Passing Pointers Exchange!

[Guest kelise]

It occured to me in another thread that the way MTFs are learning to pass as women now in their transitions, FTMs had to learn at 5-6 years old, and vice-versa. All those lessons we wish we were taught as kids we have collectiely here.

What pointers did you pick up growing up as your birth sex that you think could help the other side pass better in their new sex? This includes posture, gait, body language, ways of speaking, social structures, anything your parents, siblings, or birth sex friends taught you growing up about behaviour you "should" exude?

[Guest JaniceW]

It occured to me in another thread that the way MTFs are learning to pass as women now in their transitions, FTMs had to learn at 5-6 years old, and vice-versa. All those lessons we wish we were taught as kids we have collectiely here.

What pointers did you pick up growing up as your birth sex that you think could help the other side pass better in their new sex? This includes posture, gait, body language, ways of speaking, social structures, anything your parents, siblings, or birth sex friends taught you growing up about behaviour you "should" exude?

Kelise,

What a great idea for a thread.

Let me jump in and try to get things started a bit. I remember clearly that one of the biggest things was competition. Amongst the guy it was always I am the fastest, I am the strongest, I am the smartest, I can hit the ball fartherest, etc. The relationship between guys was always trying to out do the other guy. We learned to posture ourselves so that we were in some way intimidating to the other guys around us. The times we would be cooperative was only when challenged by another group of guys, but even then we were always trying to be the one that did the best in the competition. If it was a baseball game, yes our team would work together to beat the other team, but we also tried our best to the be the one that hit the homerun or caught the deep fly ball and saved the day for our team.

This competition fell over into how we talked, our choice of vocabulary, and how we walked, aggressive and determined, sort of a get out of my way I'm coming through approach. Don't cross in front of me or you will get stepped on.

[Guest Opal]

Lets see, for FTMs for casual clothes a bit of mismatch and fade is OK, just do not get carried away. Call it a shirt, never a top. Never refer to your 'outfit'.

Be a bit uncomfortable with pink clothing, although something showing your support for Breast Cancer Awareness is OK.

Please keep in mind I am in a pretty rural setting, so an Urban setting can be quite different.

I will try to think of some more.

[Guest KimberlyF]

My guy knowledge is really limited. I mostly sit in the shadows. But I've picked up a few things. Off the top of my head:

You're supposed to have a nice firm handshake and look the person in the eyes.

I always screw that one up and I know it's coming.

Always skip a urinal if one is avail in the bathroom and someone is using one and no talking. Get in, get out. Same rules for shopping.

Kim

[Paula ult]

Kairi,

This is a great topic, one i think about from time to time, growing up in the 50's and 60's most women were those "leave it to beaver" cookie cutter moms, including my mother and grandmother, i would watch them put on makeup, lipstick etc, i learned that after putting on lipstick you purse your lips to get the lipstick more even, then take a napkin or paper towel and put it between your lips and press your lips together, this is supposed to set the lipstick so it lasts longer and removes any excess lipstick, of course today i use lip stains.

I learned the easy way to put on a bra, put it on backwards so the clasps are in front, makes things easier, then with the bra clasped turn the bra around your body till the cups are in front and slip your arms through the straps, i use this method today.

Cooking is one thing i learned from my grandmother, i frequently watched her cook, in those days there was always a home cooked meal and everyone gathered around the dining room table for dinner, sadly hardly anyone ever does this anymore, i learned how to tell if a cake was done, stick a toothpick or a knife in the middle, if it comes out clean the cake is done, to check if a meatloaf was done, cut a little sliver out of the middle and see if it is done. I still have all my grandmothers recipes and make one from time to time to relive those good days.

It is strange thinking back that they allowed me to watch them getting dressed and putting on their makeup, maybe they knew i was different, just as i knew i was.

I learned tricks about gardening from my grandfather, every year we had a huge garden, we sold corn, tomatoes, strawberries etc curbside, it was a good learning experience, i use things i learned from him all the time.

Paula

[Guest Lily B]

for ftm:

Extended eye contact is generally good in Canada and the US but is seen as aggressive in Latin America, so keep it brief unless you want to offend.

Confidence is key.

Play video games! seriously.

Feign indifference.

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

Oh my goodness....

