The Gender Curse

[Guest]

I edit the Transgender news page daily http://www.lauras-playground.com/trans_news.htm . Often I get frustrated because it seems The news gets it so wrong about us especially when it comes to pronouns. Indeed Fox News makes it a sport to denigrate Transsexuals every chance they get. Obviously they are Jerry Springer Fans. I always thought that reporters got it wrong on pupose. If anyone should get at the truth they should. Recently I discovered that some do get it but they aren't getting published when they do get it right.

One of these is George Goodwin a free-lance author and reporter who wrote an excellent piece after interviewing two Transsexuals. He shopped his article around for 6 months but it was rejected for it's content every where he went. Laura's Playground is proud to publish his article here on the site.

The Gender Curse

http://www.lauras-playground.com/gender_curse.htm

Laura

[Guest eshaver]

You know Laura, that story with only a few minor changes could have just been my biography, whew.......................... Ellen Shaver

[Guest John68]

I would like to add that people from the outside world, do not view the pronouns that they use to be the wrong pronouns. While it may be frustrating here, the world views transsexuals differently than transsexuals view themselves. Many people see it as a mere change of sex. Changing the physical body for an unknown, personal choice. Because of this thought line, many people would agree that a MTF is male, and that a FTM is female. Here that is not the case. here a MTF is seen as a female, and a FTM is seen as a male. Which one is right? That depends on who you ask.

I personally do not believe that Fox News tries to "denigrate" transsexuals every time they get the chance. They have a different view of transsexuals, and the writers show their views through what they write. They believe it is a choice, and use pronouns accordingly.

I recently brought up this topic to my wife. My son has only told me that he wants to be MTF, but he told me he changed his mind, and has not talked about the subject for a while now. When I talked to my wife, she made it clear that she believes transsexualism is just a choice, and thus she believes her pronouns are the correct ones to use. She does not support any hate against transsexuals, but she does not believe it is a natural thing. I believe most of the world is like her, and uses pronouns like her for the same reasons.

John

[Guest Donna Jean]

John:

What has happened to you?

I would like to add that people from the outside world, do not view the pronouns that they use to be the wrong pronouns. While it may be frustrating here, the world views transsexuals differently than transsexuals view themselves. Many people see it as a mere change of sex. Changing the physical body for an unknown, personal choice. Because of this thought line, many people would agree that a MTF is male, and that a FTM is female. Here that is not the case. here a MTF is seen as a female, and a FTM is seen as a male. Which one is right? That depends on who you ask.

How bizzare...you seemed so compassionate..so caring.....

I personally do not believe that Fox News tries to "denigrate" transsexuals every time they get the chance. They have a different view of transsexuals, and the writers show their views through what they write. They believe it is a choice, and use pronouns accordingly.

Fox News does not "denigrate" transsexuals???? They flat out insult, embarrass, belittle, put down Trans and Homosexuals and any other alternate life style!!! They have a different view of transsexuals????They are a news organization..they don't HAVE A VIEW!!! Their moto is "Fair and Unbiased" Are you kidding me!!!??? They use pronouns in a hateful way..on purpose.

I'm feeling really bad right now..this does not sound like the John that we supported through your problems with your child...Please let me be wrong....

I recently brought up this topic to my wife. My son has only told me that he wants to be MTF, but he told me he changed his mind, and has not talked about the subject for a while now. When I talked to my wife, she made it clear that she believes transsexualism is just a choice, and thus she believes her pronouns are the correct ones to use. She does not support any hate against transsexuals, but she does not believe it is a natural thing. I believe most of the world is like her, and uses pronouns like her for the same reasons.

I'm having a hard time here, John...what's happened? Number one..your wife is wrong...transsexualism in NOT a choice.....How tall is she???? Was THAT a choice...???

I hope that i am just TOTALLY wrong, but.....

something is scaring me....

We were here for you...what has changed??

Donna Jean

[Guest John68]

Donna Jean,

I do not believe I have changed much, except for perhaps becoming more confident about my child. I am still the same compassionate and caring man as I was before. My intention was to inform the users here that the outside world, the non-transsexual community, uses certain pronouns while believing that those are the correct pronouns to use. I do not mean to say that these are the correct pronouns, but many people have different beliefs about transsexuality, and thus use pronouns because of these beliefs. Their choice of pronouns is not necessarily a reflection of hate, but because of how they view the cause or source of transsexuality.

