Vocal Dysphoria And Testosterone

[Guest Exeter]

I find that the one thing that bothers me most (other than my chest, which can be remedied more easily) is my voice. Sure, I can try my best to train it better and eventually get testosterone, but that doesn't necessarily guaruntee that all of the dysphoria I feel will be gone. I'm someone who greatly values the idea of having a mature male voice... especially the ability to sing. Unfortunately, as things stand I don't do any form of vocal training and I've never really sung. I'm already shy and ridiculously timid, but the real reason is because the mere thought of using 'this' voice and sounding like a girl is horrifying to me.

I'm just afraid that because of my genes, lack of any training and the age I'd likely be receiving T -- which may very well be in my early twenties or mid twenties -- that I've little chance of having a remotely decent voice, let alone one for singing. Does the age of recieving T influence the outcome of your voice? Like if one receives it during, versus post puberty? I have a sad feeling that it does... and that I'm doomed, right?

This scares me and makes me feel very depressed because I'm someone who enjoys music a lot. Sure, I've never been the 'vocalist' type... more a quiet keyboardist. But if I had a male voice, singing wouldn't be so frightening for me and I constantly envy lots of men for that very reason. I feel forced to be overly quiet and timid because I can't express myself the way I want to.

I have actually been brought to tears sometimes (even before I knew I was trans) just listening to male artists sing and knowing that I will never be able to sound like them; knowing that I've got a 'female' voice. It's only become worse lately.

I apologise for ranting and I'm sure I'm pathetic, but I just needed to get this out somehow...

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Wanna trade voices? DANG!

Me too...

Lizzy

[Guest ShortyT]

Dunno how old you are, but I started T at 33, and voice has dropped quite a bit in 21 weeks. I started on gel and will be switching to shots soon, and a few others who did the same experienced a lot more changes after starting on shots. As for singing, I do that a lot through work (but not professionally... as in, I don't have to sing well ). My voice has times where it just goes "sod it, I dun wanna!" and at other times it carries the tunes fairly well, nice and deep. I was singing through a tune with a co-worker the other day, she stopped in the middle and went "holy crap listen how deep your voice is!" XD It's not really that deep yet, but the change for me is significant.

[Flint]

I find that the one thing that bothers me most (other than my chest, which can be remedied more easily) is my voice. Sure, I can try my best to train it better and eventually get testosterone, but that doesn't necessarily guaruntee that all of the dysphoria I feel will be gone. I'm someone who greatly values the idea of having a mature male voice... especially the ability to sing. Unfortunately, as things stand I don't do any form of vocal training and I've never really sung. I'm already shy and ridiculously timid, but the real reason is because the mere thought of using 'this' voice and sounding like a girl is horrifying to me.

I'm just afraid that because of my genes, lack of any training and the age I'd likely be receiving T -- which may very well be in my early twenties or mid twenties -- that I've little chance of having a remotely decent voice, let alone one for singing. Does the age of recieving T influence the outcome of your voice? Like if one receives it during, versus post puberty? I have a sad feeling that it does... and that I'm doomed, right?

This scares me and makes me feel very depressed because I'm someone who enjoys music a lot. Sure, I've never been the 'vocalist' type... more a quiet keyboardist. But if I had a male voice, singing wouldn't be so frightening for me and I constantly envy lots of men for that very reason. I feel forced to be overly quiet and timid because I can't express myself the way I want to.

I have actually been brought to tears sometimes (even before I knew I was trans) just listening to male artists sing and knowing that I will never be able to sound like them; knowing that I've got a 'female' voice. It's only become worse lately.

I apologise for ranting and I'm sure I'm pathetic, but I just needed to get this out somehow...

If I could sing, I'd love to be able to sing. Because I write my lyrics and I'd love to be able to sing them.

But like you I'm shy in real life. some may find that hard to believe but I am shy in real life.

