The Bible’s Teachings …or Free Will?

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

I was commenting on another post and thought it best I post the longer version of my reply here. So as not to take the original poster topic off track…

Plus it’s a topic if kept civil could reap benefit for many…

I’m not anti Christian ‘SMILE’ some of my best cisgender friends are Christian SMILE…But I do scratch my head and wonder how those trans-people who profess to being Christian can cope with [in most cases] being ostracised by their religion, church and family…

As an outsider when looking at this forum which is made up of people mostly from the North American continent, [where I should add many are seen as having a deep affiliation with the church in one way or other]…I see this affiliation is especially hard for the younger ones to contend with[hence my presumption many are influence from ‘right wing’ groups]…

All their life they’ve been told by people they look up to and respect i.e., parents and church communities, that homosexuality and anything associated with it [remember the church tends to clump transgender and homosexuals into the same basket] is a sin in the eyes of the most high and that god is all seeing, all hearing[including ones thoughts]…Even if the sins of homosexuality did not factor much when the preacher preached…All were aware of this fact…Because it was the ‘doctoring’ of the church

And I mean ‘doctoring’ not ‘doctrine’…

I guess it’s easy for me to voice my opinion re; church and religion, because they have no ‘influence’ whatsoever over how I lead my life…{ I loosely follow the teachings of the Buddha-but I don’t see Buddhism as a ‘god’ based religion in fact I don’t see Buddhism as being a religion}

When it comes to certain main stream Christian groups I personally just see groups of ‘sheeple’ programmed to believe they need something greater than themselves [a supernatural imaginary friend] to help justify their personal prejudices and dislikes and sadly much of the bible’s contents is so ambiguous it leaves it’s self wide open to interpretation [hence the present state of affairs] …And if one looks back at history-past documents prove this to be true …Some may choose to see it differently and that’s their prerogative…

I’m well aware that there are some Christian sects who fully support the LGBT – just as there are here in Aotearoa…But the young transgender person is obliged to go to the church of their parents whom in many cases just happen to be anti LGBT and when I say anti I mean anti, some might spew out the ‘we love all people’ crap from the pulpit then go on [using quotes from their holy book] to condemn the life style[the true inner being] of some…What does it take to be a ‘good’ Christian nowadays…the bible’s teachings or free will? Surely one can’t have both…If I’m wrong…what can I say but…what strange bedfellows they make…

Now I’m not too sure whether any professed ‘out’ trans-Christians are ‘fully’ accepted into America's main stream churches. If so, I and no doubt others would really like to know how this came about…I’m sure you would give others trans-Christians who are in a similar position, a good argument on which to plead their case with their church…

I aware that no two church congregations are exactly the same, but the universal doctrines as quoted in the bible re; the sins of homosexuality/transsexuality must all be along similar lines….

Metta Jendar

[Guest Leah1026]

Although I don't go to church anymore, I still consider myself Catholic. Anybody that's Catholic has probably heard of Dr Paul McHugh. He has spread his anti-trans poison far and wide, including the Vatican. Hate is a strong word, but I really dislike this man.

How do I deal with it? Well the good news (pardon the pun) is that many American parishes and priests are way more liberal than the Vatican. I also deal with it by knowing the Church is wrong. It's been wrong on many, many issues in the last 2000 years. The most famous being Galileo. He was put under house arrest and condemned for teaching the Copernican theory that the sun, and not the Earth, was the center of the solar system. This happened way back in the year 1434(?). Because of pride and ignorance didn't lift it's condemnation until about 10 years ago.

The Church is at it's best when it stays on it's original message: the teachings of Jesus. It get's into serious trouble when it tries go beyond that original mission. I cope by honoring that original mission of love, forgiveness and tolerance.

[Guest Mr. Fox]

Despite my Christianity, I generally despise churches anyway, and my family is atheist, so I have no problems!

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

Being atheist in a Catholic family the question of religion for me is not an easy one to answer. I'm not going to condemn anyone's beliefs unless they hurt other people, but I find that this kind of bigoted thinking is indeed one that hurts others. Sadly, it's a common view.

