Man Who Had Two Sex Changes Says They Should Be Outlawed

[Carolyn Marie]

What's the SoC?

It stands for the Standards of Care, adopted by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).

They are the guidelines used by health care professionals to evaluate and treat cases of gender identity disorder (GID).

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Jo-Ann]

sounds pretty angry to me and is againest transition something is wrong there i mean being bored of shopping and just not being tolerant of others i think its not true what he says that he is not trans i feel that something is wrong with this person.I think something made him unhappy as a women so much he turned on them like he could not buy something poor decision ill say very sad

Jo-Ann

[Guest tori319]

In many ways, we, as a supposed advanced society, lost something along the way.

In days past, not only was being transgendered recognized, it was respected and revered.

What happened?

Brenda

Really, when was this?

[Guest Nikole]

Wow, what a tool. I mean, I don't know what the SoC was like back when he had his first sex change, but completely bypassing ANY therapy and doing something so drastic is rediculous. And then to have the audacity so actually sit there and contradict himself and say that sex changes should be outlawed because he was not informed or made a mistake? "I didn't need a sex change, I needed therapy." Really genius? I'm sure that's exactly why therapy is required, and at least a year of real life stuff before sex change operations can be performed now.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Really, when was this?

Finally found it

Here's a link to a post that I made last month

http://www.lauras-playground.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25610&st=0&p=248411&hl=history&fromsearch=1entry248411

Love

Brenda

[Guest kelise]

Really, when was this?

Before Christianity took over the earth. Many Native American tribes called us "two-spirit" and we aften held high-ranking positions in the thribes. usually medicine men/women, or other religeous figures. In India, MTF's became high priestesses who were believed to be the only one's able to speak to a particular fertility Goddess who's name slips my mind. We were sought after to perform weddings to gauruntee a fertile marrige, and oversee births to ensure a healthy baby. In ancient Rome, we were part of a group called Eunuchs which also included gay men and were used to guard a powerful man's harem.

[Guest kelise]

We actually have quite a bit of history that tends to be ignored. There were many Civil War heros on both sides who were discovered after death to have been FTMs.

And here's a little nugget you won't read about in many history books. In cup cake Germany, GLBT folks were rounded up and sent to the ovens in Aucshwitz and the other concentration camps right along with the Jews, only difference is, when the Allied Forces showed up and rescued the Jews, once they figured out the records, WE were LEFT BEHIND to finish out our sentences!

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Before Christianity took over the earth. Many Native American tribes called us "two-spirit" and we aften held high-ranking positions in the thribes. usually medicine men/women, or other religeous figures. In India, MTF's became high priestesses who were believed to be the only one's able to speak to a particular fertility Goddess who's name slips my mind. We were sought after to perform weddings to gauruntee a fertile marrige, and oversee births to ensure a healthy baby. In ancient Rome, we were part of a group called Eunuchs which also included gay men and were used to guard a powerful man's harem.

looked it up

Wikipedia : The cult of Cybele, in which devotees castrated themselves in ecstatic emulation of Attis

Actually, many two spirts may have been intersexed. In western society these children were killed as 'monsters.'

Lizzy

[Drea]

I got to admit this guy is a bit overboard in his declaration that the transition stuff should be outlawed.

As I have matured I have tended to see events like this as having some lessons to be learned. Of course he rushed into things, but, does that make him any different than others who would have had surgery in an instant if they could as Sakura has suggested? In chat I have certainly encounted several individuals who have rushed, found surgeons (at standard rates) who have been willing to perform surgery with nothing more than a simple interview.

I also have known people who have done all the work, adhered to the standards and ended up in the same place.

From what I read it wasn't till 7 years after the first transition that this person decided they made a mistake. This seems very consistant with the 5 to 10 year post-op evalatuation phase and well after the typical post-op euphoria phase.

If this person was similar to those I have known personally, I expect during this person's own transition that this person would have been very vocal about how they were a true transsexual, and would have sung the praises of HRT and of SRS. Of course I could be wrong on that equivalence. Still of the cases of those de-transitioning where I known in person, that was true however.