I do watch Fox News often, but I cannot remember any specific time transsexuals were on the channel. So perhaps you are correct, but from what I can remember, I do not believe they try to insult transsexuals on purpose.

I am fairly sure my wife never supported the idea that transsexualism is a natural effect. My purpose in bringing her up, was to show that she is not trying to harm anyone in the LGBT community, and she believes what she says is true. I am not saying her beliefs are correct, either, but I am just using her as an example about how other people think.

I suppose what I have been trying to say is, all of us have a different opinion on the matter, and that is why different pronouns are used. And while it may be frustrating, it is not worth getting upset about, because all of these people have their opinions and have the right to have these opinions. In most cases, they are not trying to harm other people, they are trying to do what they believe is right.

John

[Sally]

Fair and unbiased news reporting went away with Randolfh Hurst! we have had nothing but 'yellow journalism' for as long as I can remember and I'm pretty old (OK, much more old than pretty). Every news agency has their own agenda which they follow religiously. As one newspaper gobbles up another and radio and television stations are combined into 'super stations' any sense of balance disappears. If you want the facts, you'd better go find them yourself!

Try this experiment with your local news programs (Record one if they are all on at the same time). Pick a story that you are interested in that is important enough to be on every station. Watch one station, then watch another - nine times out of ten it will be word for word the same story with a different 'talking head' reading 'thier' story straight off of the AP Wire.

Journalism died a horrible death even before the invention of television. Now the single most important part of any story is the name (and on TV - the face) of the reporter - that gets in before they warn you about the terrorist gunman running through your local shopping mall or a tornado that is on the ground. If the news was reported annonimously, ther would only be a couple of dozen reporters world wide, that's about how many true reporters are left.

Saddly Mr. Goodwin will have to give up his ideals and principles in order to work in his chosen and once lofty profession. But for now, thank you for trying - it is never easy to be different - he must feel pretty much like we do - not fitting in.

Sally

[Guest]

Recent research has shown that Transsexualism is not a choice in a two recent studies. Here's just one. Both the American Medical Association and both APA's recently came out in favor of The Wpath Standards of Care for treatment of the Trangendered. Who do we believe homphobes/Transphobes at Fox News or Doctors and Researchers? Those who say it's a choice really don't know the facts. Like it or not using the wrong pronouns is hatefull and Transphobic. Prejudice against Transsexuals has led to a 50% suicide attempt rate by their 20th birthday, which are actual numbers not an estimate. Every day here our suicide prevention crisis rooms are full 24/7. No one chooses this John. It is a medical condition verified by Doctors.

Gene linked to transsexualism

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/ge...-transsexuality

Laura

[Guest John68]

Laura, sorry for the misunderstanding, but I never said that I personally believe this is a choice. I was writing about others, the mainstream society.

I disagree that using the "wrong" pronouns is hateful. To the people using them, the pronouns are the correct pronouns. To us, they are the wrong pronouns. While here it may be interpreted as hate, the people using them do not always mean hate.

John

[MaryEllen]

I disagree that using the "wrong" pronouns is hateful. To the people using them, the pronouns are the correct pronouns. To us, they are the wrong pronouns. While here it may be interpreted as hate, the people using them do not always mean hate.

I'm sure that any bigoted or predjudicial person wouldn't have a clue that their use of wrong pronouns is hateful but in fact they are very hateful. Do you think I enjoy being called Sweetie, pervert, etc by people who don't even know me? I've been there and believe me, IT IS HATE. Does anyone, normal or otherwise, enjoy having insults hurled at them? I think not.

[Guest Arbon]

What John is trying to say is not being understood very well.

For example my wife, who is starting to understand that my feelings run pretty deep, is not going to start using female pronouns when addressing or referring to me (at least anytime soon). To her, I am still her husband, a man, and one that she likes to try to cheer up by bragging about what a great looking man I am at that. It is difficult for her to get it, that that is not a compliment I really like. But it is not because she hates me.

For her to think of me in a female sense is a long ways off. Not out of hate, but because she simply does not understand it. It goes against the grain of what she has been taught, what we have all been taught in society. But it is not about hate, like I said, and like John has tried to say, but about how people understand it.

