needs to be accountability with it and this works. I agree though, violence is wrong, we need to hold ourselves to a higher level than that. It won't solve anything, we need to show love and compassion but we also need to let people know we are here and we want equality.

[Guest Opal]

I certainly hope they are on the run!

Huggs!

Opal

[Guest SusanKG]

And I hope that our community learns the lesson seen again and again, in childhood and in life, when confronted by a bully - stand up. It is something always easy to say, often very hard to do, and I don't present my self as a sterling example of standing up. But when I have (after I learned it has nothing to do with "being a man") I have been better for doing so. So very often, the bully or the mob slink back from being confronted. The sociopath, not so much, particularly religious, fanatical, moralizing ones. But they function best with a mob at their back. The secret is to peel the mob away from their backs.

Susan Kay

[Guest Sam_P]

And I hope that our community learns the lesson seen again and again, in childhood and in life, when confronted by a bully - stand up. It is something always easy to say, often very hard to do, and I don't present my self as a sterling example of standing up. But when I have (after I learned it has nothing to do with "being a man") I have been better for doing so. So very often, the bully or the mob slink back from being confronted. The sociopath, not so much, particularly religious, fanatical, moralizing ones. But they function best with a mob at their back. The secret is to peel the mob away from their backs.

Susan Kay

Indeed. I think the main reason why trans people are gaining more acceptance and support now is because of increased visibility, standing up to the people who say we don't deserve the same rights as everyone else.

I mean, for every one of us that comes out and has to do battle with the people in our lives to get them to understand, hopefully that's a lot more people that won't keep perpetuating the stereotypes and the myths and the fear.

Never fear, we'll win the world over a few people at a time.

[Guest SailorGirl]

I have been following this for a while and personally I don't think the supports of Prop 8 or any other pro-discriminatory act or organization are fearful of reprisal. I think they are just uncomfortable doing things out in the open. They want to discriminate, they just want to do it behind the scenes so family, friends and co-workers won't know they are really bigots.

Fred Karger, the guy who uncovered the Mormon involvement in anti-gay marriage movements in both Hawaii and California, was instrumental in initiating this disclosure of names. Maggie Gallagher, head of the National Organization for Marriage (NOM), also a Mormon created and funded group, was one of the first to defend the donor's secrecy with claims of fear of reprisal from pro-gay groups. I think she really feared these people would stop donating to NOM and she'd have to get a real job.

[Guest ChloëC]

To me, the real issue is stick to the facts, show how we are by your own personal actions, and don't ever get into name calling or making accusations that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's how we appear as normal, everyday people who have the same problems, the same feelings, the same hopes and dreams as everyone else, that we engender support.

Most people (I'd say the vast majority) really don't want to get involved when people start throwing slanderous accusations at each other. It takes time and effort to gather the facts and determine who might be right, so why bother. That's the way to lose the support of the many people who have seen both sides and are undecided. It isn't getting the adamantly bigoted person to our side, it's getting the uncommitted.

Civil rights laws have basically been on the books and began to be enforced around 1953 (Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education). 57 years and there are still racists and bigots. Laws and prosecution don't make those people go away. But winning over the hearts and minds of the majority of people who would probably sympathize if it weren't for a few that want to exceed the bounds of decency and legality, would certainly help. Those are the people we should be working on, and we are, and it is working.

It just seems that in any long term fight, there are a radical few that demand change now, and spend more time alienating possible supporters than gathering more support. That's what we need to be against.

I'm for acceptance. I'm against demanding people change their minds and ways immediately. It don't work.

Hugs

Chloë