Any Thoughts On This?

[Guest EvenClose]

Found this sight and thought that this was quite interesting. Anyone think otherwise on this, or is it biased information?

http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Hormones_:_Urban_Legends

[Guest Donna Jean]

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Well, it's an interesting piece...

And I read the whole thing with what I hoped was an open mind..

But, for as much as it says that the breast size rule of thumb, the "younger" MTF's do better on HRT and so forth, being old wive's tales based on anecdotal evidence...

So is their claims to the reverse..

Since there are no real studies done, it's mostly through observation... And the Trans community has observed a lot.

So, for now, I'll just stick with the general rules and see how it goes..

After all, we've seen the "old wives tale" put forth in dozens of places including our doctors and this is the very first time that I've ever seen this!

Donna Jean

[Guest KimberlyF]

But, for as much as it says that the breast size rule of thumb, the "younger" MTF's do better on HRT and so forth, being old wive's tales based on anecdotal evidence...

So is their claims to the reverse..

Since there are no real studies done, it's mostly through observation... And the Trans community has observed a lot.

And yet it made me rethink things. For a rule to be a rule in science it has to always work and there are younger people who don't have much luck with HRT and there are older people who have had amazing luck. And also maybe there's other things that are the factor for the norm than age like smoking and even second hand exposure that is more likely to have happened in the older group than the younger group and is known to be a negative with HRT.

And the other was just a 'rule of thumb' that kinda bothered me. I've heard a cup smaller than your mom, and I've heard if you start a little later it will change that and if you're a little overweight a bit bigger than that or it's not your mom's side it's your dad's side. And then in the real world, there are mothers out there with two gg daughters and one will be flat chested and the other will be huge. One will be fat and one will be skinny and can eat all day long and not gain a pound.

[Guest AshleyRF]

The truth of it is, it's all based on your own genetics mixed with a few other factors that occur during puberty. Anyone starting HRT after the age of around 18 is going to end up developing the same no matter if they start at 19 or if they start at 55. Any "damage" done by testosterone is pretty much done by the age of 18. The bones have pretty much finished their growth and all receptors for hair growth are already stimulated to begin growing hair.

What many of us do not realize is, there are some aspects of development that happen based solely on chromosomes and even if a person takes androgen blockers and estrogen prior to puberty will still develop these characteristics. For instance, a person born with XY (male) chromosomes will develop a slightly larger bone structure (on average) than a person born with XX (female) chromosomes. Even if one starts HRT prior to puberty, they will still have some of the characteristics of being born the opposite sex.

The only difference in development between being younger and older is that the younger could possibly develop at a slightly faster rate than someone older. This is all due to the fact that cell development slows down the older a person becomes.

[Guest KimberlyF]

The truth of it is, it's all based on your own genetics mixed with a few other factors that occur during puberty. Anyone starting HRT after the age of around 18 is going to end up developing the same no matter if they start at 19 or if they start at 55. Any "damage" done by testosterone is pretty much done by the age of 18. The bones have pretty much finished their growth and all receptors for hair growth are already stimulated to begin growing hair.

What many of us do not realize is, there are some aspects of development that happen based solely on chromosomes and even if a person takes androgen blockers and estrogen prior to puberty will still develop these characteristics. For instance, a person born with XY (male) chromosomes will develop a slightly larger bone structure (on average) than a person born with XX (female) chromosomes. Even if one starts HRT prior to puberty, they will still have some of the characteristics of being born the opposite sex.

The only difference in development between being younger and older is that the younger could possibly develop at a slightly faster rate than someone older. This is all due to the fact that cell development slows down the older a person becomes.

Now this I can stand behind. It seems more reasonable. The other 'truths' didn't fit into scientific method. Too many examples in the real world with non-TS where the 'truths' don't work.

[Guest ChloëC]

Reminds me of the quote from 'The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance'.

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

I think the first lines pretty much sum it up, without hard and fast and reliable and verifiable and reproduceable and validated studies, it ALL is pretty much just empirical evidence, not worth much and only used to try to support or deny personal beliefs, depending on the desires of the poster, or of the doctor and/or the patient in the office.

The problem, like most non-studied issues, is that you only hear from those who want to be heard, either supporters or deny-ers, and who knows what portion of the population in question each really represents.

