The Bible’s Teachings …or Free Will?

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I'm aware of all the "go and sin no more" and "turn from your sin" stuff. My question is: How do I do that? If I'm a lesbian, then according to some people, I'm sinning it up big time. If I get GRS and date girls, I guess I'm still doing something wrong according to the church. I imagine that my mom's church would say that since my "sins" are centered around sex issues, then I should just be celibate. That's not cool. I just want to have a normal life where I can be myself...no more, no less.

Why does Christianity have to make all these complicated rules about things that are likely hardwired in our brains? Grrrr!!

Oh well, I think I'd have it worse if my family were Muslim.

[Guest KellyGirl]

Christian means "Christ Like" and so very few fit the bill....

[Guest Kim Smith]

OK, thereis alot of stuff I want to weigh in on, so fasten your seat belts...

First, two of my definitions:

Christianity is the study of the teachings and life of Jesus to deepen your relationship with God.

Religion is the political organization of any sect to provide power to a select few and manipulate all the others.

BK, I don't mean to pick on you, but the new testament was not complete by 70AD. Only three of the gospels were complete by that time. The gospel of John was written somewhere between 75 and 105 AD. A few other books came later. Then much of it was edited and revised when the Romans made Christianity the official religion of the empire around 313 and later when the "official" bible was created and other books left out that had been included all along, some of which are now in the Apocrypha.

Plus, it is really odd that the later the gospel was written, the earlier in Jesus' life he becomes divine. In Mark, the first gospel written, he is made divine at the baptism by John the Baptisit - age ~30. In Matthew and Luke (written about the same time, from mostly the same sources) it is in his childhood. In John, he is presented as one with God before becomining incarnate.

There are two books I recommend to people when religion pops it's ugly head up. The first is "The Powers that Be" by Walter Wink. His general premise is that Jesus' message was one of radical equality - Mary Magdalene and the other women were the disciples who got it! All the other disiples were wandering around wondering what to do, and half expecting Jesus to say "I was only kidding, I really am here to establish a new political Kingdom and make war on all our oppressors. Solomon's glory days will pale in comparison!" More on his book in a bit...

The second is "The Five Gospels" by Robert Funk et al. It is the result of the Jesus Seminar - a group of highly respected theologians who approached the gospels (including the gospel of Thomas) with an archealogical perspective. They sought for evidence and clues of what we know Jesus to have said with some certainty. The had a serious voting system to assign one of four colors to the sayings of Jesus - Red for things they believed Jesus actually said, Pink for things he probably said, though they don't have the evidence or confidence as much as the red sayings. Gray is for things that Jesus probably didn't say, but they don't have evidence to the contrary. Black is for things that are highly likely were added long after the fact for poetic license, to prove a point, or for a political reason in the early church. (Most of the gospel of John is in black text. The original ending of the gospel of Mark is 3-4 chapters before the current ending.)

So now to my next point.

If you had done some serious theological study, you would know that one of Jesus' pet peeves was the Jewish purity laws. That is what the scripture that is being quoted from Leviticus and Deuteronomy is. I may have this wrong, but I believe it was originally intended to simply keep the Hebrew people alive - and which produces things like Kosher cooking and a ban on pork. Walter Wink claims in his book that in Jesus' time (much later) these were simply used by the elite of society to preserve their power over others in the society. The Pharisees and Saducees (all men, btw) were allowed to continue to rule the Jewish state so long as the whims of Rome were obeyed, and no Roman laws broken. They used these laws and others to keep women, the underclass, etc. in their place (while I'm on this rant, Jesus profession of "Carpenter" is a modern day euphamism. His family was definitely in the underclass of "untouchables" in that society, despite his apperent direct lineage from King David.)

So Jesus associated with lepers, cured the sick, ate with Women and Gentiles, and extolled the virtues of Samaritans, all of which are reviled in one form or other in these purity laws. So if I, as a crossdresser, am damned by the violation of these scriptures, then I am in very good company!

So here is my real point:

Go to a church. Feel out the political atmosphere. See how liberal they really are. Don't be afraid to leave - tell them you are just shopping. DO NOT out yourself right away, but when you find a liberal church, get some Christian (or Muslim, Jewish, Hindu , etc) education. Read some books. Find a liberal 'preacher' and ask lots of questions!

As a start, for Christians, try Episcopal (they ordained an openly gay man as Bishop of New Hampshire - Gene Robinson.) Or UCC - United Church of Christ (a UCC minister once told me UCC actually means Unitarians Considering Christ. I went to a UCC chuch a few years ago that had a transgendered person greeting the parishioners as they entered!) Keep going until you find one where you feel comfortable. I knew I was home when a minister told me that the Bible is a collection of stories, some of which actually happened, and all of which can teach you about God.