I certainly find myself thinking this persons assertion that SRS or however the person put it should be outlawed is unfair projection of their issues. I know SRS can be quite helpful provided one has realistic expectations and has not gotten their head full of fantasies like this individual had.

Still, on the other hand, I wonder that perhaps that the best perspective for one to judge this person would be when one has become 7 years post-op themself. I suspect how one sees things 7 years down the road is very different than one perceives things when in the middle of the changes.

[Milly]

Sometimes playing devils advocate is not necessary and I do believe this is one of those situations. :/ to each their own even if it makes them seem disconnected.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Once again I am reminded of the woman that I work with...

She is technically trans, but that is irrelevant to her. She is now and always has been a woman. She transitioned in the year 2000. She still works where I work, and is very happy and is very satisfied.

She is lovely, and an extremely wonderful human being.

All posts from the internet are irrelevant to me. I know what is possible. I know that post op depression does not have to exist. Post op depression may happen, but one must not ever feel that they are alone in all of this.

It is in all of your best interests to get to know someone who has transitioned in real-life. In your real-life.

You will then truly understand.

It really is a matter of self realization and preservation.

We are who we are. Live as yourself. It really is possible

And most of all... Take your time

HUGS

Brenda

[Guest Sascha]

kelise, on 10 November 2010 - 11:15 PM, said:

Before Christianity took over the earth. Many Native American tribes called us "two-spirit" and we aften held high-ranking positions in the thribes. usually medicine men/women, or other religeous figures. In India, MTF's became high priestesses who were believed to be the only one's able to speak to a particular fertility Goddess who's name slips my mind. We were sought after to perform weddings to gauruntee a fertile marrige, and oversee births to ensure a healthy baby. In ancient Rome, we were part of a group called Eunuchs which also included gay men and were used to guard a powerful man's harem.

Sounds plausible. However it's difficult to find some scientific research in anthropology which actually proves this was so. Lot of it might be hearsay, as many stories of the past are. But it is common for medicine man to be social outcasts before they became medicine men. e.g. they were casted out from society and went into the unknown wild and had a couple of epiphanies with the universe while being all alone, with which they returned to the tribe and used the experience for educating others. They usually lived on the borders of society, just as we do today.

[Guest ChloëC]

Brenda,

You asked a few posts ago, what happened over time?

Well, we can thank the Victorian and Edwardian eras in England for most of our (western civilization) current attitudes towards sex and other bodily functions. They turned it all into bathroom humor by neatly separating love (ok) and sex (bad), and all their hang-ups are still floating around.

What is really surprising is that what happened in the 60's (Flower Power, Free love, etc) had very little lasting influence. Playboy Magazine for instance is still considered a very obscene publication by many people. The Baby Boomers are now in power more and less, and the US is more messed up than it's been in years. So much for Woodstock.

Hugs

Chloë

[Drea]

Brenda, I think this is the 4th or 5th time you have talked about your co-worker in a thread I been active in. I am sure you have mentioned her more. Every time you have however, it sounded like your describing me. I am a bit reticent to admit that as I tend to avoid making myself the subject of posts. It really does seem uncanny though. Now that you mentioned she transitioned in 2000 its even more amazing. Clearly not me however as I changed jobs a few years ago.

Still, if she transitioned in 2000, and was active within the trans community on the internet at the time, there is a fair chance our paths crossed. In many ways the trans community online is still pretty small, but it was far smaller back then. If she and you are in the northeast wouldn't that be uncanny if I actually know her?

She sounds like someone I could really relate to. Of course from the bit you have mentioned of her there is no way to know her personality. Still it would be a total hoot if she turned out to be one of my friends from that period that I have since lost track of. I have had seemingly less likely events happen such as the time I went to interview for a job post-transition and discovered the person interviewing me was a guy I hung out with in college.

Certainly it is hard to know someone from first hand communication in chat or a forum like this. Certainly much harder when its second hand, but she sounds like a wonderful person and I am glad you have such a person as a role model.

