Androgynous Living and Personal Integrity

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hi All,

Gender can be a very personal thing and not everyone wishes to allow their inner experience of gender show.

For me, my outward masculinity and gender non-conforming characteristics are a part of my wish to live with integrity and without secrets. I do not wish to live a lie and maintain an impossible facade.

I remember when I was about 8, that I told my Aunt that I would never wear make-up because that would be like wearing a mask and telling a lie.

My androgyny is an expression of my wish to live honestly, without an unnatural affect.

Ironically, because my innate gender expression does not fully match my physical anatomy, I am sometimes met with suspicion and contempt by those who feel morally superior, especially those who subscribe to very restrictive definitions of gender. Some people, perceive me to be intentionally deviant. In contrast, I am simply being true to myself.

How do you feel about the relation of gender expression and integrity? Are you met with scrutiny and suspicion because of your expression of gender? How do you cope?

Best,

- J

[Guest Micha]

Mixed feelings, integrity being taken as synonymous with honesty. There's more to it than that. It's action, rooted in sincerity as well as honesty. If I say "be yourself," but then continue to live in the closet, am I betraying integrity? Probably, yes.

I am not brave enough or bold enough to live how I want, to be who I am. I'm having a hard time dealing with that. It leaves me feeling helpless and lost.

So I guess I shouldn't preach so much? Maybe. . .

I guess when I talk about being true and honest I am really trying to encourage myself to come out of the closet.

I want to be proud of who I am, and what makes me "me." I don't want to hide it, and I feel so much anger and sadness about my apparent need to hide it. These emotions come out in so many ways, but I don't think I've ever once pointed my finger inwards.

I really admire you for this post, and I want to live like that too, with integrity. I don't know if I can or where to start, and the possibilities scare me.

I don't cope with it, I hide. Behind distractions, substance, every day life. Sometimes I guess I even try to deny my nature with excuses, or even with ideology. If I say gender is a poor reason to do something (like wear make up) then maybe I don't feel so bad about not doing it, even though I want to. Maybe that's my way of coping with not being true to myself? I dunno.

I do not act or think or look like how I want to, and I have no idea what to do about it.

[Guest Svenna]

I think that one has to consider every case individually...

For some, being true to themselves, in spite of a gender-variance, involves much less risk than for others...

In particular, it seems to me, that FTMs and female androgynes don't attract as much negative attention as MTFs (or even male androgynes). And if an MTF doesn't pass very well, the risk can be life and death in some locales. Where I live, females can wear male clothes and have masculine mannerism without anybody batting an eye. BUT, in this area, MTFs have been known to be attacked, even by police...

So, all things being equal, all things are NOT equal...

But I admire your personal choice, good for you!

Love and respect, Svenna

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Dear Micha and Svenna,

I think my post read differently than I intended! I am very sorry if I insinuated that not living in an outwardly androgynous or Transgender manner was in any way related to honesty or to integrity. I am talking about the whole person ... if one lives in a hostile environment, that person's choices are weighed with much different consequences. As Svenna said, it could cost one their lives.

Also, many people are very private or introverted by nature and this is as much a part of who they are as is their internal knowing of gender identity. For them, it would be unnatural and traumatic to jump head-long into being visibly gender-variant.

Thirdly, there are people who may have inward feelings of gender variance yet be very comfortable with outward "cis-appearing" characteristics. For these people, there is no need to change the outside appearance because it is natural for them.They are androgynous or gender-variant because of an internal knowing that is not dependent upon or possibly even related to their outward appearance.

Their are still others who long to change their outward appearance but would lose their jobs, families or would cause such discord in their lives that they are not able to yet viably choose a physically outward change.

What I was trying to address was my personal situation of being a very visibly androgynous person. It is something that I have not been able to hide despite my efforts earlier in life. I have never "passed" consistently as my biological gender. I have looked very masculine since puberty and was boyish even before that. ( I suspect that it is due in part to an endocrine disorder: I have a hormone imbalance that is related to a pituitary micro-adenoma. )

Anyway, the point that I was trying to make is that while I have accepted myself and my androgyny and I am living my "truth" I am ironically, viewed as "deviant" by those who do not understand gender-variance and therefore, I am sometimes met with suspicion and/or contempt. I find this to be so very odd because I am living without secrets, with honesty and integrity. Yet, I am met with distrust. This is the painful situation with which I must learn to cope.

