Just The T Without The Lgb

[Guest Dana M]

But then we'll be the t party and get clumped with all the conservatives!

[Sakura]

i know what you mean ashley, most times. i feel the only thing. i have in common with most transsexuals is the fact that. i am one. as i get deeper into my gender role . and become more intergrated with it . the more i feel like an alien . on both sides of the fence. stuck in a bizzare form of limbo. not far enough long that i can totally identify with being 100% female but to far along to identify with being trans either.

Sakura

[Guest tori319]

I am a proud member of the LGB community. It is one of the few places I have ever felt that I belonged and have felt far more welcome amongst them (especially the lesbian community and I'm not even lesbian but rather bisexual) than I ever did the Ts. It's strange that looking back on it, when I first began this transition, I felt the exact same way as you do. I thought it was the LGB community that was the enemy.. Turns out, I couldn't have been more wrong. The T community should be thankful that the lGB community would even consider having them grouped with them.

I think you have a romanticized view of the GLB community.I've met chauvinistic,racist,and transphobic Gays and Lesbians not to mention the ones that think that Bi people are really just straight or gay.I've seen gays not criticize each other because they are fem,masculine,top or bottom.There is still a lot of division in the GLB community.You seem sort of bitter towards trans people,which is odd seeing as you are trans.I'm not saying Everybody from the GLB community is ignorant and bad, a lot are not,My point is the gay community isn't some safe haven from ignorance and intolerance it's everywhere.

[Guest KaywinnitLeanne]

Hi,

This might not seem entirely relevant to the conversation, but I'm curious about the age of people in this discussion as it relates to their views of the LGB community. In my personal experience, I have experienced (this is a generalization) nothing but acceptance and a willingness to learn from LGB folks. I feel like the younger generation (people in their early 20s and their teens) are a lot more open to transfolk, and are often less inclined to view the T as "other". It's just another part of the big gay thing. Some of us are gay, some are lezzies, some are pansexual, some enjoy whipped cream, others prefer chocolate mousse, some people are trans or screw around with gender, and we all get far too excited about rainbows and unicorns. Just one example of this inclusiveness which I've encountered is a youtube channel called the Beaver Bunch. There's four gay/lesbian identified GGs, and they also have a transman who is totally part of the group, and they just discuss topics as they relate to sexuality and gender. They're not making distinctions, just generally catering slightly more to lesbian identified people. Feminism also seems more trans inclusive, in my eyes. Feministing.com has had a couple of good articles over the past few years (though some bad ones too, I understand), and the womens rights section at change.org covers transgendered women's issues. My college women's rights group is totally fine, as are those at the 2 nearby women's colleges. So, being 19 or 20 (depending on how you look at it) and involved with younger folks at a few colleges, my impression is that there's a push towards less divisiveness. So calm down.

This being said, I really do understand how someone who is transitioning and straight identified could not feel entirely at home with the LGBTQ community (I once saw the acronym "fabglitter" which makes me happy). And also, I understand that older folks have had a lot of trouble historically with gay and lesbian people, as well as feminists (Judith Butler and all that). But, judging by the fact that transgendered people manned the barricades with gay and lesbian people (was the idea of bisexual accepted back then, even?), then they were all pretty united and doing okay back before politics hit in, right? If you don't identify with LGB folks, or with T folks of various kinds, that's okay, nobody's asking you to. It's totally fine. But let's not be bickering and politicking (except when advocating our rights), and let's keep in mind that people are getting much more open minded.

With regards to the need for a Transsexual specific subgroup, I think that would be very helpful from a purely "how does transition work, anyhow?" standpoint. You could have both open and closed meetings, so that you are both inclusive and private when necessary. I think getting someone from your school's health services department would also be beneficial, and if you have someone who knows about transsexual legal-issues that would be good to have as well.

That's all.

Huggugg!

[Guest tori319]

That's all.

Huggugg!

I'm 19 and I think that a lot of gays and lesbians are excepting but there are still those that are like the ones that I mentioned above.