For you FTM's.....

Stand with your thumbs in your jean pockets...

Keep your hands away from your face...those are feminine moves...

When sitting ...cross your legs with ankle on knee...not knee on knee...

Males sit back in a chair...women sit forward...

Don't walk with your elbows close to your side...men have a "stance"...

At a desk or table...don't rest your chin in both fists...that is a feminine move....

Point at things with index finger and hand closed...

Stand with fee apart...men need "territory"....

One or both elbows on the table at mealtime is male...women keep elbows off the table...

Spit....

Scratch....

Burp.....

Pass gas.....

Laugh loudly....

Only touch other guys for a handshake or a shoulder punch...(Noogies work if you're younger)

And, how do I know all this stuff?

Heck, I had to learn it....after all, I was a woman in a male body...these were my defense mechinisms to fit in.

That's mostly all gone now, except for the burps....can't help that sometimes...

Donna Jean

[Carolyn Marie]

In addition to all the great stuff already mentioned:

Never smile at passers by or strangers, unless you're trying to pick up a girl.

Never talk to anyone in the restroom, or even make eye contact.

Be assertive: say "I want" not "may I have." "Tell me" not "please show me"

Refrain from touching people unless you know them well. That includes co-workers.

Don't talk with your hands too much (unless you're Greek).

Guy hugs are OK, especially if you're under 20 (learned that from my son).

Carolyn Marie

[JJ]

There are so many cultural differences. In those I was socialized female. Yet so many of the things suggested for males I have always done. No wonder I never quite fit.

With women-never feel your competitiveness and aggression are male. Women have those emotions too-it is their expression that is different. Women do work together-but someone is always in charge-usually based on social or a group status. Subtly displayed-not overtly like a man. Drives me crazy that. Women are very competitive with each other. Whose kids did what, whose illness is worst-and women talk about their ills-whose house is cleanest, whose life is busiest. Who has the best figure or cooks best -on and on.Who has the newest clothes All competitive. All subtle and indirect to a man but clear to other women. Learn to condemn with faint praise too. You are expected not to compete with men by the way. One reason men don't see how competitive women really are.

And one of the biggies is anger. I think the most frequent male expression I see here from MtFs is their anger. Women get angry-as deeply as any man. But in our society it is not as openly expressed. Anger is almost never ever confrontational except with a child or a spouse.and even then the initial impulse is to withdraw before coming back with devastating words.. A woman never says I'm going to get that so and so. They get even. But not by direct confrontation. By innuendo, by devastating words, by being hurt, a hundred ways.

I say these things because sometimes I hear here a romanticized idea of women. A rejection of aggression and anger because it is male that isn't healthy. That puts pressures and impossible demands on those who deny those feelings. You are women-your feelings are natural and valid. It's just the way of expressing them that sometimes needs unlearned. As I said what I most often see is male expressions of anger. It was necessary to express anger in male mode to survive. But is telling and counterproductive in the woman you are.

Love

John

[Guest KimberlyF]

Pass gas.....

That's mostly all gone now, except for the burps....can't help that sometimes...

Donna Jean

Yeah...about this. Did your HRT cause the gas to go away and do you think that would work on a GG, cause my wife is like a freakin' machine gun some nights.

Kim

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Another MTF here - such good advice already

The most obvious omission (Dee Jay came close) is to know guys are gross with 'head fluids.'

If you gotta a bugger - pick and flick.

If you gotta oyster down low, hock it up and toss it out. Points for distance.

Nose stuffed solid? Lay a finger aside one nostril and blow the other side clear. Repeat.

Iffin you have a cold or congestion and need to clear the passages, suck it all in hard, consolidate it in the back of your throat, slide it to the tongue and taste for saltness (judging if its gonna be gray or green when it hits the ground) - then hock it out!

Polite society (girls around) use a wadded up batch af toilet paper to hack into. (Requires forethought - usually you forgot to load up last time you was in the john) or look for a napkin on the table or in dire circumstnces, borrow somebody's kleenex. (DO NOT USE THE DRAPES!) Iffin people are watching - an "excuse me' solves all social ills and lets you off the hook when you wipe the overspill on the sides of your pants.

If by your lonesome - but still in civilization, try to be sanitary, or at least not too obvious!