One final note. Paul Tillich once wrote a sermon about "God loves you and accepts you. All you have to do is accept that love and acceptance." A Methodist preacher I know even went further - he said God loves you. Period. As one other person alluded to in this thread - Sin is that which separates you from relationship with God.

I love the Lord my God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind and with all my strength. And I love my neighbor as myself. And I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God.

I defy anyone to tell me that wearing women's clothing has any bearing on that whatsoever.

In fact, it is much more likely that those that hate me because of it are themselves separating themselves from God in that act of hatred.

So I pray for them.

Peace be with you.

Kim

[Guest KellyGirl]

Kim. that was really beatiful in it's own right. I mean. I wish there were more like you.

Christians need to take the true message of Christ to heart. to really try to be..."christ like" well that's impossible. but impossible goals make all the diffrence in this world.

[blackkatsen]

Sorry Kim, but I think your definition of religion gets 0 of 200 points.

I agree that God loves all of us. Sin is the only way to separate ourselves from Him. It is through sin that we break away from Him and if we accumulate enough sin and don't repent, we may be eternally separated from His presence. I believe the Bible is truly inspired doctrine. It is not just a collection of stories. Blasphemy.

you see there is true Christianity and mainstream Christianity. The term mainstream shows you how it is so much more popular than the true Christianity.

[Guest Kim Smith]

KellyGirl,

Thank you for your kind words!

And you are right - we all need to strive for that goal even though it may not be in our reach. But the acts we perform as we strive are what define us. So if you think of it that way, there are many people like me - I'm just more vocal!

BK,

(Correct me if I misrepresent you) You believe that the bible is the "inspired word of God" and everything in it happened exactly as it is stated.

I believe that the bible contains TRUTH, though some of that truth is told in metaphors. The stories in it were handed down through generations, and some are just that - stories, told to people of each generation to try to describe and define God, but often told to describe the people of the stories and their struggle to understand the incompehensible. Or, quite possibly, to stay alive.

But I am completely willing to let you believe what you believe and not tell you to change. Who knows, you might even be right. But I also demand the same in return. Don't accuse me of Blasphemy when I am, in fact, in rigorous adherence to my faith!

It is also possible that my cynical definition of religion is wrong. I guess it is just my experience that organizations tend to produce corruption and people with the love of power gain the positions of power, because the people with the power of love are busy spreading their power among the people.

God, and God's love for me is the central fact of my existence. From that flows my commitment to the guiding principal of my life: So many people in this world struggle with fear, anger, or are hurting in other ways. My goal is to at least not add to their stress, and if possible, to bring a little light into their lives.

Even though I believe much of the quotes of Jesus in the gospel of John was not things that Jesus actually said, it is still beautiful and can give you peace in these troubled times - The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness shall not overcome it. How can anyone evn think that and not feel God's presence and love in their hearts?

In his forum though, we have discussed if the act of dressing as the opposite gender is a sin. My point is this: since I do not ascribe to the "word of God" version of the bible, I can understand that the purity laws had their place, but not in today's world. If you read them literally, anyone who wears cotton/poly blend shirts is equally as damned as gays and crossdressers. How can that make sense?

And finally, how can I be mainstream when there are only 2.4 million Episcopalians in the US compared to 15 million Southern Baptists (and 37 million Baptists in the US when you add in all the other denominations?) Seems to me yours is the popular one.

I will close with part of the closing prayer from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer (page 365)

Send us now into the world in Peace

And grant us Strength and Courage

To Love and Serve You

With Gladness and Singleness of Faith

Through Christ our Lord.

Amen

The Peace of the Lord be always with you. This day, and forevermore.

Kim

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I agree that God loves all of us. Sin is the only way to separate ourselves from Him. It is through sin that we break away from Him and if we accumulate enough sin and don't repent, we may be eternally separated from His presence. I believe the Bible is truly inspired doctrine. It is not just a collection of stories. Blasphemy.

The problem is that no one has a clear idea of what sin is. There are things that Catholics think are sins that protestants are fine with (e.g. birth control). The Bible isn't clear on a lot of stuff. I mean is the only condemnation of homosexuality in the Old Testament? I'm sure that those same people that quote Leviticus for one thing are sure enough trotting right off to put some cheese on their ham sandwich (you aren't supposed to serve meat with dairy). You can't pick and choose. If you decide to follow all the stuff in Leviticus (and were ever else those Jewish purity laws are), you'll find yourself doing all kinds of weird stuff.

[blackkatsen]

Sorry Kim, I wasn't trying to accuse you of blasphemy. That was more of a joke.

