Pronouns 'n' Androgynes

[Guest Chrysee]

One of the first things that I found here at Laura's was the attention paid to using the proper pronoun. Not too long before that, my girlfriend and I had a moment when I finally spoke up about how frustrated I was feeling at her constantly referring to me as 'he', 'him', etc. Sadly, she replied as sweetly as she was capable of, saying: "I know that you think of yourself as a woman, and really want to be one. But that just makes you a wannabe woman.

Oh? I pointed out that, regardless of what I was wearing or which bathroom I used in public, this is the way I was born. So when exactly did the 'wannabe' happen? (And public restrooms is another issue all together!)

Anyway, when I joined Laura's Playground, I promptly pointed out to her the rules regarding pronouns. It seemed to help, along with her 'transitioning' in her own way along side me.

And now that I grow increasingly convinced that I am truly Androgynous (my oldest daughter was the first to put her foot down and insist on this, and I agreed with enthusiasm and relief,) I was asked what pronoun (pronouns?) would be appropriate. Honestly, I don't know.

Help?

Thanks.

[Guest Larson]

There are a lot of different types of pronouns that androgynes and genderqueer individuals have come up with. Can't recall any at the moment (it's summer, my scholarly brain is on vacation). I tend to take full advantage of saying "their" instead of "his" or "her" even though the improper grammar of that kinda rubs me the wrong way (lit major here). Of course, that only fixes possessive pronouns, not all of the others.

I think the documentary, Gender Rebel by Elaine Epstein, touches on the issue of pronouns and mentions the ones I can't remember at the moment. Even if it doesn't (again, memory failure), it's a great watch for all androgynes or genderqueer people (though FTMs or more male oriented androgynes will probably identify with it more as it focuses on three biological females).

[Guest nelo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Summary

The Ze/Hir/Hirs/Hirself seems to be what I always see online. Though it doesn't sound so good when I says it... ze is a rough sound, and hir sounds too much like hear to me. But it's common.

Ze used to be Xe years ago, becuase X was the common denominator between XX and XY. Glad they stopped that, I had no idea how to pronounce the X!

Then Ze is sometimes Sie, but that's german for she, so that's not working out. And instead of hir it can b zir, but I have an even harder time pronouncing that.

I personally like ey/em/eir/eirs/emself, but I never see it used anywhere. =( This person says the pros/cons well though: http://aetherlumina.com/gnp/technical.html#standard That whole page in general is pretty awesome and informative.

Maybe it's because I was taking speech classes from age 3 to 11 for a speech impediment (from being mostly deaf when I learned to speak, didn't get my ears fixed until age 3), but I find this stuff so hard to pronounce sometimes.

[Guest Micha]

I read somewhere about a book, a novel written that never disclosed the gender of it's characters, and instead the pronoun "ne" was used. Not completely sure about it, but I think I came across it on wiki too.

I've often wondered about this too. I've been a "he" all my life, and I'm used to it, but in the chat I always get called she all the time, and it's kind of exciting. I mean, if it had been that way all my life it prolly wouldn't be much of a thing for me, but it's new, so it's nice. I don't really mind either myself, but it'd be really nice to have a pronoun that didn't come with feminine/masculine connotations.

[Guest nelo]

I read somewhere about a book, a novel written that never disclosed the gender of it's characters, and instead the pronoun "ne" was used. Not completely sure about it, but I think I came across it on wiki too.

Ne sounds nice. Once after looking up genderless pronouns I went through the alphabet and tried to think of all the words that rhymed with he/she that weren't already words. There's ne, re and ye (maybe), ve or de (but those are the letters v and d), xe, and ze. Though there are probably a lot of 3-letter combos too, like... cle. I don't know. But ne sounds nice.

Though it also reminds me of the Knights Who Say Ni.

[Guest Sotha]

Though it also reminds me of the Knights Who Say Ni.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

I think that there just needs to be one set of genderless pronouns that are standardised for the English language. Once that happens, there won't be any dispute, and they won't sound so weird anymore because they will be real, well-known (if not well-used) words.

[Guest Chrysee]

I read somewhere about a book, a novel written that never disclosed the gender of it's characters, and instead the pronoun "ne" was used. Not completely sure about it, but I think I came across it on wiki too.

I've often wondered about this too. I've been a "he" all my life, and I'm used to it, but in the chat I always get called she all the time, and it's kind of exciting. I mean, if it had been that way all my life it prolly wouldn't be much of a thing for me, but it's new, so it's nice. I don't really mind either myself, but it'd be really nice to have a pronoun that didn't come with feminine/masculine connotations.

I owe you an apology. I was going to get back to you on some more of the spiritual aspects of androgyny (i.e. The Balance.) Unfortunately, I was abducted by life and haven't been available. I will get to it, I swear. I need to write it out both to share just to see it all in order (The Balance?)

In the meantime, sorry for the delay. . .

Okay?

[Guest nelo]

I think that there just needs to be one set of genderless pronouns that are standardised for the English language. Once that happens, there won't be any dispute, and they won't sound so weird anymore because they will be real, well-known (if not well-used) words.