[blackkatsen]

I believe you have both.

From what I have learned at Church, the Scriptures are supposed to be a kind of guidebook for our lives. So the commandments within it are supposed to lead us back to God. One of the essential things taught in the Scriptures is that we have our free agency. Or in other words, our freedom to choose. I don't believe the Bible restricts anyone from having free will because the Bible says that we have our free agency. By sinning against God we are just halting our progress towards living with Him again. Not a very good idea, but we all do it. So there's repentance. But anyway I'm saying that we still have the freedom to choose and the Bible outlines how to return to heaven. The Bible isn't very trans friendly, but you can still live most of the Bible (while defying many of the most important principles) and be trans.

[Guest KellyGirl]

hm. thats weird... I can talk a lot about this stupid anti gay agenda. but is there anything in the Bible that targets transgendered people particularly?

[MaryEllen]

Not that I'm aware of. There are mentions of eunuchs and barren women but nothing that addresses transgenderism directly. If anyone knows of any scripture verses that does address being transgender, I'd sure like to hear about it.

MaryEllen

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

Don't shoot me ...I'm just the messenger

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Remember the bible is open to interpretation...

When it comes to this passage, do you[as in the christian trans person] face an inner struggle with what I see as a somewhat blatant condemnation of wearing the clothes of the opposite sex?

Now I should point out 'transsexual' people ie, those who have a desire to live 'fulltime' as their 'brain sex' ARE NOT wearing clothes of the 'opposite' sex if you get my drift...However, crossdressers ie, 'men' who still self identify as men, one could argue this bible passage only apply to those 'men' who 'crossdress'...Food for thought!!!

Metta Jendar...

[MaryEllen]

That passage is brought up quite frequently to condemn crossdressers. This was written to the early Jews who were just emerging from barbarianism. It was meant to set up guidelines for a standard of living for these people It also says in deuteronomy that you shall wear tassles on the four connors of your clothing, build railings around the roof of your house so guests will not fall off, do not mix different fibers in making cloth, ie. wool and cotton, do not plant different crops in the same field, don't eat meat of a pig for it is unclean. None of these old laws apply today so why should crossdressing be any different. Only because self righteous bigots say so. That's why.

MaryEllen

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Kia Ora,

Don't shoot me ...I'm just the messenger

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Remember the bible is open to interpretation...

When it comes to this passage, do you[as in the christian trans person] face an inner struggle with what I see as a somewhat blatant condemnation of wearing the clothes of the opposite sex?

Now I should point out 'transsexual' people ie, those who have a desire to live 'fulltime' as their 'brain sex' ARE NOT wearing clothes of the 'opposite' sex if you get my drift...However, crossdressers ie, 'men' who still self identify as men, one could argue this bible passage only apply to those 'men' who 'crossdress'...Food for thought!!!

Metta Jendar...

I've always had a hard time with that particular scripture. Even before I identified as trans, I definitely wore men's clothes. In fact, I think my mother may have even quoted that particular scripture to me before. Truth is, I don't know how to interpret it.

The way I see it, there are two options:

1. There is an all-loving God up there somewhere. If he made us all, then he made transgendered people too and loves us just the same as everyone else. The bible doesn't address things like transitioning. It's thousands of years old, how could it? I don't think it is right to try to stretch an ancient text to cover what one "should" and "shouldn't" do in situations it wasn't written to address. Of course, I think my family's church would then argue that the scriptures are the living word of God. Everything that is happening now and will happen is predetermined. By this reasoning, God took everything into account when he handed down the scriptures. These people would then use this line of reasoning to argue that that Deuteronomy scripture was meant literally.

2. The bible is an ancient storybook. The Deuteronomy verse was just a coincidence. There is no god. There is no morality. Do what's right for you.

Okay, well maybe these are two extreme views. There is some middle ground there.

