So, How Accurate?

[Guest Orva26]

Well I've read over the wikipedia page on HRT for MTF a few times and I've got to say a lot of the effects it list are desirable and as a page it is put together wonderfully, listing effects alongside the hormones that they originate from. But, the nagging question is, how accurate is it? I know wikipedia should be suspect but in general for science type stuff it is surprisingly good and correct, I know, I'm a chemist. But hormones and HRT is a far cry from an area that I have confident knowledge in. If it isn't very accurate where could I find better information in a similar format?

Also from it I can get the general picture that mental changes will occur first, then the physical ones with the probably order of, genital shrinkage, skin smoothing, body hair thinning happening first with fat redistribution and breast development happening with a lag or latter on. I also know that it varies in length, similarly to non therapy induced puberty from around 4-10 years and that people in their teens and early 20's benefit the best. Right now I'm 23 and I'm not sure how quickly I'd be able to start up so I'll be mean and assume it takes me 2 full years to sort my brain out through therapy and I start at 25. Can anyone out there who started around that age give me kind of a time table? I know it might not be particularly relevant to me since we are different people but if I could get an idea of the ordering and relative time it takes that would be great. I'm particularly interested in changes to the face and chest. I'd like to know about how long it took for people to start being visually recognized as female based on their face and how long it took for breast to look natural, not grow to full size, just look natural. If you didn't start at around 25 feel free to comment too. The more I can educate myself the better I'll be off in the long run and I like input, its like data. NOM NOM NOM TASTY DATA!

Thanks,

-Orva

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

Orva.......

These questions are like asking "How long is a piece of string?"

The answers are only applicable to the person that it happened to....

For instance...

Take two 60 year natal males..

Lizzy, for one....in two years she is a doll...completely feminized!

But the other one may be on HRT for 6 years and still look very "male"...

I know girls that are 10 years in HRT and one still works as a male...

I'm 2 years in and can no longer pass as male...

Any answers that could be given are totally generalizations...

the top of a bell curve...

See, HRT is not like chemistry in general....

For instance ..in chemistry, if you mix two parts this and 3 parts that...you get the very same result every time..

With HRT...age, genetics, dose, type of HRT...so many things factor in...

So, I'd have to say that what you read on Wiki is a good generalization...

Huggs

Donna Jean

[Guest kelise]

Umm, well I started at 25, but as has been stated multiple times, I'm apparently weird. (pause for Dee Jay to come up with a comment) I did get mental changes first. Within the first few weeks I noticed changes. I developed woman's intuition (a really cool superpower), increased ability to recognize mood and emotion in what people said, Increased ability to multitask. I'd say the fat redistribution and breast growth came next, at least the first spurt of breast growth (it came in waves), within the first 3 months. Then the softening of skin and features, which was a slow and steady process, still taking place today, four years later. A friend who saw me once in Oct of '09 and then not again until Oct '10 said she couldn't believe how much my features had softened in that time.

But as you said, everyone is different. YMMV!

[Guest Lily B]

Usually the best way to determine whether what you read on wikipedia is accurate is to check the sources at the bottom of the page. Everything is supposed to, at least, to be cited.

[Guest Tiaria]

Well, assuming no vandalism has taken place (which is generally reversed very quickly) it's a safe bet that Wikipedia is about as accurate as the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. Main difference: Wikipedia uses less fancy words, so it's easier to understand for 'the lay folks'.

[Guest Orva26]

For instance ..in chemistry, if you mix two parts this and 3 parts that...you get the very same result every time..

I know what you were going for but, I WISH! As much as I loved my graduate research that would have made it absolutely divine. You need rigorously fixed conditions for that to be true which is why I've come to realize that some of my questions are folly because it cannot really get more de-regulated that the human body. Kind of silly for me to ask.

On a semi-related note I would love to learn what is going on chemically during HRT. Biochemistry isn't my strong suit but I'd probably get additional therapeutic value out of understand on a molecular level things like how anti-androgens work. Look at me be a nerd!

Any answers that could be given are totally generalizations...

the top of a bell curve...