Most of the people out there don't understand it, and don't care to understand it because it does not directly affect them. Some segments in society are very hateful about such things. And those that most are, not to pick on religion, but claim religion for their attitudes.

As for Fox - garbage. They have their target market, their target audience and they do skew and report things to best appeal to that segment. We are not the segment they are trying to appeal to.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Well...I have always been a sucker for giving the benefit of the doubt....but...

Let me run this by you....If a person has a club foot and you call them a "gimp" you may not feel that is insulting as it may be the way you were brought up, or location..or whatever.

That person asks you to please not call them that as it is hurtful and insulting. A thinking person would say "Ok, sorry" and that would be the end of that! A real human would not use that term again!

If someone asked you to call them by their name and you arbitraily call them what ever comes to mind..is that not an insult?

John said:

I disagree that using the "wrong" pronouns is hateful. To the people using them, the pronouns are the correct pronouns. To us, they are the wrong pronouns. While here it may be interpreted as hate, the people using them do not always mean hate.

Therefore it is "correct" to call someone whatever YOU perceive someone to be and not what they themselves want to be called?

John said:

I suppose what I have been trying to say is, all of us have a different opinion on the matter, and that is why different pronouns are used. And while it may be frustrating, it is not worth getting upset about

It's not worth getting upset about? We have suicide hot lines here on this site operated 24/7 by trained people...because, apparenty, there are some out there who DO think it is something to get upset about. That is just another brick in the wall.....

John, usually I can agree to disagree...meet half way...when you first posted here and told us about your son and your quest to understand and help him, I posted back to you that many here would like to have a caring father like you...since this topic started and has had many exchanges...the one and only thing you have said about your son/daugther was...

I do not believe I have changed much, except for perhaps becoming more confident about my child.

Is he/she getting better? Has he/she got help? Is he/she less depressed? Has he/she changed his/her mind completely?

Donna Jean

[Guest Arbon]

Well...I have always been a sucker for giving the benefit of the doubt....but...

Let me run this by you....If a person has a club foot and you call them a "gimp" you may not feel that is insulting as it may be the way you were brought up, or location..or whatever.

That person asks you to please not call them that as it is hurtful and insulting. A thinking person would say "Ok, sorry" and that would be the end of that! A real human would not use that term again!

If someone asked you to call them by their name and you arbitraily call them what ever comes to mind..is that not an insult?

Donna Jean

I am not sure if this part was directed at me or not. If it was then what do you doubt about me?

I get what John has was trying to say. Outside of our world (the one we encompasses) people (with a few exceptions) see things in regard to gender in black and white, boy or girl, based on what they see, what they were taught, religions, culture, society, parents and family values, television, schools, peers, or whatever. All those influences for most part say this is a boy and this is a girl and there is no other.

There is not much out there teaching people as they grow and become adults in this world that people can be this way on the outside, but identify as something else, or that they may change completely to the opposite gender. And there is no emphasis that that is OK, that is should be (or that is is even alright to be) respected, or even that they should be more sensitive and refer to us as the gender we ask them to refer to us as.

If I ever transition I am sure the great, great majority of people in this world will still see me as male in one way or another. But that does not mean that anyone who referred to me by a male pronoun would do so out of hate or intending/wanting to insult me. Most would do so because they simply don't know better, and they can't understand why it should be different. They don't understand because they have had no direct experience with it in the way we have. Wether it makes you feel bad, or me, or any of us, that is just the way it is. Your club foot analogy attempts to simplify something that can't be so simply cut out, defined and understood from our social / cultural norms and the mainstream physiques.

I am lost as to why there is such much dispute about what John wrote, or why it has made people defensive. He has been very clear on his posts, and I don't see the grounds for the dispute or reasons to pick apart his posts.

If I went and told my mom and dad about me today would they immediately accept me as female? What if I wore a dress and got all made up when I did it? No, they would still see their son, but in a dress. Five years later maybe I have gone all the way to SRS, there would still be a good likelihood that they would still see me as their son (a him), and still wearing a dress. Would that mean that they hated me? No. It would mean that they never came to be able to understand it in the way that we do. And for most people out there, no matter how hard you or I or all of us together might try to convince them otherwise, will always see it as a lifestyle choice.