That would be nice, but I think people would have to use them first to make them popular. Because "they" as a singular pronoun only got accepted because it was widely used, words like "truthiness" got into the dictionary because even though it was originally a made-up word, soon a lot of people used it. Right now the grammar masters or whoever makes these rules don't really have a good reason to just come up with gender neutral pronouns, so unless a lot of people show their support for them, maybe just support for the pronouns in general not specific ones, I don't think they're going to happen...

It's be cool if some people with English degrees of some kind got to work on this. Like people that know Etymology, have a firm grasp of English, know what people do and don't want when it comes to the English language. Might be a little better than just having people make more of them up.

I hope they don't go with "Thon," I've always had trouble with the soft th sound.

Oh, here's a quote from the wikipedia page:

Like most efforts at language reform, these well-intended suggestions have been largely ignored by the general English-speaking public, and the project to supplement the English pronoun system has proved to be an ongoing exercise in futility. Pronouns are one of the most basic components of a language, and most speakers appear to have little interest in adopting invented ones. This may be because in most situations people can get by using the plural pronoun they or using other constructions that combine existing pronouns, such as he/she or 'he or she'.

I can't help but think this sucks most for intersex people, who are not "he or she" or "he/she" in sex. It's sad that if there is someone of ambiguous sex or gender, there's no go-to pronoun. Just because there may be only a minority that uses these pronouns, and the general public has "little interest" doesn't mean it can just be ignored. =(

Oh weird, I was reading the article more (haven't really looked at it in a long time) and saw this:

A speaker may be discussing someone who is arguably described poorly (or not at all) by the gender categories associated with "he" and "she," as in the case of a referent who identifies as genderqueer.

Awesome.

[Guest nelo]

Sorry for the double post, found a good evaluation of the pronouns. It supports the ne one most. Found out n stand for neutral... that makes sense. =)

http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/ze-and-hir/

Which I do kind of like partically because I'm nelo... lol... except I pronounce it nay-low. But still. Also, considering the other day, I was trying to think of what I'd want a kid to call me if I was a parent, and I came up with "nene" (naynay). This ties into that rather well.

[Guest Micha]

Had a strange and maybe crazy thought. What about "em"?

Female

[Guest Evania]

Just my idea. Instead of getting busy looking up for definitions in dictionaries or encyclopedias, why not stick to the ones we prefer?

Using terms other than most commonly used in public (other than simply "he/she"), in my opinion, will be another exclusion in the society, denoting something different and don't belong to groups of males/females already established in the society.

One's preference may be different to the others. Therefore, I believe we should clarify in advance during the initial encounter, especially in such a forum.

What do you think?

[Guest Micha]

Just my idea. Instead of getting busy looking up for definitions in dictionaries or encyclopedias, why not stick to the ones we prefer?

Using terms other than most commonly used in public (other than simply "he/she"), in my opinion, will be another exclusion in the society, denoting something different and don't belong to groups of males/females already established in the society.

One's preference may be different to the others. Therefore, I believe we should clarify in advance during the initial encounter, especially in such a forum.

What do you think?

Practical, and for those who are comfortable with one, the other or both, not a problem. But perhaps some aren't comfortable with either, so what then for them? I can understand the desire for something else.

[Guest nelo]

Just my idea. Instead of getting busy looking up for definitions in dictionaries or encyclopedias, why not stick to the ones we prefer?

Using terms other than most commonly used in public (other than simply "he/she"), in my opinion, will be another exclusion in the society, denoting something different and don't belong to groups of males/females already established in the society.

One's preference may be different to the others. Therefore, I believe we should clarify in advance during the initial encounter, especially in such a forum.

What do you think?

I don't like either. While at the moment, if I HAD to pick, I guess I'd pick he, but why force myself into a box I don't like, when language can be changed and altered, and made better?

"will be another exclusion in the society, denoting something different and don't belong to groups of males/females already established in the society"

Why can't I just belong with PEOPLE, not female or males? Maybe this isn't about exclusion... it's about inclusion... where people of all genders can be together. There is just so much gender segregation... it makes me sad... while I know some people may feel more comfortable being friends with their own gender, or the opposite of their gender, I'd like to be with all, and because of this, I already feel exclusion from "groups of females" and "groups of males" already establashed (like fraternities and sororities). Calling myself he or she isn't going to help with this. I want nothing to do with gender segregated groups in the first place (even if I do like my female roommates, but that's just the way our apartment complex puts people together, and I have no objection to living in a mix in the future).

Man, woman, or otherwise, we're all human.

And as that "other" I'd rather be seen as different than as something I'm not.

[Guest Chrysee]

Practical, and for those who are comfortable with one, the other or both, not a problem. But perhaps some aren't comfortable with either, so what then for them? I can understand the desire for something else.

I have read here at Laura's about a number of Androgynes who, like me, accentuate the feminine. I was washing the dishes one night and my partner came into the kitchen, watched me for a moment (without me realizing it!) and finally said: 'Awh, that's a good girl.'