I agree totally with you that it is in ones best interest to know someone in one's real life who has transitioned. Not just transitioned but also successful and have their life in order. These are the people who have found a way to get through the trans stuff and make their life work. Thus the advice they can offer is potentially very valuable. I would also add that it best if the person has gotten close to 10 years post-op as they have matured quite a bit by that time and have a much longer perspective on things.

The tricky part can be opening a dialog with such a person unless you knew them at the time they transitioned. It involves outing yourself and you never know how the person will respond. And that is assuming you know absolutely the person is trans.

And yes post-op depression doesn't always happen. I never expereinced it myself, but I know too many who have. It is very common, but post-op depression does not equate to regrets. I suppose those with regrets would have more reason to be depressed but I wouldn't lump that with "post-op depression".

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I got to admit this guy is a bit overboard in his declaration that the transition stuff should be outlawed.

As I have matured I have tended to see events like this as having some lessons to be learned. Of course he rushed into things, but, does that make him any different than others who would have had surgery in an instant if they could as Sakura has suggested? In chat I have certainly encounted several individuals who have rushed, found surgeons (at standard rates) who have been willing to perform surgery with nothing more than a simple interview.

I also have known people who have done all the work, adhered to the standards and ended up in the same place.

From what I read it wasn't till 7 years after the first transition that this person decided they made a mistake. This seems very consistant with the 5 to 10 year post-op evalatuation phase and well after the typical post-op euphoria phase.

If this person was similar to those I have known personally, I expect during this person's own transition that this person would have been very vocal about how they were a true transsexual, and would have sung the praises of HRT and of SRS. Of course I could be wrong on that equivalence. Still of the cases of those de-transitioning where I known in person, that was true however.

I certainly find myself thinking this persons assertion that SRS or however the person put it should be outlawed is unfair projection of their issues. I know SRS can be quite helpful provided one has realistic expectations and has not gotten their head full of fantasies like this individual had.

Still, on the other hand, I wonder that perhaps that the best perspective for one to judge this person would be when one has become 7 years post-op themself. I suspect how one sees things 7 years down the road is very different than one perceives things when in the middle of the changes.

Drea - when I am seven years down the road - I don't want to even start to think about AHOLES like this person! Hopefully the world will be a better place by then and gender dyshoria recognized as the condition it is - not a freeking circus some self-diagnosing people want for their own self gratification.

I know 17 post op T-Girls vey well - met them and talked in great length. The oldest post op is 36 years past, then next is my good friend who is 16 years.. I know four who are past 10 years post op. and then the 11 just under to less than a year.

Also I know eight FTM who have had top surgery - but none have opted for the bottom proceedure. They are perfectly contented other than wishing bottom surgery was better in the medical profession so they could have that done as well.

Drea - not a single one has EVER said anything about it being a mistake, and trust me, I always ask. One said she wishes her sensitivity had been better, but they didn't know how to do that back when she had the operation. I even have a good friend who only has FFS completed - says she does not want HRT or SRS - and is perfectly happy six years later.

I just don't understand how you have so many contacts where transitioning is a problem.

Lizzy

[Guest Sascha]

Great post Lizzy, it's nice to see the sheer variation in dysphoria.

[Drea]

I know 17 post op T-Girls vey well - met them and talked in great length. The oldest post op is 36 years past, then next is my good friend who is 16 years.. I know four who are past 10 years post op. and then the 11 just under to less than a year.

Also I know eight FTM who have had top surgery - but none have opted for the bottom proceedure. They are perfectly contented other than wishing bottom surgery was better in the medical profession so they could have that done as well.

Drea - not a single one has EVER said anything about it being a mistake

Of course those you met wouldn't have any major regrets about making a mistake. After all, the ones who do make a mistake aren't going to remain active in the community or will quickly be shunned. The probability of actually meeting someone 10 years post who will regret having SRS is extremely low.

The ones who do conclude they have made a mistake have filtered themselves out. One only tends to run into them at the time they come to such a conclusion assuming they don't just vanish.