I'm a very quiet man these days. But it seems that is in my nature, I don't like loudness for it depletes my peace of mind. However sometimes I feel myself wanting to say something to someone, but just can't find it in myself to say the words because of my voice. I hate my voice very much. I can manage to somewhat deepen my voice for one word. So I can say as much as "Cheers" or "thanks" when a waiter brings me my drink or something. But I can't say anything else if I wanted to because I fear the sound of my voice! I can relate to you on this. And I too with the pace of transition I'm in worry that my voice will never deepen enough and be somewhat squeaky sounding with a deeper overtone to what I have now. I'm unsure how to explain in writing, but yea. That is something I would dislike very much, perhaps go as far as to say HATE.

It'll be interesting to see what people say regarding the T and deeper voices and age thing.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Then FTM that I work with, those on T for a year or longer, are really getting a definate male voice. I think that is one of the greatest differences between MTF and FTM. We don't get a feminine voice with HRT.

Just mussing

Lizzy

[Guest Chiv]

I too yearn for that deep voice. Chest and voice are what prevent me from passing all the time. I know that the changes and how T affects each one of us is different. I am happy with the progress I have seen in 4 months and my voice is "hoarse" but not sure if it is the T.

[Guest ShortyT]

I experienced (and still do) a lot of hoarseness after starting T.

Of course, it didn't help that a few months into T I had to start taking astma meds that could also cause hoarseness, so right now I don't know for sure which is which.

[Guest My_Genesis]

I've never heard of the age at which you start T having any influence on how deep your voice gets. From what I've seen, it goes into the adult male range regardless of age. The male range has a lot of variance though. How deep your voice gets really is a case-by-case thing and depends on your genetics and all that. But your voice isn't going to sound "not male" if you start in your early 20s. There are plenty of guys who start in their 20s and later and their voices aren't distinguishable from a bio-guy's.

I get you on the voice dysphoria. I can't wait for my voice to change completely. I often don't like to talk to people just because I can't stand to hear the way I sound, and to think that they are hearing it too. I also am a terrible singer but I want to learn to sing after my voice deepens because right now it's kind of too high for a male part and too low for a female part which is probably why I suck I have a lot of dysphoria about not being able to hit low notes in songs that males sing. I usually end up testing myself to see how deep I can go and then get all bummed out when I can't hit the lower notes. I have been on T for... 11 days now. A few days ago I felt like my voice was changing a little, it felt raspy and it seemed I could go a bit lower and could feel it in the area behind my nose, almost like when you have laryngitis. Now I'm not sure if I have gotten used to it or if it went away and it was something else, like just being hoarse, because I always have issues with post-nasal drip and have to constantly clear my throat anyway (TMI, I know ) So today and yesterday I have been obsessing over it, "did my voice really change or is it all in my head? is it just as high as it was pre-T?" I guess in the next few days I'll see what happens. But I am almost 21 and I'm not concerned with how deep my voice is going to get. As long as I sound like a guy, that's all that matters. I wouldn't worry about it too much. T physically changes your vocal cords.

[Guest Chiv]

I am having that "laryngitis" sounding voice right now and I will take that over my regular voice. Like you, I don't like the way my voice soundsto me and recording any voicemail is a challenge. Am more conscious of how I sound to others sometimes. I used to sing in a choir for women, could sing soprano 2 or alto 1. The other day someone I just met thought I was a tenor and wanted me to join his choir. I was so thrilled that he thought I was a guy, how I sounded didn't matter.

It is nice to be able to share these things here because my friends are very kind but sometimes I feel guilty sharing every detail of my transition. Well, I may start feeling that here too Funny thing is that in these forums age doesn't seem to matter to me, I just see the person.