Hugs

Chloë

[JJ]

I believe the problem with making any generalizations or conjectures is that the situation is too individual and complex. Although all of the most current studies validate that being trans is a medical condition, that condition can be induced in the laboratory in an almost infinite number of ways with as many results. Because there are so many chromosomes that can be affected in so many ways and varied combinations. We are the same in many ways and infinitely different in others.

I have been struck by how many of us report some hormonal abnormality noted at some point in their life. I'm a DES baby. But although they can prove DES causes transgender conditions in animals the nature of the condition and the lack of medical records after 30-60+ years makes it impossible to study and verify in humans. There is a strong statistical indication but that is all there will ever be apparently. There are no empirical methods yet to accurately study transgendered people. No funding to study each of our kerotypes and chromosomes to discover what abnormalities may be involved. And so many of us are in hiding one way or another.

So all that can be said is that HRT will feminize you-with widely varied results depending on what your previous hormonal and genetic makeup dictates. The same with T. It will masculinize-how much depends on those same factors.

JohnJ

[Guest Charlene_Leona]

I read the whole article and believe most of it is right on. When it comes to breast size I'm already larger than my mother and my sister to there disappointment. I even have picture's to prove it. Also I had an Orchi at my 2 year point and my doctor reduced my meds, but recently he has reintroduced Promethium and increased my estrogen. Since doing this I have started to gain more breast in the last month I have grown another cup size and my breast are painful agin. I've had my primary check out the pain and it was only inflammation in the glands under the areola. Needless to say I'm very happy to be developing again since I'm at 4 years on HRT.

So all of these myths can be broken and since there have been no decent studies I will stick to the YMMV comment for all of us.

Take Care

Charlene Leona

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Yes - that old YMMV! It's true. What Ashley wrote is probably very close to what really happens. And I to am larger than my mother and one of my sisters, already - after 21 months HRT. And I donno - we get what we get!

Lizzy

[Guest ChloëC]

ok, wait a minute.

Proposition 1 - there are claims out there regarding use of hormone therapy for tg.

Proposition 2 - the claims are unfounded because there is absolutely no valid research

Proposition 3 - my counterclaims are valid

(unstated)Proposition 4 - see proposition 2

I really don't care for scientific sounding papers that purport to debunk unsupported scientific claims by using unsupported scientific claims. (at least two things this writer should have done - 1. submit his/her study to a peer review 2. supply references to supporting evidence so that we may see ourselves where the claims are coming from. I saw one(1) referenced study which I have no idea if it significantly supports the one claim)

I certainly appreciate everyone's examples of what they have seen with themselves or with close others. That is all extremely helpful in understanding that there are no set results that can ever be claimed at this time, and it helps others just starting out realize that many things are possible.

Just let's not make claims based on small unrepresentative numbers that we are familiar with. Just report what you see, share with the rest of us if you desire, and until there are significant studies completed, realize that it's all personal reports.

Hugs

Chloë

[Guest Elizabeth K]

OH OH OH

I didn't address the original thread - the article.

PSEUDOSCIENCE

It was intersting to read and could be a postulation opening for a thesis - a really BIG thesis - but it paints with a wide brush, and faults 'heresay and legend' by simply adding more unsupported postlative statements.

The base arguement "my ideas are better that yours" simply will not stand up. No serious study would use this technique.

Finally - WAY too much subject matter - hitting on five so called 'urban legends' (really more than that if you break it into subclasse). Each one could be a major topic.

And a general comment? These are not technically 'urban legends' which are something else completely. A prosaic yet more accurate term might be 'old wive's tales." Personally? I would have used a less inflammitory wording such as 'Misconceptions." Even that milder tone is slightly misleading

Psudoscience - geared to the Internet audience... shortcut written and full of nothing at all, attention getting but in the end? rather useless.

STILL

It makes you think? HA!

Lizzy

[Guest EvenClose]

This is awesome. I think i may have just made this an Urban Legend. Pfft, how many pple can do that! Turn an Urban legend into an Urban legend.

-ouch now my brain hurts-

or maybe it don't, maybe its really just an Urban legend.

OK OK im done.

not really done, its just an Urban Legend

[Guest AshleyRF]

There is hardly enough research done on us to even guess about any of it really. We are just not important to the world.

Nothing that a transperson is prescribed or no surgery other than SRS that a transperson undergoes was ever designed with trans people in mind. (yes this also means FFS was not designed for transwomen because it wasn't. All of the techniques used today are a variation of techniques used to make genetic women more asthetically pleasing)