That keeps becoming apparent to me but I keep asking. Strange I'm not usually this dense, I'll stop. It still would be nice to hear peoples' experience though. I'm guessing the only 'real' way for me to be able to guess how I would turn out is to see an endocrinologist/doctor that specializes in or at least has monitored a good amount of patients through MTF HRT. I would trust that they would have seen enough cases and would be knowledgeable enough about the blood work to give me some kind of an idea. Of course that wouldn't be 100% either though. I'd have a bunch of questions for them, probably drive them crazy.

Usually the best way to determine whether what you read on wikipedia is accurate is to check the sources at the bottom of the page. Everything is supposed to, at least, to be cited.

Very good point, I should do that when I can. If I find flaws I can report them here. I really hope there aren't many.

I do hope that I can see results faster. Not sure about 2 years, I might need more time than that to set things straight socially. But I'd at least like the softening of features mentioned by Kelise.

Thanks for the responses so far.

[Drea]

I agree with Donna, anything you get is generalizations. The link you gave is perhaps as good as any as far as that goes.

I see people asking about hormones regularly. Beyond those generalizations and understanding what the risks are, I am not sure how much you can figure out as to what is likely to happen when you take them.

I'm guessing the only 'real' way for me to be able to guess how I would turn out is to see an endocrinologist/doctor that specializes in or at least has monitored a good amount of patients through MTF HRT. I would trust that they would have seen enough cases and would be knowledgeable enough about the blood work to give me some kind of an idea.

I think you will find the body is not so precise or well understood that an endo could predict your personal results any better than you could by looking at close female relitives and assuming you get half to 2/3 what they had. might get half what they got.

I guess such speculation is nice. Its like a little kid a few days before christmas wondering what Santa might bring.

Most who go on hormones are dealing with gender issues that cause them enough personal distress that they have entered into treatment for starting with therapy. While understanding the effects is part of the decision process, ultimatly one takes them as part of treatment and the effects for that individual end up being whatever they are. Many do find hormones and the effects they get (in addition to the therapy they had) provide sufficient relief. Others of course proceed further down the path towards transition or do transition fully.

I guess what I am saying is, if you haven't gotten into treatment, with a therapist, the speculation can be a case of putting the cart before the horse.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

You never know.

I started at age 61 and totally feminized in two years - but my therapists and my prescribing physician said something else was going on. My dosage was low - still is.

You CANNOT depend on what the literature says, you cannot depend on what the internet says. Your Miliage May Vary - that is all you can depend on.

BUT

All of my MTF friends whom I have met in person, ALL had good fascial softening. I think that is almost a given result. Of course you may start looking like Jaba the Hut and end up looking like a softer faced Jaba the Hut... not a Natalie Porter.

HRT is an option or transitioning. You must decide if it is an option based on the assumption you will feminize, not a decision based upon a timeline.

My opinion...

Lizzy

[Guest Orva26]

I guess what I am saying is, if you haven't gotten into treatment, with a therapist, the speculation can be a case of putting the cart before the horse.

Yeah, um... I tend to do that a lot. I do agree though. As much as I want some of the changes from the hormones there are others I'm not to sure of, and even if I was sure of everything I should still see a therapist first. I'm sorry if I'm annoying anybody with my presumptuousness.

I guess such speculation is nice. Its like a little kid a few days before christmas wondering what Santa might bring.

That's a pretty apt description. But it leaves out the fear of that one gift. You know the one wrapped super fancy like but when you open it there's socks inside. But if I do look at my female relatives, which is quite difficult because most of them live far away, I think I'll be okay.

I started at age 61 and totally feminized in two years

I've got to say, they did a good job. You're quite the distinguished lady.

HRT is an option or transitioning. You must decide if it is an option based on the assumption you will feminize, not a decision based upon a timeline.

IDK, I find time lines important, its just how my brain works. But as nice as they are I'm not going to get one for this. Certainty I agree that it shouldn't be the paramount concern but if I could know I could plan and it would bring a small degree of predictability to this black box senerio. Meh, it seems that reading mostly anything about hormones will only serve to be food for thought for my wishful thinking. Like this:

All of my MTF friends whom I have met in person, ALL had good fascial softening. I think that is almost a given result. Of course you may start looking like Jaba the Hut and end up looking like a softer faced Jaba the Hut... not a Natalie Porter.