[Guest AshleyRF]

There was a time that I completely embraced the title "transgender". Over the past year or so since going fulltime I have grown to hate it with all my being. I would NEVER want to be seen as "trans". If I am going to be viewed as "trans" then what was the point of transitioning? I only want to be treated and seen as a woman, not a transwoman. I want all the benefits (and problems) that come from being a woman. IMO better to be dead than be seen as trans.

[Guest AshleyRF]

Actually... something interesting happened to me recently so I will tell the story.

So I met this girl online in World of Warcraft. (we belong to the same guild) So as 2 of maybe 3 women in that guild naturally we became friends. Over the course of time we talked and learned things about each other and whatnot... and she eventually learned that I was "lesbian". This seem to greatly interest her and she went from friends to flirting with me. This went on for awhile longer and even though she had never seen what I look like she had heard my voice many times before. Basically she had no clue I was trans. So the flirting continued and she showed more and more interest in me and truth be told even though I am currently married to a woman that I really do love, I began to have some feelings for this other woman as well (not love yet, but strong feeling none the less and not surprising as I do consider myself poly). I had seen pictures of her before but she had still not seen any of me (and believe me she is stunningly beautiful and in fact had done some professional modeling). Anyway, she really wanted to know what I looked like so I said fine you can friend request me on Facebook but if you figure something out about me from my facebook promise me you won't say anything to anyone else in the guild. She agreed not having a clue what I was really talking about and so I friend requested her and she checked out my picks and told me she thought I was gorgeous and reminded her of Liv Tyler and said she was even more interested In me now and continued to flirt with me the rest of the night. She then asked me "so what was I suppose to figure out by your Facebook page?" So I asked her "you really can't tell anything different about me?" She said "no, why". And so I ended up telling her the truth. Of course she acted surprised and told me that she was perfectly cool with that and everything was great. Until the next day. The very next day all the flirting came to a complete halt. Even when I tried to flirt with her she just kind of ignored it or didn't respond to it. Now, we hardly talk anymore. Even though I know we were never going to be together and nothing was every going to come of what we shared, it still made me feel good to have someone flirt with me like that. I didn't love her but I did have feelings for her and when all the flirting came to an crashing end, it hurt me. I even cried over it a little because it once again made me feel insignificant and unlovable and it was all because of what I am. If I had just been a lesbian and nothing more, she would not have reacted this way.

So you ask me if I'm bitter about being transgendered. Yes I am!!!! I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It has caused me so much pain and heartache in life that I have just lost all hope.

[Guest ChloëC]

Ashley,

That is a sad story, and I feel for you, because it does hurt when someone you have feelings for, and has seemed interested in you, all of a sudden stops having any interaction.

I just wish you wouldn't blame it solely on your ts status. You did say, she seemed to like your voice and your appearance, and had no idea you were transgender. That alone is fantastic, I would think. But you really don't have any basis on why she 'broke' up with you except your own feelings of inadequacy.

There could be a large number of other just as valid reasons. 1, she wasn't what she appeared to be. It was online. 2. She found out you were married 3. She had very strong feelings for you and didn't know how to deal with them. The list could go on. That you were trans may or may not be one of them, and if it was, maybe not even the most important. You just don't know.

I dated a number of girls in late high school and college and most broke up with me - they met somebody else while dating me, they wanted children, they decided after several months and exchanges of gifts and intimate moments that they weren't that interested. Something wrong with me? Possibly, I don't know either. But I was, let's say, heartbroken with several and was sure there was something terribly wrong about me, especially that I wasn't 'male' enough. (that was an easy one, considering)

I will bet a lot of ts people here and elsewhere would have like to have had a few moments where someone else found them attractive, interesting, enjoyable to be around. Take it as life experience, good and bad, and please, don't hold it against a whole group of people. I don't think that's fair. You didn't deserve what happened, neither do they.