If you are in the woods or operating heavy machinery - anything is okay, just watch the wind direction.

But iffin people looks at you like you was some terrible wild animal, make note of what you MIGHTA done wrong and try not to do it again, if you remember in time.

SO

If you are grossed out by the above? You are female in heart and mindset.

Ifin you think it was knda cool! You are a dude, man! ROCK ON

I hope this helps...

Demure and proper - Lizzy

[Carolyn Marie]

Lizzzzyyyy!

THAT'S GROSS!!

Come on Elizabeth. We want to develop young men with class and dignity here. We don't want LP to be known as

a place where we turn out slobs.

Remember guys, if you want to attract a proper lady, behave like a proper gentleman. It works!

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

*sigh*........Liz, I was waiting for that....

it was just a matter of time...

ewwwwwwwwww....

dj

[JJ]

Did I suggest that women need to bawl all the time-when the cookies burn or a sad commercial comes on tv?

Or smack everything in sight with a purse as they turn from side to side trying to find the shortest line in the store?

Did I advise that you should gaze helplessly into the eyes of the nearest male and ask sweetly for help then proceed to tell him exactly how to do what you asked him to do for you?

Did I mention underwear spread around bathrooms dripping everywhere?

Or using a fine razor on any body part that needs attention without respecting it's maintenance needs?

And speaking of maintenance-you really should ignore all lights that appear in the dash of the car as long as the thing continues to run. And look as forlorn as possible when it ceases.

You should offer instructions on every aspect of driving starting with instructions to buckle up as the door is opened to get in.

And no matter that you can clean a dirty toilet and manage fine crochet and sewing you should always wrinkle your nose in disgust at baiting hooks and hopelessly snarl your reel every half hour when fishing. Be sure to yell out questions you normally whisper too. Vital questions such as "Do I look cute in this top?". Above all cast directly across your companion's line-especially if there is any indication he has a fish biting or hooked-then giggle.

And ask a question but don't pause talking for an answer.

Women!

So there Lizzy

John

[Guest kelise]

Awesome thus far! Here's mine.

It kills me to write this because it's so homophobic in nature, but guys are very uncomfortable touching each other. Think about the way we act when taking a group picture. A bunch of girls in a group picture will put their arms around each other, touch cheeks, etc. Guys stand all rigid with their elbows out and chests all puffed up, making sure they have "space". There can be no less than than 4 inches between men's bodies, unless it's while playing sports. This discomfort really comes up in the men's room. As has been said before, in a men's room there is no eye contact, and NO TALKING! Latent homophobia law says that in a room where penises are exposed, eyes should be focused on the ceiling or immediate vicinity floor, because should one man see another man's penis, the world WILL END! Even men who aren't homophobic and know these discomforts are rediculous still feel them and don't break the rules.

I hope the guys are getting out of this what I got out of John's post. John, I love it, I LOVE it! I want some more of it! That was exactly what I was looking for! If you can, I'd love more elaboration. Come on FTM's I want to hear more from you!

[Guest Opal]

If two guys are making insulting remarks to each other, they are likely good friends. Better to leave them be. They know their boundaries.

[Guest kelise]

Oh, and always wait 3 days minimum before calling a girl back.

If you want the guys to not make fun of you.

If you want the GIRL to like you, call her the naxt day, at MOST!

[Guest kelise]

Gold, JOhn! Solid Gold! I love it!!

[Guest kelise]

(Scribbles notes..scribble scribble scribble)

[JJ]

One more thing

Keep your house neat and organized but anything vaguely resembling a tool should be jumbled together in a lump in a drawer or if borrowed from a male returned to somewhere in the vicinity of where it was. But never put it back. Preferably also cover it with items from part 2 here.. Should you be lucky enough to have a workshop available see it as a storage shed for all that stuff you might want to use some day. Stack at random around the floor and on any work surfaces.

To really take this behavior to it's ultimate conclusion then ask a male to stack the boxes neatly for you and go out the next day and put them back like they were while looking for something you don't find. Then complain about how dusty and dirty the shop is.

Guaranteed to get you referred to as a woman. Well, there may be other adjectives, but woman will definitely come into the conversation.

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

Grab your local newspaper....

Go to the sports pages....