[Guest Liam]

Singing is something that is really important to me, and has been something I've paid a lot of attention to since starting T. I'm 21 and close to 3 months on T, and I'm optimistic for the future of my voice. Right now it doesn't sound all that pretty, but I'm reasonably certain that, as soon as it stops actively changing, I'll be able to harness it and sing well again. But then again, I have sung in choirs for 14 years, and have been working on training my voice for quite a while now, so I think that helps. Regardless, I don't think there's any reason to believe that you'll necessarily not be able to sing well after being on T. Singing takes practice, and most people can sing at least decently if they give it the right amount of practice. I see no reason why that shouldn't apply to trans men who transition as adults, either.

I've found these two websites fairly helpful. The first one is a research study done by a trans man, and he recommends starting off on a low dose of T and very slowly increasing to a full dose for best vocal results. The second one is just more of an explanation of what happens to the larynx once testosterone is introduced. It also provides some recommendations for trans male singers.

http://www.radical-musicology.org.uk/2008/Constansis.htm

http://transguys.com/features/testosterone-ftm-singing

[Guest harvester52]

Being a transman and a singer has its ups and downs. Before I started T, I was a natural tenor. I could pass OK on the phone, but still occasionally got ma'amed. I've been on T almost a year now. I am a full bass-baritone, and haven't been ma'amed in months. I can sing fairly well, and haven't had much of the hoarseness that a lot of people report. I sing songs such as "Daddy Sang Bass" by Johnny Cash and "Hellfire" from the Hunchback of Notre Dame movie, both well in the bass range with no difficulties. T really does work miracles with the voice. That said, I also trained my voice from a very young age (about 13, didn't start T until I was 20). I had a very high voice as a young child, but in middle school, wanted to sing with the boys in the school choir. My music teacher taught me some techniques that would help lower my voice. I worked at it for years before I built up the tenor range. I was a solid alto before that. As many have said before, your mileage may very with HRT. I've been blessed to get a very deep, natural male voice, but then I've seen some transmen with higher voices, i.e. Loren Cameron. I would recommend working on it. Voice training doesn't need to be done with people around. I trained my voice in the privacy of my bedroom. One thing that really helped me was to listen to my voice on recording. Once you get used to hearing yourself, it's very beneficial.

-BC

[Guest Crossroads]

I started Testosterone at 23, and my voice dropped plenty. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jdxad

I'll be making a video at 2 years in April, but my voice has dropped a little still since my last video.

Not to mention, puberty goes on for longer than just what people think. You'll still be growing and changing until your mid-twenties.

I had a lot of issues with the voice change because I had a very well trained female voice that could go from soprano down to tenor. After almost 2 years of adjusting, I'm finally getting used to singing again, and trying desperately to get a vocal range. It takes a lot of work though. A voice trainer can help, or you can look up some things online. There's a few good videos from transoutlaw about his vocal changing: http://www.youtube.com/user/transoutlaw

Additionally, each person's voice will change based on their genetics. No one can promise you that your voice will drop X or Y amount. But you should be fine just by looking around at your family (brothers if you have any).

[Remus]

At our school one of the choirs was a boys' ensemble, and my parents always laughed at me when I said how much I wanted to be part of it. And I really, really did. No, although I was always in choir, and despite sometimes filling in for the soprano 1s, I generally insisted on being alto 2 or tenor (didn't get to tenor very often, but I always had trouble hiding how ecstatic I was when I did ). When I was about 12 I started trying to sing lower and lower (rather than higher and higher, as my Dad maintains I should've), and remember how exciting it was to sing Ave Verum Corpus by William Byrd and have the low F at the end. Ahhh...

So yes, in years 8-9, around 2000-2001 (I feel so old!), I could scratch out an F below Middle C. Now I'm 23 and, having continued training it downwards, and being still pre-T, my personal best to date is the A below C below Middle C. So like, the bottom space in the bass clef. (I can gurgle an F# if I have a cold, but it's not exactly reliable. ).