Here's my take on religion: Organized religion is flawed, so I tend to stay away. I'm really tired of having self-righteous people tell me what God means for me to do. If he "speaks" to them, then he can "speak" to me. I'm not sure if I even believe in a creator....maybe I do, maybe I don't. If there is a God, I don't think he made trans people just to see us suffer and be inherently sinful, just because of who we are. As for me, I'm going to do what I feel is right, and if that includes transitioning, so be it. God should love me either way. Now, it's my religious family that I'm not so sure about... They might not love me if I come out to them.

I don't know. Since I was a kid, I was so angry with God for mixing me up that we haven't spoken in a while. I used to pray every night for him to fix me and he never did. Until my mind and body match, I don't know how I'll ever make my peace with God or myself.

Wow, I digress. Religion and gender/sexual orientation issues is a sore spot for me. It makes me so angry that mainstream religion wants me to live out my life alone rather than risk something that MIGHT be a sin. I could go on all night.

[Guest KellyGirl]

well then I'm an abomination. I'm not a crossdresser (I've never done it) but I have wore a dress for a play (it was to be passed off as a robe of some sort) even though my body is "male" I always where male cloths. so if I'm really a female as I feel in my heart I am....well then I'm really an abomination.

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

Many of the things that religious texts condemn are things that basically everyone does now. I wonder why there is a discrepancy now.

[Guest KellyGirl]

Many of the things that religious texts condemn are things that basically everyone does now. I wonder why there is a discrepancy now.

allow me. The bible is essentualy two books (it is infact! the old and new testiments.) the old testement is the "torah" (sp?) or the jewish bible. it talks about everying before jesus came. it has many anchient laws that became moot after jesus's coming.

Leviticus is the biggist offender. it contains the verses about homosexuality, however except in the Living Bible it only says "a man who lays with another man as he does with a woman is an abomination" however. it dosn't say having a homosexual relationship or homosexual feelings are wrong it only says gay sex is wrong. also it only said men, so apprently lesbians just got the green light this was not becuase (in my opinon) there is anything wrong with being homosexual but becuase in these times women were property and sexualy taking the place of a woman (while being male) was horrific in the minds of these people, just like the verse about crossdressing this was a gender/cultureal status thing. not an anti gay thing.

furthermore, Leviticus says you shouldn't mix fibers, eat shrimp and if your children talk back to you your to kill them in cold blood. Chritians with an anti gay agenda take what verses they want to prove their points (while grouping transsexuals with homosexuals for some reason...) and disreguard anything else.... it's obvious these people need to learn a little more about their own religon...I hate fundmentalists....*sighs*

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora ,

Now this is alongy… so be warned... I wanted to cover a number of things related to this topic…Especially some of the comments that some of you have made so far...

This is just some food for thought for those who have not had the opportunity to venture outside the world of American Christian belief ie, their local community’s church congregation…No disrespect intended, my aim hopefully is to get some to think outside their community square…out of their comfort zone so to speak.

I respect those who ‘choose’ to believe [many have been forced to believe] in the concept of a Christian god, I realise many had no option but to go with the flow of their community and that the concept of a god has always been a part of their everyday lives…church, school, work etc…

However Christians both trans and otherwise have to remember a very important fact [ one sadly many conveniently seem to overlook] there are millions of trans-people for whom god and the Christian way of seeing things is ‘totally’ foreign …For example India has around three million hijre [trans-people] and Thailand has tens of thousands of Kathoey…No doubt China will also have millions…['Bing Zing' I think is the term in mandarin]

Now many Thais for example believe a person born transgender committed adultery in a past life and being born in the wrong body is just their ‘karma’ and the interesting thing is they also believe WE all at one stage of our many re-births will commit adultery hence being reborn at lease once transgender…that’s why Thailand is such a trans-friendly country…Please don’t confuse the Buddhist re-birth with the Hindu reincarnation…If you’re not sure then read this it will explain the difference…

http://www.geocities.com/dharmawood/reincarn_v_rebirth.htm

So those who were born into a Christian way of thinking, should realise that as far as religions go, Christianity is a fledgling religion…There are billions of people around the world who are not Christian and lead according to their beliefs somewhat wholesome pure, judgement free lives…without the fear of a god hanging over their heads…and have done for thousands of years…