Now if I came out and explained myself on my own website I would probably be hanged. That is hate. I know those people to (my website is filled with the people Fox tries to appeal to LOL - it is ironic and god how they do love fox news!).

Personally I think John has shown incredible support for his child and made great efforts by coming here to learn and find a better understanding around the issues. Most parents simply tell their kids that they are wrong, don't be like that, shame them, possibly beat them, drag them to the first shrink they can, make them stuff it down and lock down those parts of themselves. That is where the suicide, depression, anxiety, self loathing and all the other garbage that so many of us have been burdened with comes from. At least it was for me. Why I love this site is becuase we can talk about work through a lo of that stuff here and help eachother out.

But that is enough out of me on this thread.

And the article was pretty good to.

Arbon

[Guest mia 1]

Of course it is hateful. Not only hateful but perversly enjoyable. Ask any racist or antisemite if the "N"word or"K" word is hateful. They'll tell you no. Believe me I've spent my life around antisemites, who think their views are just fine. 'They did kill Jesus RIGHT?!!!! I've heard enough from them to know their small minds.

Last Quote directed to me" I'm not a racist,if I was I woudn't be friends with you. My answer,, "You're not MY friend!

Yeah, I'm going to out myself to these people,, Forget it.

Fox News trashes any one who doesn't fit their idea of what a real AMERICAN is. I won't even bother wasting Internet ether listing all the catagories. that includes, but I can telll you this Rachel Maddow would not be given an interview on that show without denigrating her liefstyle ,yet alone a one hr. nightly......................Mia.

[Guest John68]

Thank you, Arbon! It appears that you are the only one who understands me. I was not referring to terms, such as "Sweetie", but to pronouns, "he, she, his, her". If a person was to call you a Sweetie, that person most likely does not like you, and thus choose that word. He picked that word because of his dislike for you. But if he was only using a different pronoun, he does not necessarily dislike you or hate you, but merely believes that you are part of the other gender. That is all I am trying to say.

I have left my son out of my posts in this thread to stay on topic, but since you have asked, I believe he is doing well. He is not depressed, and he has not talked about transsexualism for a while now. I believe it is safe to say that he is feeling better now.

John

[Guest Donna Jean]

I have left my son out of my posts in this thread to stay on topic, but since you have asked, I believe he is doing well. He is not depressed, and he has not talked about transsexualism for a while now. I believe it is safe to say that he is feeling better now.

John

Hey, Thank you John..I really do appreciate that....really.

Donna Jean

[Guest Kelly Ann]

The best part of breaking up...is when your making up...whew...I was starting to become teary eyed, thanks for the meeting of the minds. My dad was over today and after all these years he still loves me for who I am...mis-guided as it may be...he acknowledges me for the person I am and all I attempt to contribute...hugs me every chance he gets and tells me he Loves me just often enough to make me blush. John, I'm sure you love your daughter/son for whom they are or you wouldn't be on this site, or even make an attempt to understand your child would you? Always love them...just don't make it a blanket Get Out Of Jail Free Card...my mother was the original 'tough love' parent and such an original soul the world cried at her passing, Kelly Ann

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Sorry -- I don't understand what was happening in this exchange? I saw John as using the "what people think" and was I wrong and it was a personal attitude? I still can figure this one out. The exchange seems so unusually confrontational for Laura's - but again I haven't been here that long. I just wonder what younger readers thought about all this.

Well thats's me I guess - and I am kinda outa it as I was up sick last night.

Just egnore this

[Guest Sarinah]

I understand what John and Arbon have said and I agree that there are so many people who do not understand the issue and therefore do not even realize what they are doing. I’m 26 years old and I didn’t even hear the term transgender till about a year ago. Until about 8 months ago I had an extremely narrow and conservatively negative biased view of what a transsexual was, even though all my life I felt that I was different. If it took me, a person who is living the issue, this long to understand and loose my trained biases; how can I expect anyone else to understand and thereby use the appropriate terminology.

I would argue that many(not all) of the people who intentionally insult do so because they don’t really understand. Its so very hard for people to truly understand things that they haven’t experienced. For many people transgender/transsexual is in direct opposition to their life experience and they cannot grasp it. For the majority of humans the reaction to anything they don’t understand is defensive: fear, prejudice, anger, and sometimes violence.

Just because others have been quick to judge us does not mean we should be quick to judge them.