Hugs

Chloë

[Guest AshleyRF]

She knew I was married and that didn't stop her before and I even told her how I really felt and that there was no way I would ever leave my wife for anyone however I did explain to her that I was poly. She knew all of this and still flirted heavily with me. I can't think of any other reason why she would all of a sudden stop.

I don't blame the TS community for this but rather the fact that I am TS. It will forever make me "not good enough". If I were not TS she would still be flirting with me.

[JJ]

Self acceptance is the key to everything. With it you can eventually find and accept love. Without it nothing will work. You'll set yourself up to fail every time.

And feeling that strongly and negatively about something you were born with and can never change is incredibly destructive in every aspect of your life. You need to see a therapist again or more. You can become a complete woman-I know there are parts missing but my best friend had those parts removed 30 years ago for medical reasons and neither she nor anyone else considered her less of a woman. BUT when we transition it is a fact. It can't be denied. You aren't less of a woman because you are trans-unless you think less of yourself for it. You can't expect-or even accept -acceptance when you won't accept yourself.

You have gone through an ordeal most people can't even imagine to become a woman. Be proud of the woman you have become and the journey you made instead of ashamed. Otherwise there will never be any real peace or happiness for you. There are plently of people here who have successfully made that adjustment.

JJ

[Guest AshleyRF]

Self acceptance is the key to everything. With it you can eventually find and accept love. Without it nothing will work. You'll set yourself up to fail every time.

And feeling that strongly and negatively about something you were born with and can never change is incredibly destructive in every aspect of your life. You need to see a therapist again or more. You can become a complete woman-I know there are parts missing but my best friend had those parts removed 30 years ago for medical reasons and neither she nor anyone else considered her less of a woman. BUT when we transition it is a fact. It can't be denied. You aren't less of a woman because you are trans-unless you think less of yourself for it. You can't expect-or even accept -acceptance when you won't accept yourself.

You have gone through an ordeal most people can't even imagine to become a woman. Be proud of the woman you have become and the journey you made instead of ashamed. Otherwise there will never be any real peace or happiness for you. There are plently of people here who have successfully made that adjustment.

JJ

If I actually looked remotely anything like a woman I might would feel differently about it. Instead I look like a man in a dress. Not a pretty sight.

[Carolyn Marie]

If I actually looked remotely anything like a woman I might would feel differently about it. Instead I look like a man in a dress. Not a pretty sight.

Ashley, given what your on-line friend told you about your appearance (looking like Liv Tyler? I would die for a compliment like that),

your statement above seems incongruous. I truly don't understand how you could think you look like a "man in a dress" when others, including me and most everyone else here who has ever commented on it, says otherwise.

Your self image is at odds with reality, and that is dragging you into the pit that you've described so well.

Neither I, nor anyone else here, can make you believe something you are determined to disbelieve. You could be happy(er) if you wanted to be, in my opinion. But you seem to prefer your current state of self loathing. That seems to me to be the primary problem. I hope you can find a solution. I truly do.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest AshleyRF]

I look in the mirror every day. I see the reflection staring back and my and 9 times out of 10, I cry.

[Guest AshleyRF]

Weather or not how I see myself is reality doesn't really matter. The fact remains that this is truly what I see in the mirror every day, this is REALITY to me. I have given up hope of ever being happy. I'm here because my wife claims she needs me and I do care greatly about her but not a day goes by I don't wish she would fall in love with someone else. That way no one would no longer need me here and I could end the misery for good.

[Guest April63]

If I actually looked remotely anything like a woman I might would feel differently about it. Instead I look like a man in a dress. Not a pretty sight.

I just looked at the pictures in your gallery, and you look like a woman to me. In fact I didn't see that many traces of masculinity at all. For a while you even had me fooled, I thought you must have been a genetic female. I didn't realize you were trans until a little later. There is a saying that we are our harshest critic. I don't think you look like a man in a dress. Look for the positives. I bet you'll be able to find a lot of them.

[Guest Melanie Dawn]

I don't have anything really in common with the T community.

except you ARE trans, no matter how much you want to turn your back on, or deny what you are, it's what you are, and always will be..somewhere in the back of your mind it will always be there.