DOUBLE YAY! That might seem confusing but since I don't look like Jaba the hut it isn't really. Even though I'm a guy who is sort of in a limbo with gender identity I must admit that I'm not terrible looking as a guy. So the Jaba the hut thing has got me thinking moderately good looking fella ends up looking like moderately good looking girl. I'm gonna let my brain latch onto that thought for a little bit since its a nice one.

But I think I'm going to really try to shift focus from black box things to things I can know. Like learning more about the SoC; I've read it a few times but its a good thing to be up on. And learning about the legal stuff I might have to deal with. I actually have a pdf from a transgender support group in the state I'll be moving to. Its a few years old but it should still be mostly relevant. That's probably a much more constructive thing for me to do and it'll serve the dual purpose of forcing me to think of something other than my own confusion, which is evolving into something a kin to a constant nagging. Now I just need to work up the will to do it, legal mumbo jumbo makes me all, @_@

[Guest BeckyTG]

I did a lot of the same research you did. I also wanted to know as much as I could first.

I started after age 60 and felt changes in my breasts almost immediately. Within a few months, my pelvis had rotated forward and my hips began to develop.

Within 60 days, all the anxiety and mental anguish I'd had all my life vanished--gone, as if by magic. Those around me on a daily basis noticed how relaxed I was and how I was always in a great mood.

My skin began to soften. As time has gone on, the body hair has been diminishing and turning into vellous baby hair. I'm at the one year mark and my Dr. asked me last week if I'd had electrolysis on my stomach. I was a hairy beast all over. I told her nope, that's all the work of the Estrogen. Yaaay!

My experience is that the information you cited has been pretty much all true for me. In the last 2 months, I suddenly have a nice girlie bottom and a figure! I can feel the parts of my body develop when they are doing so. I can tell where I'm active.

I have to explain to others that this process will go on for years. Think of the age where all little girls and boys could run through the lawn sprinkler together on a hot Summer day with no tops on and it was all innocent. At some point, the girls needed tops and from that time until they were fully adult females was quite a few years. We'll be no different, it's all the same process.

I took photos from the same place and the same angles from the beginning so I could see my progress. I also took a full set of measurements for the same reason. The photos really tell a story, the measurements really fool you. The chest isn't much different, but the loss of a lot of muscle mass was equally offset by the development of female tissue, so the measurement doesn't show it. The legs and arms are a different story.

I hope this is helpful to you. Like it was in the beginning of our lives, we couldn't choose what sort of boys we'd become--how tall, how large, how skinny or how wide. We also can't choose how we'll develop as females. We just get what we get and do the best we can with that.

Becky

[Guest Orva26]

Thanks Becky, your post was quite informative. You have had great results within one year and I hope I would see the same. All of the hormone changes seems wonderful, well maybe not the pelvis moving that sounds like it could hurt, but overall I am finding the option attractive. As attractive as they are I cannot let the idea bind me... I mean if I show up to therapy gunning to get on hormones it'll probably happen but I need to keep an open mind.

[Guest N. Jane]

I started some erratic DIY hormones about 14 (whenever I could steal them!) and had trouble hiding my breasts by 16. I started HRT (officially) at 17 when I found a kindly doctor who was concerned about my DIY but they didn't have blockers then. I had SRS at 24, as soon as it became available.

Also from it I can get the general picture that mental changes will occur first...

That is probably true. Prior to HRT I think I was (realistically) "between worlds" but by 19 I couldn't pass for a guy no matter how I was dressed.

...then the physical ones with the probably order of, genital shrinkage, skin smoothing, body hair thinning happening first with fat redistribution

My 'boy bits' never developed very much so I can't say. Skin definitely improved within a few years of HRT but body hair didn't change much until after SRS (and the removal of nasty T) - then it completely went away. I don't know about fat redistribution - all I can say is that I became my mother - almost an exact copy - so I guess that is in the genes.