[Guest HaileyR]

I love when articles are biased on the right side (my side )

[Guest Cynthia Of Creation]

Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. Kane's from Uranus, and his heads still up there.

omg im suffocating from the lauphter lol rofl! ''locks and loads shotgun'' who wants to hunt ''sugar kane'' well now i know why my mom is so sure that trans are as real as the keebler elfs and according to kane the earth is flat so avoid the edges.

[Guest Jennifer RachaelAnn]

This guy is just a desperate puke who only wants to make others as miserable as he is. It's not our fault that he's a misguided loser. We get this kind of rabble from all over the world. The only reason (which pronoun is appropriate?) this person was even noticed is because he/she is rich. It all comes down to money. I guarantee you that if some person managing a Pizza Hut went thru the exact same situation, no one would notice or care.

Jennifer RachaelAnn

[Guest Patsy]

Brenda,

You asked a few posts ago, what happened over time?

Well, we can thank the Victorian and Edwardian eras in England for most of our (western civilization) current attitudes towards sex and other bodily functions. They turned it all into bathroom humor by neatly separating love (ok) and sex (bad), and all their hang-ups are still floating around.

What is really surprising is that what happened in the 60's (Flower Power, Free love, etc) had very little lasting influence. Playboy Magazine for instance is still considered a very obscene publication by many people. The Baby Boomers are now in power more and less, and the US is more messed up than it's been in years. So much for Woodstock.

Hugs

Chloë

I am English by birth and Australian by choice, so perhaps not totally objective, but I think you need to go back a lot further than Victorian/Edwardian England to find

the source of Mainstream Anywhere's attitudes toward sex, Chloe...and perhaps a lot further east.

And as a "Baby Boomer" myself, I'll content myself with the reminder that much of what is taken for granted today, socially and legally, was won by us...usually the hard way.

As for this poor man & his sad impasse, I feel mostly concern...he has all the hallmarks of a suicide under construction.

Luv,

Patsy

[Guest Sascha]

Patsy wrote: I'll content myself with the reminder that much of what is taken for granted today, socially and legally, was won by us...usually the hard way.

I agree. I never take for granted where other trans literally died for: acceptation. We now reap those benefits, for the work they have put in before us. We're standing on their shoulders.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I agree. I never take for granted where other trans literally died for: acceptation. We now reap those benefits, for the work they have put in before us. We're standing on their shoulders.

It's not just the ones that died but the first ones who had procedures done and hormones tested to allow us to get to the state we're at today. I'm sure they never thought of it at the time and they were much like us-just doing what they had to do but there are thousands of nameless heros who have gone before us to make it easier for us.

Kim

[Guest NatalieRene]

Of course those you met wouldn't have any major regrets about making a mistake. After all, the ones who do make a mistake aren't going to remain active in the community or will quickly be shunned. The probability of actually meeting someone 10 years post who will regret having SRS is extremely low.

The ones who do conclude they have made a mistake have filtered themselves out. One only tends to run into them at the time they come to such a conclusion assuming they don't just vanish.

If that's the case how did you meet these people who where unhappy?

I've asked my therapist about the situation of regret and she hasn't had a single case of someone developing post operation depression. Those that where not suitable where filtered out along the process of being able to have srs. Some are weeded out right as the hrt letter is given. Some as they start hrt and some as they go into the rle. That is why the process is in place. It's not something designed to trick or cheat people it's meant to give a person transitioning a reality check so that they can stop if it isn't the right solution.

It seems the majority of regret is coming from self medicating people and others that bypass the standards of care. So my greatest suggestion to anyone who feels they need to transition is to absolutely go by the standards of care.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

If that's the case how did you meet these people who where unhappy?

I've asked my therapist about the situation of regret and she hasn't had a single case of someone developing post operation depression. Those that where not suitable where filtered out along the process of being able to have srs. Some are weeded out right as the hrt letter is given. Some as they start hrt and some as they go into the rle. That is why the process is in place. It's not something designed to trick or cheat people it's meant to give a person transitioning a reality check so that they can stop if it isn't the right solution.

It seems the majority of regret is coming from self medicating people and others that bypass the standards of care. So my greatest suggestion to anyone who feels they need to transition is to absolutely go by the standards of care.

Right On!!!

Brenda