Melanie Dawn

[Guest AshleyRF]

except you ARE trans, no matter how much you want to turn your back on, or deny what you are, it's what you are, and always will be..somewhere in the back of your mind it will always be there.

Melanie Dawn

And I fear that is a fact I may not be able to live with.

[Guest Melissa 67]

And I fear that is a fact I may not be able to live with.

You do not have to disclose to anybody your trans, you can live as a full women. I've seen your pictures, your georgeous! you totally pass. You just refuse to see it, but belief me I'm not lying to you.

Love

Melissa 67

[Guest Melanie Dawn]

And I fear that is a fact I may not be able to live with.

I don't understand why... I mean you don't have to tell anyone, but it IS a part of you.

Melanie Dawn

[Guest AshleyRF]

I'd still know and as long as I know I fear I will always see traits of "him".

I know you can find masculine traits in even genetic women. There are genetic women who have prominent brow bossings, there are GGs with square jaw lines, there are GGs with receding hairlines, there are women with broad shoulders, etc..... The difference is, when those women see those traits in themselves (if they even notice it at all) they were still born 100% completely female. I'm sure dealing with a few masculine traits is far easier when you were born female rather than dealing with them when you are trans.

To me, being read would be the worst thing that can happen to me. It is true that as far as I know, I have never been read. If anyone knew, they didn't let on that they did and the few people I did tell were completely shocked. I do have several funny stories that came from times when I didn't have a choice but to tell someone and they look on their face was completely priceless.

However, I fear the day will come when I am unable to pass. That is really my biggest concern. It's not so much that I currently don't pass but one if something happens and I am unable to in the future. I'm constantly worried about hair loss because I see my father just about every day and I see how bald he is. I am currently loosing weight and I fear that with the weight loss I am actually loosing some of my curves and some of the softness to my face. I know the simple solution to that would be to say "just don't loose anymore weight" but I don't want to be the size I am now. I am currently a size 8 or 10 depending and I want to get down to a 4 or 6 depending. I also fear that since my method of weight loss is not only watching what I eat (to some degree) but I run 6 miles 6 days a week, and because of that I worry about having to much muscle in my legs. (this is especially a concern for me since my T levels have stayed the same throughout since starting HRT. Granted I was always on the low side of the spectrum anyway but it is still higher than the average female range. I have just switched my medications to something different in hopes that it will be effective in reducing my T levels. We all know that higher T levels means more muscle development.)

There are just so many "what if" questions that constantly run through my head. There are so many things I see about myself that even though others must not see them the same way I do, still bother me greatly. I am honestly at the end of my rope here. I am to the point where I will see something in the mirror while I'm at work about myself that I don't like and I start worrying others there see it as well and it causes me to have a panic attack. This obviously affects my work and though nothing has been brought up yet, I fear it will be. I honestly just don't know how to get this under control. It causes me to get upset and angry and then I become a completely different person.

I'm sick of seeing all these GGs in the world living their lives every day without a worry in the world about someone thinking they are anything but female. They never worry about it because it is pretty much never going to happen. (not saying there are not any GGs who have been mistaken for males before but it doesn't happen often). I just want a normal life without the worry of these "what if's".

[Guest ChloëC]

Ashley,

All through my life I have been looking at women. Not from a male, sexist, get intimate look, but a how do they look like that, what are they wearing, how would I fit in look if only... I can get away with it because anyone noticing me thinks, ah, male, chauvinist-pig, and that's all right. It's a nice cover.

But as I age, I'm looking at women of comparable age, trying to understand if I were to transition now, what would I wear, how would I look now.

And let me tell you, there are a lot of older women who are losing their hair and I'm sure the vast majority I've seen are GG. And those are the ones not doing anything about it. I'm sure more are, and I don't see the hair weaves, the extensions, the falls, tho sometimes wigs are a little noticeable. But I sure notice the hair coloring now.