If one cares to think about it …Like with many other beliefs around the world, those who profess a Christian belief have never known[or had any opportunity to know] anything different than the concept of a Christian god, many of you have been indoctrinated from birth, never been given the freedom to choose, enforced with the predestine crap that churches have spew out to their flocks for hundreds of years… they’ve got you ‘hook line and sinker’…One is lead to believe, If one go against the preacher’s word one is going against god will…Sadly even those who have managed to break the grip of the church are still left clinging to the legacy of the concept of a ‘Christian god … for those who have found comfort with this I’m truly happy for them, but sadly for some trans-people the thought of sin and not going to heaven, can weigh heavily on their minds…

I hope you can see where I’m coming from…ie, if a person does not ‘know’ any better then they will do what they are told, believing that it is the only truth…Especially when being threaten with the wrath of [what I personally see as] an imaginary omnipotent being if they do otherwise – the threat of not being accepted into the Christian heaven…Umm, mental bondage comes to mind…and how convenient for the church…Think about it, a very clever and somewhat seductive sales pitch “if you buy into this religion/church…we’ll throw in a nice long term vacation in paradise!”…Umm, OMG where’s the salesman I don’t want to miss out…

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Here in Aotearoa we have this crack pot self proclaimed arch bishop called Brian Tamaki, he’s the head of destiny church-a group of sheeple who don’t know any better… Umm later, you will see why I also call him a crack pot….

Anyway what always brings a big smile to my face is when I see him on TV[he has his own hour slot to promote bigotry-our government is very egalitarian like that] and he 'brags' that he’s been chosen by god-god speaks to him etc etc...Umm I'm no psychiatrist but schizophrenia does come to mind….

Now in many Islamic countries when a person is thought to be ‘touched’ by god [god speaks to them directly]…locals believe these people are suffering from a Mental Awareness Disorder these Mad people are treated with respect but what they say and do is not taken very seriously…Hence the big smile on my face when Brian or others like him graces our TV screens and 'brag' about being the 'chosen' ones…I should point out I have deep compassion for people who are mentally challenged like Brian…

How many people can truly say that they ‘know’ god…most just know ‘of’ a god and just ‘believe’ he/she exists, because they have been ‘told’ this is true…There’s a big difference between ‘knowing’ and just ‘believing’ …Umm, I guess they don’t call it ‘blind’ faith for nothing…

Well, I think I’ve said enough for now but just one more passing comment…For those of you who claim to have ‘free will’ why not write down a list of things that ‘you’ personally feel would make you an wholesome human being and don’t let the bible influence your thinking when doing this… instead of following the teachings of others who for the most part are expressing their personal prejudices, follow just what’s in your heart…I’m sure your god won’t mind…

Please note…Now some of you might think I’m being a bit harsh when it comes to your religion…I’m not ,I’m just looking at it from an outsider’s view point…ie, from a perspective that’s somewhat ‘baggage free’ so to speak…Whether you agree or disagree with what I write is up to you…But I hope in some way it gets you thinking along more positive lines…There’s a whole big world out there…And believe it or not the world in which 'I and many other's live' does not evolve around 'your' church congregation…We are fortunate or have 'chosen' to live in the 'real' world...

Metta Jendar

[Guest Madison_Always]

I do believe i n God and salvation through Jesus. Im not sure what im suposed to do with my life. i do know God has a plan for my life and every one of your lives. I want to follow Him in everything I do and these trans thoughts keep coming back. Now im not saying God is talking 2 me directly but i can c Him in the intracacy of the world we live i. everything in the universe is so beautiful an d complex there is 0% chance it could have happened by chance a Creator had to craft His creation.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

If the purpose of your post was to make us think, it worked. I definitely did some thinking. Right now I don't consider myself a "Christian", but I was raised in the standard American protestant church. As such, I guess I tend to think about things in a Christian-centric way...without even realizing.

