Crazy Question On Mtf Surgery

[Guest Sandra]

While a part of me will be relieved when/if my male genitals are gone, another part is a little worried about losing it. One of the reasons is the concern that for some transsexuals, their neovagina shrinks and disappears even with regular dilation, so in the end they're left with no sex organ. There is also an issue of loss of sensation, sex drive and inability to orgasm post-op.

Now I'm wondering if its possible to keep the male genitalia but have a vagina created also. I guess that would technically make one a hermaphrodite, but it's an insurance against being left with nothing post-surgery. Perhaps there may be the option to completely remove the penis/testicles later on, when the vagina proves viable.

Based on the anatomical picture below, it seems quite possible to create the vagina without having it interfere with the male parts. That is, it doesn't appear to be a requirement to remove the penis in order to make room for the vagina, so in a sense you can get the best of both worlds.

http://www.carlaantonelli.com/neovagina.jpg

I know I should probably be asking a surgeon about this, but there seems to be some bright/knowledgeable people here so I thought I'd pose it to you guys first. Incidentally I have no intention of getting a colon based vagina after having read up on it.

There is another reason for keeping the penis: competition for men. A post-op transsexual has to compete with genetic females on the same level. Pre-ops having that "something extra" can be a real draw for males. Basically it gives you an edge in attracting who you want. Obviously this is not a consideration for the transwoman who wants to be completely female.

[Guest Silver]

the only problem i see for that is that most surgeries peformed for SRS (mtf) involve inverting the penis. It may be possible, though.

[Guest Sandra]

the only problem i see for that is that most surgeries peformed for SRS (mtf) involve inverting the penis. It may be possible, though.

Good point, I should've added that sometimes surgeons use a skin graft from the abdomen or thigh when there's not enough material from the penis/scrotum to create the vagina. So this method would a way to retain the existing male genitals, the only concern would be if the graft is rejected by the body.

[Guest Leah1026]

While a part of me will be relieved when/if my male genitals are gone, another part is a little worried about losing it. One of the reasons is the concern that for some transsexuals, their neovagina shrinks and disappears even with regular dilation, so in the end they're left with no sex organ. There is also an issue of loss of sensation, sex drive and inability to orgasm post-op.

Now I'm wondering if its possible to keep the male genitalia but have a vagina created also. I guess that would technically make one a hermaphrodite, but it's an insurance against being left with nothing post-surgery. Perhaps there may be the option to completely remove the penis/testicles later on, when the vagina proves viable.

Based on the anatomical picture below, it seems quite possible to create the vagina without having it interfere with the male parts. That is, it doesn't appear to be a requirement to remove the penis in order to make room for the vagina, so in a sense you can get the best of both worlds.

http://www.carlaantonelli.com/neovagina.jpg

I know I should probably be asking a surgeon about this, but there seems to be some bright/knowledgeable people here so I thought I'd pose it to you guys first. Incidentally I have no intention of getting a colon based vagina after having read up on it.

There is another reason for keeping the penis: competition for men. A post-op transsexual has to compete with genetic females on the same level. Pre-ops having that "something extra" can be a real draw for males. Basically it gives you an edge in attracting who you want. Obviously this is not a consideration for the transwoman who wants to be completely female.

:excl: :excl:

I'm going to be honest, this post creeps me out a bit.

First of all vaginas do NOT close up by themselves. Anybody who tells you that is lying. The only reason they close up is from lack of dilation. Dilation is very important in the first year. Unforunately some girls slack off on their dilation regimen and they pay the cost with a loss of depth. And even if the vagina was to close up you still have your clitoris. Which is where the majority of yummy feelings come from anyways.

Next, I going to be blunt: A woman doesn't have a penis. Being rid of it brought me a lot of peace of mind. Having mixed body parts pre-operatively used to really bug me. Using the bathroom and showering were constant remininder of my status.

One big problem you will have is finding any surgeon who will do what you want. Sure you may eventually find someone, but will you trust just anyone?

You are worried about a loss of function. Two things:

1. Surgical results, especially if you go to one of the major docs, are very good these days. Part of the glans will become you clitoris. The surgeon will endeavor to keep all the nerves intact.

2. I would still had surgery even if I knew their would be loss of function. The only solution to my body dysmorphic feelings was for it to be gone. I can tell you that after surgery those feelings are GONE and my body looks and feels right now.