... breast development happening with a lag or latter on.

That was a little strange for me. I reached a B cup by 19 and that didn't change much until my late 20's. I had BA at 27 and went to a C cup but then through my 30's that increased to a D (which is where I am still at age 60).

There is so much genetics involved in feminization that I don't think anyone can predict how things will turn out but the sooner you can bring your hormones levels into the proper range, the better the results will be.

[Guest NotClaire]

I started 10 months ago when I was 20 after 3 months of therapy. Mental changes were definitely first.. became much more emotional and confident. After about 2 months parts of my body started looking "off"... couldn't put a finger on it - they just looked different. Softer I guess? Breasts became pretty sore by this point, too. By 4 months there were noticeable changes in my face/skin and breasts were noticeable if I wasn't wearing a loose t-shirt. By 8 months I was passing as female even when I was presenting as a male ...and now it's just better and better every day. The thing about hormones is that it's not just a 2 year wait and then you're suddenly a girl. The effects are immediate... the length of time "required" is entirely in the eye of the beholder in my opinion.

Irreversible changes

• breast development, - TRUE (started ~1-2 months)
  
• enlarged nipples and areolae - TRUE (noticeable around 6 months)
  
• stretch marks (for some) - not for me
  

Reversible changes

• decreased libido, - TRUE (pretty much immediately)
  
• redistribution of body fat, - TRUE (pants became tighter at same weight by 3 months)
  
• reduced muscle development, - TRUE (much harder to lift things by 5 months)
  
• various skin changes, - TRUE (started ~1 month)
  
• significantly reduced body hair - TRUE (more noticeable every day - leg shaves last longer for sure)
  
• change in body odor and sweat production, - TRUE (maybe? hard to tell)
  
• less prominence of veins, - FALSE (for me at least)
  
• ocular changes, - MAYBE (have noticed better color differentiation)
  
• gonadal size - TRUE (by 4 monthsish)
  

Umm... some other random stuff: smells smell different and my music preference has slightly changed...

Some random stuff that probably have nothing to do with hormones: I used to have horrible headaches/migraines and those are gone. Also, I used to be pretty much asexual and not attracted to anyone and after a short time taking HRT and presenting more and more as a female I became more attracted to men.

Uhh... yeah! Hope I helped

peace & love

[Guest Orva26]

The thing about hormones is that it's not just a 2 year wait and then you're suddenly a girl. The effects are immediate... the length of time "required" is entirely in the eye of the beholder in my opinion.

Immediate effects you say? That is good to know. It seems like I can expect at least a month before irreversible changes start. I know I might end up with a completely different timescale but I'll need to consider that because how quickly HRT fires up regulates how quickly things like coming out will have to happen for me. I want to avoid things like, "Hey I haven't seen you in half a year! WOAH! Why you a girl now? " because that would probably be far more awkward than telling people.

Umm... some other random stuff: smells smell different and my music preference has slightly changed...

My musical taste has been expanding to include new things, returning to old things, all while not abandoning the current trends. I don't really know how much of it has to do with my feelings on gender but it did start around the same time that I began putting intensive thought into the subject.

The smelling thing sounds nice. Not sure how much I'll notice it though the chemistry has effected it. Long story short, when your ventilation system seems working, it might now be and then good people breath hydrochloric acid vapor and it isn't fun. Nothing too bad just permanently dulled my already weak sense of smell.

Some random stuff that probably have nothing to do with hormones: I used to have horrible headaches/migraines and those are gone. Also, I used to be pretty much asexual and not attracted to anyone and after a short time taking HRT and presenting more and more as a female I became more attracted to men.

This is something that I will have to think about. I'm not even sure how to describe my sexuality up to now. Its been laced with autogynophilia but when I did have a girlfriend it really wasn't like that and was basically typically male. But now I think I must have broken down some barriers, I say some because I have yet to find a man attractive in person. Pictures are another story.

Uhh... yeah! Hope I helped

Immensely! <3

One point of confusion though. I thought the atrophy caused by the hormones was irreversible, but that's not a big deal.

Thanks,

-Orva