I really enjoyed your post and appreciate that your shared your views! I've always felt like I am a spiritual person, yet was sad that my religion condemned something that is at the core of who I am. All I really ask of a religion is open minded acceptance. I guess that is too much for a lot of mainstream American churches.

[MaryEllen]

If churches would actually follow the teachings of Jesus, there would be no problems. It's narrow minded, self centered men who make up the church leadership that have created this current state of hate, bigotry and condemnation. Writing their own rules and regulations to fit their own narrow minded vision of how things should be. Jesus preached love and forgiveness, not hell fire and damnation that many in church leadership spew forth. There are churches that do follow the teachings of Jesus but sadly, they are few and far between. I feel that I am fortunate to be able to attend such a church. I truly believe that these religious zealots are going to have a sad awakening when the Day of Judgment rolls around.

MaryEllen

[Guest Madison_Always]

exactly maryellen, I find myself loving the Creator but im not always so fond of the creation and the sad part is that some of the most bigoted ppl that r the ones that claim to love Jesus. these ppl r bad examples of Christians and our faith.

[blackkatsen]

It's true that Jesus did teach about love, forgiveness, and repentance, but at the same time he didn't say it's okay to sin. Now Christianity is a very family oriented religion, and that's why there is a lot of opposition to lgbts. lgbts can't make the standard family work. So some churches may be more hateful than others, if a church opposes lgbts, it still may be following the Bible.

Jendar,

God is not to be viewed as a judge, but as the Creator. In Christianity, He created us and our life here is to see how well we follow His commandments. So, yes, in the end, we will be judged, but God loves all of us and wants the best of us. I think it is important to note that true Christianity and most Christian churches are not the same thing. Many Christian churches do believe and preach things that aren't actual commandments from the Lord. Many people in these churches are more like followers than actual believers. This is kind of what you said when you said that people will accept what they've been taught. This is how there are so many contradictions between true Christianity and so many churches. The followers don't have a real testimony of Christ and they don't know the Scriptures. But this doesn't apply to everyone, because there are people who do study the Scriptures and do try to live their lives in a Christlike manner. These churches are closer to true Christianity. These people don't just follow the flock, but have a deeper understanding of the truth.

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

BK, please take a look at the ‘real’ world you will be surprise at what you’re missing…There are same sex couples with children and trans couples with children [family units] the only obstacles they face are ‘Christians’ who can’t come to grips with the fact they are making a go of it and being successful…You may not be familiar with this concept but many parents both straight and same sex believe in a thing called ‘UNCONDITIONAL LOVE’ for many parents and children it a ‘natural’ thing much stronger than any religious beliefs …it’s where Unconditional means unconditional…

You may not realise it, but you have unconditional love for your parents, that is why you will defend their beliefs even though their beliefs go against your strong desires to be who you are…However will your parents show the same ‘unconditional love when and if you ‘out’ yourself to them, or will their 'blind faith' win out and they cast aside their own flesh and blood? I commend you for defending your parents and community’s beliefs and I can understand why you do it…Yet at the same time it saddens me that you might be sacrificing your true-self to please just a belief that as been force upon you…

I’m fortunate to have the ‘unconditional’ love of all my children and just as their love had to adapt to the changes in me, so my love for them will adapt to any changes that they might go through as they grow…

Also you really do have to understand there’s another world out there, a world with a number of different ‘truths’…In the Islamic world their Koran is also seen as the ‘truth’ In Judaism theirs Torah is the ‘truth’…All three mono god religions have the truth and nothing but the truth…According to them…And on top of all these truths they continue to argue amongst each other

I personally will never deny a person the right to ‘believe’ in whatever god they choose…for many, it’s something that they have been indoctrinated with…However for someone to force their god or beliefs upon another, in my eyes is a real sorry state of affairs…The god thing for me and millions of other people is just not tangible…it’s a foreign concept …I do not have to prove to you why there’s no god… for me there’s just not…and for you to try and prove that there is a god would be a waste of time because like yourself I too ‘know’ better or to put it another way I also ‘know’ the ‘truth’….According to my understanding of it which differ greatly from yours. Whether one is right or wrong ONLY TIME WILL TELL...and because I'm fre from anger, hatred and illwill, I can live quite comfortable with that...