You speak of men who like "something extra". Guys like that are creepy fetishists. Do you really want to be objectified in that way?

My advice to you is to NOT have surgery. To me you sound transgender, not transsexual, and would probably have major regrets after surgery. This is not a decision to be taken lightly. If you are unsure DON'T do it.

p.s. Also the language you use is also very telling:

"neovagina"- Just say vagina!

"hermophrodite"- That's an obsolete term that intersex people consider very derogatory.

"transsexuals"- I am not a "transsexual" (noun), I'm a woman with a transsexual (adjective) medical history.

[Guest Sandra]

:excl: :excl:

A. I'm going to be honest, this post creeps me out a bit.

B. First of all vaginas do NOT close up by themselves. Anybody who tells you that is lying. The only reason they close up is from lack of dilation. Dilation is very important in the first year. Unforunately some girls slack off on their dilation regimen and they pay the cost with a loss of depth. And even if the vagina was to close up you still have your clitoris. Which is where the majority of yummy feelings come from anyways.

C. Next, I going to be blunt: A woman doesn't have a penis. Being rid of it brought me a lot of peace of mind. Having mixed body parts pre-operatively used to really bug me. Using the bathroom and showering were constant remininder of my status.

One big problem you will have is finding any surgeon who will do what you want. Sure you may eventually find someone, but will you trust just anyone?

D. You are worried about a loss of function. Two things:

1. Surgical results, especially if you go to one of the major docs, are very good these days. Part of the glans will become you clitoris. The surgeon will endeavor to keep all the nerves intact.

2. I would still had surgery even if I knew their would be loss of function. The only solution to my body dysmorphic feelings was for it to be gone. I can tell you that after surgery those feelings are GONE and my body looks and feels right now.

E. You speak of men who like "something extra". Guys like that are creepy fetishists. Do you really want to be objectified in that way?

F. My advice to you is to NOT have surgery. To me you sound transgender, not transsexual, and would probably have major regrets after surgery. This is not a decision to be taken lightly. If you are unsure DON'T do it.

p.s. Also the language you use is also very telling:

"neovagina"- Just say vagina!

"hermophrodite"- That's an obsolete term that intersex people consider very derogatory.

"transsexuals"- I am not a "transsexual" (noun), I'm a woman with a transsexual (adjective) medical history.

A. I did preface the topic with the words "crazy question", you didn't need to respond if it bothered you. Remember the forum rule, there's no such thing as a 'dumb question'. I found some of your remarks to be condescending and judgmental which is unwarranted and not appreciated in a forum like this whose purpose is a free exchange of ideas without demeaning others.

B. If you read more carefully you'd note that I stated from what I read, that some transsexuals vaginas shrink even with regular dilation. While having the clitoris is fine, the point of SRS is to have a vagina that can be used as one, not to become a eunuch-hence my thread.

C. Understandable, but you realize there are many transsexuals who don't have SRS and are quite content having a penis, the pejorative term is crossdresser, but I'd still consider them women because that's who they are inside. Also note that the intensity of transsexual feelings is on a sliding scale, its not binary.

On the Cogiati I scored in the 'probable transsexual' range (I think you saw that thread)-where most of us fall into, few are in the 'definite transsexual' category. But obviously what matters is how you feel ultimately inside.

D2. I'm happy for you that surgery has made you feel whole, that's the best one can expect.

E. I think you got a bit carried away here. So if a man happens to be attracted to a woman with a penis he must be a perverted 'creepy fetishist' right? That's an insult to both transwomen and those who love them. While certainly for some men it is a fetish, others would be perfectly happy building a loving, respecting relationship with one, it'd be wrong and unfair to assume otherwise.

I realize now that you've bought into society's gender norms that only males and females are valid genders, which is why the idea of being an intersexual disturbs you. For some transsexuals being a pre-op is a goal and they're perfectly fine not getting SRS, I see nothing wrong with that.

F. I did not ask for your advice on my having SRS and its very presumptuous of you to pretend to know my sexuality based on a question I raised here. It is offense to suggest you know someone's sexuality better than they know themselves. This is not a decision I made overnight for kicks, its been on my mind for many years.

Additionally, don't tell me what words I should use, I chose them specifically to get my point across.

I said neovagina because that's exactly what I meant, the newly formed vagina...elsewhere I just used vagina if you noticed.