Same with body styles. There are plenty of women I see that are physical health enthusiasts (several runners especially) and I am very aware that they are giving up feminine curves for a healthy feeling (if not looking) body.

People have to make trade-offs all the time. A part of being human, and something most people can deal with, tho it takes a lot of strain and stress at times.

What really surprises me about what you wrote was "without a worry in the world about someone thinking they are anything but female". Granted, GG women don't worry about being female (like I don't worry about having brown hair or green eyes), but way too many do worry about how they look (well, ok I wish mine were lighter brown and a little more bluish). You are definitely not alone. I'm guessing that if someone wanted to start a sure-fire business even in the worst economic times, that a salon (it would have to have some quality to it) would always be successful. Here we are in bad times and Nail Salons can't open fast enough.

I'm reading your posts and I thinking now you're actually afraid that you won't look attractive as you age. Welcome to the real world, I now believe you're a lot more woman than you (or even I) realize. If we can just get those silly thoughts about no where else to turn out of your system, I think you have a wonderful future ahead of you. Just be prepared to pay a good salon for part of it.

Hugs,

Chloë

ps, go read 'Richard Corey' sometime, just google it

[Guest Melissa 67]

Ashley,

All through my life I have been looking at women. Not from a male, sexist, get intimate look, but a how do they look like that, what are they wearing, how would I fit in look if only... I can get away with it because anyone noticing me thinks, ah, male, chauvinist-pig, and that's all right. It's a nice cover.

But as I age, I'm looking at women of comparable age, trying to understand if I were to transition now, what would I wear, how would I look now.

And let me tell you, there are a lot of older women who are losing their hair and I'm sure the vast majority I've seen are GG. And those are the ones not doing anything about it. I'm sure more are, and I don't see the hair weaves, the extensions, the falls, tho sometimes wigs are a little noticeable. But I sure notice the hair coloring now.

Same with body styles. There are plenty of women I see that are physical health enthusiasts (several runners especially) and I am very aware that they are giving up feminine curves for a healthy feeling (if not looking) body.

People have to make trade-offs all the time. A part of being human, and something most people can deal with, tho it takes a lot of strain and stress at times.

What really surprises me about what you wrote was "without a worry in the world about someone thinking they are anything but female". Granted, GG women don't worry about being female (like I don't worry about having brown hair or green eyes), but way too many do worry about how they look (well, ok I wish mine were lighter brown and a little more bluish). You are definitely not alone. I'm guessing that if someone wanted to start a sure-fire business even in the worst economic times, that a salon (it would have to have some quality to it) would always be successful. Here we are in bad times and Nail Salons can't open fast enough.

I'm reading your posts and I thinking now you're actually afraid that you won't look attractive as you age. Welcome to the real world, I now believe you're a lot more woman than you (or even I) realize. If we can just get those silly thoughts about no where else to turn out of your system, I think you have a wonderful future ahead of you. Just be prepared to pay a good salon for part of it.

Hugs,

Chloë

ps, go read 'Richard Corey' sometime, just google it

I heard her asking about being afraid of losing her hair and gaining muscle-mass. As you already know testoterone leads to hair loss and gaining muscle mass. No testosterone no hair loss or gaining muscle. Your electologist should be able to adjust the ati-antrogens and estrogin your taking through blood work till your reach the desired level; of course you already know this so if your endo is not doing this get one that will I think I hear what you're saying: you don't want to look like a women just after you put a whole bunch of makeup on and wigs or whatever, you want to look like one naturley. Thats what I want. I want to look like a women without any makeup on at all.

Love

Melissa 67

[Guest Melissa 67]

Ashley,

All through my life I have been looking at women. Not from a male, sexist, get intimate look, but a how do they look like that, what are they wearing, how would I fit in look if only... I can get away with it because anyone noticing me thinks, ah, male, chauvinist-pig, and that's all right. It's a nice cover.

But as I age, I'm looking at women of comparable age, trying to understand if I were to transition now, what would I wear, how would I look now.