What you call god, I call the universal law of cause and effect…Which is an un bias law that balances things out, there’s no good or bad just energies that are positive and negative…I will not go into in depth detail…I just see, feel and interact with this energy everyday, just as you might see your god’s hand at work…The only difference is the Universal law is not ‘judging’ me [or you] it’s our thoughts that lead us to actions with can create positive or negative energies or put another way ‘good or bad’ karma…

If you ‘believe’ that what you feel inside is ‘sinful’ then your mind will create a situation to suit your beliefs…it’s as simple as that…it’s happening to you and many others in the same position as yourself, right this very minute…You feel uncomfortable because your religious conditioning as lead you to belief you are a sinner…While many trans people who also follow the Christian faith no longer 'believe' they are living in sin and are getting on with their lives....

If on the other hand you were born in Thailand your whole outlook on life would be different your parents might still have concerns for your wellbeing which is a natural thing for parents to do, but your gender identity would not be viewed as a ’sin’ it would be accepted as your ‘karma’…However because of your Christian upbringing this concept of acceptance of your gender identity is has you have already proven to me... very hard for you to grasp.

I truly hope that by finding and understanding the meaning of 'free will' it will free your thoughts from the bondage of blind faith...However at this present moment in time[even when you're reading this] all your thoughts, words and deeds are conditions by the Christian faith...

I appreciate your comments BK and hopefully by expressing them openly will allow your mind to truly open up...Remember "The mind is like a 'parachute' ...it works better when it's open!"

And 'Stranded Out There' it's important for many people to be spiritual-spiritality can just be a belief in the goodness of oneself, not necessarily having a belief in a god...We all know compassion and empathy it is not a prerequisite of any religious belief, it's human nature...nothing more nothing less...I'm glad that you 'know' what's right for you...No doubt you have the strengh to overcome any obsticles that may come your way...

Finally...So as not to go off track of the topic... who else has overcome their religious hangups and now lives true to themselves?

Metta Jendar

[Guest Sheila]

i would like to add my opinion on this matter. between bible teachings and what i feel in my heart, i'll follow my heart every time. that's what god gave me free will for in the first place. if anyone wants to be spiritual then they might do well to look inside their heart. i've grown more spiritual looking inside my heart than i have from ever going to church. i was forced to go to church by my parents every sunday until i was 16. the churches "doctoring", well put by the way, did a lot of damage and by the time i was 18 i was a believer in reincarnation. and on the path to salvation. i studied hinduism and everything i could find on reincarnation. bring that subject up with a christian and see where that gets you. the teachings of jesus, love your neighbor, forgive your enemies are good enough guidlines to live your life. these are just my opinions you understand i'm not trying to push my believes on anyone. what i don't like about the christian church is that if you don't accept JC as your saviour then you're damned. what about the hindu's. they're twice as old as the christianand you mean to tell me that all hindu's are damned. i don't think so. i do believe in god and know she's all loving and what about the catholic church? established by none other than christs' disciple peter. now i'm not trying to start trouble here, this is just my opinion, but you have the catholic church harboring pediphiles and that really makes me mad. my hands are already shaking just from the anger welling up inside me and i'm getting way off track. i'm not writting this to bash the church. i love jesus christ. he was real. one last thing here. the church knows mary magdaline was not a prostitute. they know this and still call her a prostitute. back in 1947 at nag hamadi, in egypt, just put nag hamadi in your search engine, and found scrolls buried in the desert. one of the scrolls was the gospel of mary. that's right. mary magdiline was jesus' closest disciple. do you think the chuch would do anything to correct this? if you ever have a chance to read any of the nag hamadi library you'll see also that peter is outright prejudiced against st mary. that's right i concider mary magdiline a saint. it seems peters prejudice set the course for the catholic church, discrimination against women. jesus had every intention of intergrating woman into positions of teachers and rabbi's. i'm really sorry people, i didn't mean to get riled up and way off track here but i feel so much better getting this off of my chest. i think you can get an idea about how i feel about the organized and dogmatic church. forgive me, all. i hope i didn't upset anyone and if i did i apologize.