'hermaproditism' exists in nature and I didn't use it in any derogatory sense, again you need to stop nitpicking people's use of terminology when they know what they're talking about. These words can only be offensive if and when the intent to be so is there (which its not).

There's no escaping the word transsexual because that's what we are when we change sex/gender. Obviously you are a woman inside out, but if one chooses not to go stealth, then one would always self-identity as a transsexual woman, transwoman or whatever term one is comfortable with.

While I appreciate your thoughts and knowledge I can do without the dictation and passing judgment. If you can't avoid that then please skip over my threads.

[Guest Keiichi-kun]

WEll first off I'm gonna say you do what makes you happy I bet it will be hard to find a surgeon to do that though and also skin grafts can creat some pretty ugly scars. Well anyways I don't know too much about this subject but I hope you can.

Also a little side not humans can't technically be hermamphrodites because hermamphrodites are creatures that produce both sperm and egg not creatures that have both body parts

[Guest Sandra]

WEll first off I'm gonna say you do what makes you happy I bet it will be hard to find a surgeon to do that though and also skin grafts can creat some pretty ugly scars. Well anyways I don't know too much about this subject but I hope you can.

Also a little side not humans can't technically be hermamphrodites because hermamphrodites are creatures that produce both sperm and egg not creatures that have both body parts

Thanks to be quite honest my original intent has always been to become a female (getting SRS) until I thought about the risks but also the possibilities, what would be wrong about having both sex organs? Though of course the idea weirds people out (as much as transsexualism does/did).

But I see humans purely as biological organisms, no different than any other so there's nothing I consider taboo or too strange to consider. I believe those attitudes of revulsion to our natural biology derive from religion.

I think you're right-I doubt there'd be many surgeons who'd do something as unusual as this, still its interesting to think about.

While I don't profess to know a lot about intersexuals/hermaphrodites, don't some of them have fully functioning sex organs that produce sperm/eggs? I've heard it may be possible for them to impregnate themselves. *shrugs*

[Guest Snow Angel]

Being able to impregnate yourself would be awful. Imagine being happy with yourself and having 5 kids. Then one day, you get upset with yourself and stop talking to yourself. You eventually drift apart. Then you have to pay to yourself your own child support since the relationship is over.

[Guest Sandra]

Being able to impregnate yourself would be awful. Imagine being happy with yourself and having 5 kids. Then one day, you get upset with yourself and stop talking to yourself. You eventually drift apart. Then you have to pay to yourself your own child support since the relationship is over.

Lol and when you grow apart you refuse to touch yourself anymore and wish things could've been happy like they used to be? And you realize you can't live with or without yourself?

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Sarah,

Umm, I’m not too sure what the system is like in Canada when it comes to legal recognition of ones gender after surgery…But your post got me thinking …if you kept your penis ‘externally’ after they have created a neo vagina what would your official gender status be?

Remember most countries[including Canada] will not issues a new 'altered' birth certificate unless one has proof of GAS [gender ‘affirming’ surgery]…In the UK it’s different, since 2004 one can be fully recognised as their affirmed gender even without surgery… The gender recognition panel just needs to see a psychiatric report and a signed affidavit stating that you have already been living in your affirmed gender for a minimum of two years and on HRT and that you will continue to live in your affirmed gender for the rest of your life …If you had that type of surgery, your gender status would be in limbo… food for thought Sarah…

It’s funny when I decided to go 24/7 [in 2000/1-I had my surgery in 2005-government funded-colonvaginaplasty] I had not given surgery any serious thought…I remember the first gender identity specialist [psychiatrist] I saw mentioned surgery and I told him I hadn’t given it much thought… My overwhelming desire was to ‘live’ the rest of my life as my correct gender, surgery for me was not the be all and end all…

Society already saw and treated me as a female they had no idea what was between my legs…Only my doctor and a few close friends knew my-by then ‘very’ little secret-your genitalia shrinks when on HRT, society just took how I presented to them for granted and a vagina was part and parcel of being the female that they perceived me to be.

Sarah once HRT kicks in your whole outlook might change… not only will your penis and testicles shrink -possibly your sex drive will plummet too…you might also begin the rollercoaster ride of emotional ups and downs…Umm “Let the mind games begin!”…

Whatever you decide Sarah, I hope you make the right choice when it comes to surgery… Even though I was close to my buddy ie, you could say we were attached - he used to hang around all the time…I don’t miss his company…

Metta Jendar

[Guest Sandra]

Whatever you decide Sarah, I hope you make the right choice when it comes to surgery…

Thanks for your thoughtful post Jendar. <3 I agree once I'm on hormones my mentality might change completely and you make a great point, when you've transitioned and people treat you as a woman you're the right gender, even if you still happen to have male genitals.