So, my advice - in the car, in your room, even in the shower if you're so inclined, maybe pick a song (with or without the music) that starts stretching your range, and gradually work downwards to deeper and deeper songs. I can't say this is medical advice or anything, so be careful to not hurt your voice, but I just picked songs I liked that had slightly lower and lower parts to them, sing them for a bit, have trouble with the low sections, go to a higher song for a bit, then try again. If they were by women, I'd sing them an octave or two lower. You can go classical, like Ave Verum Corpus (either Byrd's or Mozart's, both awesome), Non più andrai and the lower parts of the Requiem in D minor (both Mozart. The Tuba mirum, Confutatis and Dies irae movements are particularly brilliant for this), and the choral finale of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 in D minor (the 'Ode to Joy' bit, sung down the octave. GIYF for the lyrics ), or more modern stuff, like 'I kissed a girl' (Katy Perry, again down the octave), some of the stuff from Les Mis, 'No place like London' from Sweeney Todd, Tumman virran taa by Ensiferum (Finnish folk metal band. This song isn't metal, but it gets down to a sub-tenor A), 'Every me, every you' by Placebo, or the French pop(ish?) song 'Elle danse seule'. Some of the Disney songs are awesome too, like 'A Whole New World' from Aladdin. You might still sound like a girl with a deep voice (I'm quite sure I do a lot of the time), but it will keep you singing in a range you're comfortable in. I can rarely bring myself to sing in my alto/'girl' range anymore, I just cringe and my brain screams GIRLIEGIRLIEGIRLIEGIRLIEGIRL!!!!!! until I drop back to where I'm comfortable - and happy - singing. Unfortunately, I don't think that deepening one's singing voice affects one's speaking voice all that much (at least, it hasn't worked for me), but it really is possible to belt out bass lines despite the oestrogen.

Dunno if any of that helps. But I do definitely know what you mean by

I find that the one thing that bothers me most (other than my chest, which can be remedied more easily) is my voice. Sure, I can try my best to train it better and eventually get testosterone, but that doesn't necessarily guaruntee that all of the dysphoria I feel will be gone. I'm someone who greatly values the idea of having a mature male voice... especially the ability to sing. Unfortunately, as things stand I don't do any form of vocal training and I've never really sung. I'm already shy and ridiculously timid, but the real reason is because the mere thought of using 'this' voice and sounding like a girl is horrifying to me.

When I first see a friend I haven't seen for a while and let out a bright happy "Hullo!", all I can think is "Argh, honestly, boy, can you possibly get any higher?!" *mental facepalm*. Yeah, it hurts, and as much as I feel like crawling off and curling up in a ball somewhere quiet, you know you can't. So I stay, and eventually get over the "OMGsoprano!" feeling, but it always comes back. With a vengeance, usually.

But yeah, hope that helps. Kinda maybe perhaps?

(And rock on keyboardists! ).

Don't let the dysphoria get you down, mate. Unlike other issues 'below decks' and so on, this one *can* be solved. Maybe not immediately, or with as much certainty as we would like, but it *is* possible.

[Guest Exeter]

Thanks everyone for replying. Thank you Liam for the links... I read them and it made me feel a lot better. I think I'll just really need to do some actual vocal training at some point and see what I'm capable of. Thanks Crossroads for your Youtube link. I was really impressed by how your voice changed from the earliest to the one year on T. You're looking and sounding good.

Thanks Remus for your advice and...

(And rock on keyboardists!)

Hehe.

The biggest reason why I have so much dysphoria at present, is because I've never really tested my voice a lot or done anything with it. I'm scared to, really. Afraid I'll be crushed... also, I can't really practise as I have no privacy at home and no car or licence. I'd have to go out for a walk and do it then. I'm just such a coward, though.

I think another reason why this vocal -- especially singing -- thing is such a source of depression for me is because the kind of singers I tend to relate to (and wish to emulate) most are very out of reach for me, having deep baritones. Stuff like Depeche Mode, Tears for Fears, and Spandau Ballet. If you've heard the lead singers, you'd see what I mean.