The Old Testament is sometimes called the Letter of the Law and the New Testament is called the Spirit of the Law. The Old Testament is the Letter meaning it has detail after detail after detail. Some of these may have been to help keep the Israelites safe and healthy, such as don't eat pork, and others were for another reason. The Lord couldn't give the simple commandment. The reason is the Israelites wouldn't have known how to follow it. In the New Testament, Jesus revealed that the Mosaic Law didn't need to be followed and He gave the simpler, Spirit law: To love the Lord. He said that is the greatest commandment and the second greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor. Now, this isn't very detailed. If you follow the Mosaic Law, you'll be following this simpler law as well. So the mix in fabrics and eating meat with dairy is not necessary anymore. It's the old law.

SOT, there are some verses in the New Testament that are used to condemn homosexuality. There's one in Romans that I haven't seen a real good response to.

I agree that there may be some stories in the Bible, in the form of parables and metaphors, but I believe most of the stories that you normally hear really happened. So there's a mix.

I'm not Baptist. I don't know all the differences between Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic.. and so on, but they're in my definition of mainstream.

[Guest KellyGirl]

The problem is that no one has a clear idea of what sin is. There are things that Catholics think are sins that protestants are fine with (e.g. birth control). The Bible isn't clear on a lot of stuff. I mean is the only condemnation of homosexuality in the Old Testament? I'm sure that those same people that quote Leviticus for one thing are sure enough trotting right off to put some cheese on their ham sandwich (you aren't supposed to serve meat with dairy). You can't pick and choose. If you decide to follow all the stuff in Leviticus (and were ever else those Jewish purity laws are), you'll find yourself doing all kinds of weird stuff.

I agree

to sum it up...go here

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

[Guest GoldenKirbichu]

The question of sin is a highly moot point to me. First one must believe that there is such thing as sinning. Then one must define what it means to sin. Neither of these two things have a solid definition that can be tested in any tangible way, as they are both extremely subjective.

[Guest Sheila]

hi kim,

you write so well and i enjoyed reading your post. i love the definition of the differnce between christianity and religion. good food for thought.

thank you,

sheila

[Guest Ray#2]

Very interesting stuff on here so far...just thought I would add my insight. The Old Testiment was created to keep God's chosen people, the Jews, safe. It is basically a law book for them to follow. A lot of things stated in the Old T Christians no longer follow, having more than one wife, and such. All 5 of the OT references to homosexual activity are taken out of context by every Christian trying to prove that homosexuality is a sin. Four of these OT references are in relation to the pegan religious practices of the Cannanites, neighbors to the Jews at the time. These people would engage in homosexual activity in order to worship their many gods. They were heterosexuals practicing homosexual activity for worship purposes, which is clearly a sin according to those scriptures. If you were to read those verses you would find lists of worship practices such as having sex while a woman was on her period. The Cannanites did all of these things that God was trying to tell the Jews not to do themselves. The OT says nothing on homosexuals practicing homosexual activities in a loving relationship or not. Now some, such as my parents, believe that there is no such thing as a homosexual. That we are all just confused heteros...of course we know that is simply not true.

The 5th OT reference is the story of the Sodomiate men wanted to have sex with the angels that visited Lot. The Jews had a very tight hospitality law which was in clear violation since the men of the city attacked the house to get the angels to come outside so the could rape them. Furthermore, rape is always a sin! The Bible tells us that these men are very wicked and sinnful. It is crazy and an insult to a Christian's intellegence to use this story as a means of calling homosexuality a sin. Obviously if there were two other sins involved one cannot simply say that homosexuality is the sin being commented on here. It really is something to think about.

Secondly, there is only one verse in the New Testiment that could be used against us. And just let me point out that Jesus himself never spoke on the subject of modern sexuality issues. Romans 1:26 states that people turned from their natural ways, men lying with men and women with women. The fact that Paul uses the Greek words for Natural ways other than homosexuality, implies that God himself understands that Gay, Lesbian and Trans people are biologically induced into their sexuality. This leaves us with no other conclusion than as long as it is in fact a natural, biological feeling it is in fact not sin. It is a sin for heterosexual people to practice homosexuality and a sin for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals.

Our God created each one of us and is not blind. He knows what is in our brains and in our hearts. The Bible says that he knew us while we were in our mother's womb. He knows who we are and that we are not sinning. I believe that the hatred toward sexual minorities is politically based rather that religiously based. I challenged my parents to argue me down and they cannot. The only spouted out things that they have heard and verses taken out of context. There is nothing in the Bible that even comes close to clasifying homosexuals or transgendered people as commiting sexual sins.

I am a transgendered Christian. I follow Biblical principle set forth, but I do not simply believe what a higher positioned authority tells me. I would like to see everyone who calls himself Christian read the Bible and study it well, along with Greek and Hebrew commentaries. I desire to always be prepared to defend my faith and my sexuality.

Ray #2...I know its long but I love this subject

[Guest Leah1026]

Christian means "Christ Like" and so very few fit the bill....

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

~Mohandas Gandhi

Just so you know I am Catholic. I just found this quote quite appropriate.