[Guest Storm Angel]

I for one will be soo happy to become a post-op girl!

I've never enjoyed sex or liked male function, I've tried to trick myself into believing I do but it doesn't work, looking at what is 'down stairs' is very depressing and my only escape from this is when I'm alone and use my sub-concious creativity to imagine myself experiencing an intimate moment genitally corrected.

I honestly have no fear of SRS, what I feel and find arousing is something within, it's not the genital feeling I enjoy but more of a heart felt feeling that gives me 'butterfies' and wierd but wonderful 'waves' of energy that surge through me, triggering much emotion where I start to cry with happiness.. it is really hard to explain this in words but it feels absolutely wonderful!

I can't wait to experience and share this with somethone in the real world!

I hope I didn't share too much info.

xo

[Guest Storm Angel]

I can't wait to experience and share this with somethone in the real world!

"Someone".. typographic error.. my bad

[Guest Sandra]

I for one will be soo happy to become a post-op girl!

I've never enjoyed sex or liked male function, I've tried to trick myself into believing I do but it doesn't work, looking at what is 'down stairs' is very depressing and my only escape from this is when I'm alone and use my sub-concious creativity to imagine myself experiencing an intimate moment genitally corrected.

I honestly have no fear of SRS, what I feel and find arousing is something within, it's not the genital feeling I enjoy but more of a heart felt feeling that gives me 'butterfies' and wierd but wonderful 'waves' of energy that surge through me, triggering much emotion where I start to cry with happiness.. it is really hard to explain this in words but it feels absolutely wonderful!

I can't wait to experience and share this with somethone in the real world!

I hope I didn't share too much info.

xo

You touched on something that I'd really like to reply in sexually explicit terms but I don't want to give the mods any headaches, so I'll try to make it as PC as possible. I know where you're coming from, in my intimate relations with men I never cared if I derived any pleasure from my manhood. In fact ignoring 'it' just made me enjoy the lovemaking even more because I derived a lot of pleasure from everything else they'd do, without getting into details. It didn't occur to me initially but I eventually realized that I've always been making love to them as a woman already.

So I know if/when I get SRS, I won't ever miss my male genitalia in fact I think I'll enjoy it much more because I'll be my real female self. About the only reason I'd want to hang on to my man-thing is to use it with men/women who'd really want me to have it and also cause it gives me a novelty factor. I know that doesn't sit well with the more staunch transsexuals here, but to each her own.

xo

[Guest Sheila]

after all of the reaserching i've done i've found nothing on this sort of sugery. i myself can't wait to have srs. it's been my lifelong dream. i'm a little envious of the girl's who have already had their srs. in a good way though. i rejoice them for their good fortune. i'm not into sex myself, although i'm strongly attracted to women. i have mixed feeling about sex and avoid it at all cost. at this time i find men, sort of revolting. no harm ment, guy's. but that's how i feel. maybe when i start hrt and have srs my feeling's will change. i wouldn't have a problem being a strsight woman. this might sound a little strange but i'm almost looking forward to dilating. i'm hoping this process will help me explore my new female sex organ and see what it can do for me. i've read quite a few followup reports were the woman are, for the majority any way, very satisfied. i'm not too worried about this aspect though. just give me a vagina and i'll deal with the other issue's as they come. i can live life without sex. i'm doing it now. all i know is, i need the cure. i need the cure to function. i'm being tramatized by this mostrocity between my legs everyday i go without the cure. well, i hope you find what you're looking for. good luck.

[Sally]

I'm not going to pass any judgements or make any recomendations, that's not my place, but if you are worried about a lack of sensation in your vagina post-op - making it without using the penis is a sure way to garauntee no sensation. Skin grafts from the thigh or stomach lack a sufficient number of nerves in the first place and nerves don't graft like skin does - that's why they use the penis - they don't sever the nerves and they allow post-op sensation. As you should know from any research that you have done - male sex organs (intact - before surgery) have less than half of the nerves present in the female vigina, to my way of thinking half is a whole lot better than none.

Do your research, search your own mind and heart and do what you feel is best for you.

Be happy,

Sally