Well, being called 'girl' is one of the true thrills of my life. Or referring to me as 'she, her, etc.' When I initially asked about this, I was simply wondering how to refer to another 'gyne on this site without offending them.

Oh, and 'Hey!' Micha. I see that we're now official friends. Thanks, you flatter me. I also see that I am now a 'Senior Member.' And think: just last week, I was 'Hey, you!' to pretty much the entire world.

[Guest Micha]

I have read here at Laura's about a number of Androgynes who, like me, accentuate the feminine. I was washing the dishes one night and my partner came into the kitchen, watched me for a moment (without me realizing it!) and finally said: 'Awh, that's a good girl.'

Well, being called 'girl' is one of the true thrills of my life. Or referring to me as 'she, her, etc.' When I initially asked about this, I was simply wondering how to refer to another 'gyne on this site without offending them.

Oh, and 'Hey!' Micha. I see that we're now official friends. Thanks, you flatter me. I also see that I am now a 'Senior Member.' And think: just last week, I was 'Hey, you!' to pretty much the entire world.

I love that too, and I'm not sure why. In person it happened so rare, and when it did it was by children, so it was more cute and funny than anything affirming. Other than that it only happened in chat, either because my name comes off feminine or I present as such. I was thrilled too. I'm not sure if it's because the "part of me" that I repressed since puberty was being acknowledged by someone else, or if it was exciting because it was a new experience. Either way, I like it. I'm so used to "he" though that I don't get offended, or even bothered.

Well, yah! I consider you a friend, you've been so cool to me, and I love talking to you, so there you have it.

Why can't I just belong with PEOPLE, not female or males? Maybe this isn't about exclusion... it's about inclusion... where people of all genders can be together. There is just so much gender segregation... it makes me sad...

I agree, and maybe I'm too accepting of the way things are, but after reading your post, it seems things are changing. I sincerely hope they are, but it's a long process. Mixing facilities for all though would have to come with a more responsible humanity, then it'd be safer.

[Guest Chrysee]

Well, yah! I consider you a friend, you've been so cool to me, and I love talking to you, so there you have it.

Well, it's always good hearing from you, too, girlfriend!

Have been meaning to post more on the Spiritual side of it all. If I can get my life to slow down long enough, then I'll do just that.

I asked once if you're familiar with the Kaballah. How about Hermetic Magick? Theosophy? All of these areas have a lot to say about gender & spirituality. I need to explain more about The Creation and the Separation of the Sexes. With Duality came Creation.

Hope life's going well for you.

Later,

Chrysalis

Soror Veritas

[Guest Micha]

I asked once if you're familiar with the Kaballah. How about Hermetic Magick? Theosophy? All of these areas have a lot to say about gender & spirituality. I need to explain more about The Creation and the Separation of the Sexes. With Duality came Creation.

Er. . .none of the above. Would love to see what you'd have to say about it though. It would make for a stellar topic, I think.

[Guest Chrysee]

Er. . .none of the above. Would love to see what you'd have to say about it though. It would make for a stellar topic, I think.

Will do. You'll have to give me a little time as things are a bit crazy at the moment. As well, I'm still thinking that it should go on the Spirituality forum.

How's it going with you?

[Guest Riam]

I've gone through several sets of pronouns to see what works best, and I've found one I'm really happy with, though it's specific to me. My name is Riam, so in place of a pronoun, you can use "Ri." This works because: it rhymes with he/she, it's doesn't draw "Huh?"s like the made up pronouns because it's like a nickname, and it isn't long and awkward like using my name over and over again. So that works extremely well for me. Other people might be able to adapt that to their own usage.

[Guest stranger]

A Sci-fi book I read ...and no, I don't remember the name of the title or the author...used the gender-neutral term "per" for everyone. Short for "person."

I liked it then and I still like it now, it's not as pretentious as "ze", and it rolls off the tongue nicely.

[Guest stranger]

Oh, forgot to add: I joke that Androgeneity/Genderqueer is the Quest for Pronoun!

[Guest Alder]

hmm I like the super short Ne and Em ones personally. But probably because I already use 'em' as a shortened 'them' when referring to someone who's gender I don't know in general(if not just using their name)

I'm used to being called "she" and it doesn't really bother me as I was born as such grew up as such, but like the 'boys' who get a kick outta being called she, I love when I hear the rare masculine pronoun used for me. On all my online forums and groups, I'll select whichever gender catches my fancy at the time and whatever people call me is no bother.

The only time it /does/ bother me to be called 'she' or 'her' is when my friend(who prefers to be reference with whichever avatar they are currently using for gender) and mother do it on IMVU(dork, yes) where I am a male avatar, and my profile is set to male. Both know I would like to be either neutrally addressed or called he, and for about a month or so it was good until suddenly last week they just started with "her/she/ my daughter/" and another calling me 'sis' when I'm asked him in private to /only/ refer to me with fem pronouns when around 'family' which is a very tight group of us.

-sigh- I guess I'll have to re-iterate that I am /not/ female online unless I'm using my female avatar. Which, is.. never.