[Guest ShortyT]

I was singing a bit today to test my voice, I love Placebo but Brian's way to high for me. Depeche Mode is more in my current range, it seems. I think my voice was a bit on the low side to begin with though, I used to be in a pickle when we sang at work (yeah we do that quite a bit...) as I could never go as high as the women or as low as the men. XD

I still sound awful when singing though, regardless of range.

I was gonna record myself regularly (talking only..) to keep track of changes, but forgot after the first two recordings, but am back on board now. It was weird to hear the change I got from week 8 to week 21 on t.

[Guest Crossroads]

I was gonna record myself regularly (talking only..) to keep track of changes, but forgot after the first two recordings, but am back on board now. It was weird to hear the change I got from week 8 to week 21 on t.

I did this regularly my first year. And then my computer crashed and while I had been backing up all my videos and pictures, I had forgotten to back up my voice.

I forgot to mention this!! Go online and search simple scales. Sing a scale in your range 5 or 6 times a day. Each day go down one note. So start with a middle C scale. Then move down a half step to a B scale. Do that for a week. Then move down to an A. Do that for a week. Continue doing this and you'll find your range will begin to go down.

Try to sing from your diaphragm, not in your nose or throat. I used to put my hand to my diaphragm to help get the feeling. Don't worry about singing loudly. Just get the notes right and sing at a normal pitch for you.

This is how I widened my range when I was younger.

[Guest seanjamie]

Hey Exeter my voice was one of the things I was worried about too but mainly cause I was worried the ability I have to sing would be ruined by 'T' - after all these peoples help I'm sure it can be figured out . And your problem can be managed too - you'll be fine mate just gotta practice those scales by the sounds of it.

I hope you had a good day,

~Sean

[Guest Gauvain]

I haven't started T yet, so I can't really give you advice on that subject...

But I know exactly how you feel. I hate my voice so badly... I already knew it was bad, but I didn't realize how bad it actually was until I noticed my parents didn't delete the messages on the home phone. I was home alone and I played it and ended up hearing a few words of my voice from when I called from a friend's house. It sounded so horribly high-pitched and ugly, and caused my to freak out pretty bad. I hastily deleted the message and curled up on the couch and felt like breaking out in tears... Ever since then I haven't felt like talking at all, and even considered faking losing my voice for the rest of the week... I tried exercises a few times, but I just don't have much time to keep practicing them... My voice had been one of the main causes of my current depression...

[Remus]

Billy Tipton (transman pianist at the beginning of the 20th century) was said to have pretended he couldn't talk for 4 years to not give away he was biologically female. Or something like that.

And know what you mean about hating hearing your own voice, particularly when you're not expecting it and THEREITSUDDENLYISRARR!!!. Hmph. I know my voice in the mornings is always slightly lower and scratchier, so if yours is the same maybe try and figure out how it feels and imitate it? Even if you don't talk like that with other people, just you by yourself, you'll still hear your voice slightly lower and less feminine. Maybe, I don't know, I'm still having these issues myself.

One thing that sometimes (*sometimes*, not always) works that makes me feel good is when my voice breaks: assuming(/hoping!) it won't damage your vocal cords, if you sing a low song - however low that is, subsonic bass or lowish soprano is equally effective so long as it is low for *you* - then immediately speak normally afterwards it kind of goes all teenage boy wobbly for a bit (as the different parts of your vocal cords are used and so on). As I said, it doesn't always work, but it really does sound and feel like your voice is breaking when it does. (And again, assuming you're not doing damage... Ó_Ò ).

Hang in there, mate, it'll happen. I find Allegri's 'Miserere' is REALLY good to listen to to remind yourself that boys sing (epically) high too. *hugs*

[Guest SidESlicker]

Everyones given you sweet advice, so I'm just gonna add my two cents pretty quick.

Unlike MtF's, T does drop your voice, so I'm pretty sure you'll be fine. When it comes time that starting T is a reality to you, talk to your endo and doctor about your concerns and they'll be able to clear them up pretty quick.