little girl upset,

sheila

[Guest KellyGirl]

no, I'm glad you brought it up. I compltely forgot. much like my earlier comment you can see that the inturptations of the bible and it's teachings have been messed up. in the past and in the present. you can't let man spread Gods word and expect it to be done right I suppose. I consiider my philophy first and my religon second nowadays. I don't know if I'm really a Christian anymore...

[Guest Mr. Fox]

Ah, Sheila, what enlightenment you have brought to the discussion. Although Christian, I agree with and identify with pretty much everything you said. Although I believe in the Bible, it would be a lie to say that that is from where my morals arise. I also think that Christianity is one of many paths, all leading to the same destination. Finally, I share with you your dislike for churches. Well, a post that completely agrees is basically pointless, but oh well. It shall stay as it is.

Adrian

[Guest Zenda]

no, I'm glad you brought it up. I compltely forgot. much like my earlier comment you can see that the inturptations of the bible and it's teachings have been messed up. in the past and in the present. you can't let man spread Gods word and expect it to be done right I suppose. I consiider my philophy first and my religon second nowadays. I don't know if I'm really a Christian anymore...

Kia Ora, KellyGirl and others...

Now if you were to think about the term ‘Christian’ it means ‘The follower of or believer in Jesus Christ’ You have to remember all that you know about him was put in writing long after he died and I might add by men who had never met him personally-they were going by word of mouth handed then written down through the generations…

What does Christianity ‘mean to you’? If on a personal level, you consider yourself a sinner in the eyes of Jesus...then you have to accept this and carry the burden of the cross so to speak…On the other hand, if you ‘believe’ like many others believe that Jesus would not see you has a sinner and that he preached love and acceptance towards all people…Then you should look for a church that will accommodate your beliefs…I’ve posted a couple of links listing where LGBT friendly places of worship-[Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu and Buddhist]- are in the states and elsewhere…

Just because I find the whole idea of a god intangible and believe that Jesus was just an ‘ordinary’ Jewish bloke with a somewhat ‘extraordinary’ gift of the gab… [who might also have showed kindness, compassion and ‘unconditional’ love, to all that he met,] does not mean I don’t empathise with those who see him as something more than just an ordinary guy and are struggling to come to terms with their faith...

My words are not designed to offend - just the opposite, I hope they will provoke more positive thinking outside the square…

Anyway I hope these links are of some use to those who are struggling…I also hope that the ‘religious’ supportive parents of transgender children will if need be use these links…

http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/Den...nominations.htm

http://www.outyouth.org/resources/links.html

I truly do hope you find what you're looking for....

Metta Jendar

[blackkatsen]

Kia Ora, KellyGirl and others...

Now if you were to think about the term ‘Christian’ it means ‘The follower of or believer in Jesus Christ’ You have to remember all that you know about him was put in writing long after he died and I might add by men who had never met him personally-they were going by word of mouth handed then written down through the generations…

Yes, that definition is correct. But many of the writings about Jesus were written before His birth. The Old Testament is all about Christ and prophets testified of Him all through out it. the New Testament was written between 30 and 70 AD. That's within 40 years of Jesus's death. So the texts weren't written a long time after His death. The latest ones were written only 40 years later.

Yes, there are many different versions of the Bible. There are also a lot of verses that are generally used out of context to try to prove certain points. You need to really study and read the whole Bible to understand the commandments and what it is really saying.

On the other hand, if you ‘believe’ like many others believe that Jesus would not see you has a sinner and that he preached love and acceptance towards all people…

I would just like to add that while Jesus did teach forgiveness he didn't teach that sinning was okay.

This is from John 8:4 - 11:

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

So here Jesus was teaching the others to forgive her of her sin, in this case adultery, but he was still condemning adultery and told the women to not sin.