And let me tell you, there are a lot of older women who are losing their hair and I'm sure the vast majority I've seen are GG. And those are the ones not doing anything about it. I'm sure more are, and I don't see the hair weaves, the extensions, the falls, tho sometimes wigs are a little noticeable. But I sure notice the hair coloring now.

Same with body styles. There are plenty of women I see that are physical health enthusiasts (several runners especially) and I am very aware that they are giving up feminine curves for a healthy feeling (if not looking) body.

People have to make trade-offs all the time. A part of being human, and something most people can deal with, tho it takes a lot of strain and stress at times.

What really surprises me about what you wrote was "without a worry in the world about someone thinking they are anything but female". Granted, GG women don't worry about being female (like I don't worry about having brown hair or green eyes), but way too many do worry about how they look (well, ok I wish mine were lighter brown and a little more bluish). You are definitely not alone. I'm guessing that if someone wanted to start a sure-fire business even in the worst economic times, that a salon (it would have to have some quality to it) would always be successful. Here we are in bad times and Nail Salons can't open fast enough.

I'm reading your posts and I thinking now you're actually afraid that you won't look attractive as you age. Welcome to the real world, I now believe you're a lot more woman than you (or even I) realize. If we can just get those silly thoughts about no where else to turn out of your system, I think you have a wonderful future ahead of you. Just be prepared to pay a good salon for part of it.

Hugs,

Chloë

ps, go read 'Richard Corey' sometime, just google it

To further add to what I was saying well I have extremely thick hair and no hair loss or anything . I started ant-antrogens 6- weeks ago and i'm starting estrogin in a little while. This will stop any possibe male pattern baldness. To put it bluntley if I thought I was going to have male pattern baldness despite the anti-antrognes and the estrogene I would bother to transition, and if I do develope male pattern baldness or gain muscle mass later on I'll jump of a bridge or some other method. I'm sure non of these things will happen to me though

Love

Melissa 67

[Guest Melissa 67]

I heard her asking about being afraid of losing her hair and gaining muscle-mass. As you already know testoterone leads to hair loss and gaining muscle mass. No testosterone no hair loss or gaining muscle. Your electologist should be able to adjust the ati-antrogens and estrogin your taking through blood work till your reach the desired level; of course you already know this so if your endo is not doing this get one that will I think I hear what you're saying: you don't want to look like a women just after you put a whole bunch of makeup on and wigs or whatever, you want to look like one naturley. Thats what I want. I want to look like a women without any makeup on at all.

Love

Melissa 67

Sorry, I meant to say endocrinologists instead of electrologist

[Guest Natalie92]

Separating the 'T' is about the worst thing possible in my opinion. We want acceptance, right? So, common sense says that we need to be accepting of others. In both of the LGBTQQIA groups on my campus, about 15% of the people are actually allies (people who identify as straight, cisgendered but still want to be part of the community to help) and you know what? They are some of the most accepting people in the group (not to say that the others aren't, far from it). And do you know why that is? Because they CHOSE to stand with us overlooking that their lives will be the same whether we get everything we need or not.

Another point to be made is that we DO have several issues in common. Last week at the support group (one of the groups deals with advocacy and one is a support group) our entire discussion was on coming out. ALL of us have to face the problem, and ALL of us have some worries about it. In a few weeks we are talking about bullying, another issue that affects us all. Our issues are not only about hormones, surgery, passing, and bathrooms. There are 73 members between the 2 groups (and over 50 are in both). 4 (including myself) are trans/genderqueer. Our university policy is that for an organization to be recognized, there must be AT LEAST 10 members. If we made just a transgender group, and excluded everyone else, we wouldn't even be allowed to have our voices heard.

A final point to make is that some people aren't sure whether they are trans or gay. I had someone in the group come up to me afterward and ask me how I knew, because he was wondering what he was. I was the same way. I thought I was gay before I knew I was a transwoman. Exclusion and separation just further hinders the process of self-identity, which is THE most important issue anyone faces.

Thank you for listening to my 2 cents.

Natalie