Look at any pics of female athletes ......smiling..

Look at any pics of male athletes.........scowling..

That is all...

Dee Jay

[Guest NatashaJade]

And speaking of maintenance-you really should ignore all lights that appear in the dash of the car as long as the thing continues to run. And look as forlorn as possible when it ceases.

:lol: My first car was a '69 Beetle (powder blue...such a manly vehicle for a 16 year old guy ). For the longest time, this funny light stayed lit on the dash and I just kept thinking that the engine is air-cooled or some such thing which meant that there wasn't a problem and the light was just kind of a thing used by the car company to make me take it in for service and I wasn't going to be a slave to any old dashboard light. Soooo...I was driving on the 405 freeway in SoCal, doing about 80 in the fast lane (as fast as that little Beetle would go) and suddenly it stopped. I had enough forward momentum and clear lanes to get the car over to the right shoulder (over four lanes!) and used the call box (this was back in '86). The tow truck driver thought it might be one thing, but took me to the German Autohaus where Hans opened the hood, took one look at the engine and said, in is remarkable German accent, "You engine is seized!"

Which, of course, resulted in me having to call my dad to come and pick me up. I imagine my look was as forlorn as possible.

I did learn the oil light means that you should check the dip stick thingy and put more oil in (or, better yet, get someone who knows what those things under the hood do to do it for you every 3-5000 miles, or whenever the service sticker says to bring it in).

xoxo

Gin

[JJ]

:lol:

Yup-you nailed that one Gin!

Hugs

John

[Guest KimberlyF]

If you're with a group of guys and a woman walks past, you have to grade her doability and being graphic is a plus. This is an exercise in fantasyland so you being a 3 and her being a 10 really isn't a factor. And this also applies anytime you read a magazine.

If I had a dollar every time I've heard "Yeah, I'd do her." on the job, I'd prob pay for SRS.

Kim

[Guest kelise]

:lol: My first car was a '69 Beetle (powder blue...such a manly vehicle for a 16 year old guy ). For the longest time, this funny light stayed lit on the dash and I just kept thinking that the engine is air-cooled or some such thing which meant that there wasn't a problem and the light was just kind of a thing used by the car company to make me take it in for service and I wasn't going to be a slave to any old dashboard light. Soooo...I was driving on the 405 freeway in SoCal, doing about 80 in the fast lane (as fast as that little Beetle would go) and suddenly it stopped. I had enough forward momentum and clear lanes to get the car over to the right shoulder (over four lanes!) and used the call box (this was back in '86). The tow truck driver thought it might be one thing, but took me to the German Autohaus where Hans opened the hood, took one look at the engine and said, in is remarkable German accent, "You engine is seized!"

Which, of course, resulted in me having to call my dad to come and pick me up. I imagine my look was as forlorn as possible.

I did learn the oil light means that you should check the dip stick thingy and put more oil in (or, better yet, get someone who knows what those things under the hood do to do it for you every 3-5000 miles, or whenever the service sticker says to bring it in).

xoxo

Gin

That happened to MY first car! It was my dad's old minivan I bought off him for $500. After about 6 months this wierd red light came on and the engine started making this clicking noise. Three months later the engine threw a rod. It was only after that they decided to inform me that one has to get one's oil changed every three thousand miles. Pain in the butt! Why is car maintenence so pesky and expensive? They should design them better.

One more thing

Keep your house neat and organized but anything vaguely resembling a tool should be jumbled together in a lump in a drawer or if borrowed from a male returned to somewhere in the vicinity of where it was. But never put it back. Preferably also cover it with items from part 2 here.. Should you be lucky enough to have a workshop available see it as a storage shed for all that stuff you might want to use some day. Stack at random around the floor and on any work surfaces.

To really take this behavior to it's ultimate conclusion then ask a male to stack the boxes neatly for you and go out the next day and put them back like they were while looking for something you don't find. Then complain about how dusty and dirty the shop is.

Guaranteed to get you referred to as a woman. Well, there may be other adjectives, but woman will definitely come into the conversation.

scribble scribble scribble

Seriously guys, even getting silly and starting a battle of the sexes, I'm finding it very informative and beneficial because it's engrained in us from childhood.

Where are the FTMs! I wanna hear more!