"Hiding" or "not hiding" does not seem to solve the problem ... the problem seems to be rooted in the suspicious nature of those who fear people who are gender-variant.

I hope that this makes more sense?? Again, my apologies to Micha and to Sveena for not communicating with more clarity.

Best to All,

- J

[Guest runner2guy]

Juniper Blue - for the last couple of weeks we have been posting here and it's clear that in many ways we are similar but from opposite sides of the fence - a mannish woman and a womanish man. Yes, I know it's a gross oversimplification, but it sums it up.

But this post is to comment on the thread you started about integrity and here I suspect we can shake hands over the fence. You say

"I am ironically, viewed as "deviant" by those who do not understand gender-variance and therefore, I am sometimes met with suspicion and/or contempt."

In my case, looking back to my childhood, I'm afraid I didnt think too much about what other people thought about me and only recently started thinking more about it, but I now realise that I was always thought of as "girly", which cause hassle with some people and sympathy with others. I dont think I was considered "deviant". Do you mean "deviant", or would you be happy just with "boyish"? And then you say:

"I find this to be so very odd because I am living without secrets, with honesty and integrity. Yet, I am met with distrust. This is the painful situation with which I must learn to cope."

For the last couple of years, I too try to live without secrets, but I'm not complaining about distrust. And here is the point I think I made in another reply in another thread here. It all depends on your environment and lifestyle. I am a believer in trying to live naturally and as such society allows me to be a bit odd - the rude word is ecofreak, but that's what I am, and in fact my style is rather in fashion at the moment. And apart from my organic smallholding, I work in a pub, and there I'm allowed to be a bit odd too and I dont have to pretend. But if I was to be working in a city office manipulating money that doesnt exist except as a dream in other banker's minds, I think I would be met with distrust like you.

[Guest Svenna]

Juniper,

Please don't think even for a moment that I took any offense to your post, I didn't.

I liked it, actually...

My concern was only that somebody might make a leap of 'honest' faith without considering the un-undoable-ness of coming out. As we noted, it might be better to wait for some folks, especially those living around or with bigots.

We all need to stay safe, and that may be easier said than done!

Love and such, Svenna

[Guest Micha]

What are you apologizing for?

My post was a downer, but it wasn't a complaint, no worries.

My soul is taking a swim through Lake Stygian, in a sense; I am not in my happy place. Not your fault, so don't feel like you're to blame.

As for your situation, well. . . you are a deviant, as in walking the path less travelled and straying from the beaten path. Nothing to be ashamed of. To someone like me, it makes you amazing and a beacon of hope. If these people who behold you with contempt can't see in you what I do, it's their loss.

It's easy to say don't let them get to you. I could go on and on about why you shouldn't. But if I am to be honest, it gets to me too. I can't shake my self consciousness, my concern over other people's opinions and reactions. As well, I'm ashamed of that part of me, but there we have it.

As for my pity party post, it was honest. I had decided to be that much more true to myself before you even posted, and it really wasn't a reaction to anything you said. Don't worry about it.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Big Hugs to ALL of you!

It is so nice to be able to talk about all of this with people who understand.

To respond to Runner2guy ... yes, we are like two sides of the same coin. I have wanted to write you a note to connect. It might be fun to be pen-pals! I too, am into organic farming and fitness!

To address your comments ... yes, I think "boyish" is a better word choice for my youth ... I was not seen as "deviant" until I was in my late teens. I grew up in Orange County, California ... a very conservative community and I think that most people thought that my appearance was a deliberate rebellion as opposed to a natural expression. Today, there are fewer people who hold this view but there are still some who view gender-variance as an act of defiance as a willful "life choice"... which ... I guess that it is but what they do not realize is that my appearance is a natural act of expressing something that would otherwise be forced under/suppressed in a very unnatural (and unconvincing) way. It seems that people who do not understand gender-variance are convinced that those of us who are different are so because it is something that we choose as part of an "immoral life-style." That cracks me up because my life is soooooooooooo boring!

I know that discussions of religion and politics are not allowed here ... but the personal is political in many ways here in California (and in so many parts of the world.)

Luckily, those in my circle and everyday life are supportive of who I am. At the farm, my appearance is less important than my ability to weed, cultivate crops and harvest. The negativity that I encounter is with new acquaintances and strangers ... and in all honesty, I cannot read their minds but the long stares are sometimes unnerving. I am more often than not refreshed to find that many people that I meet in my dat to day life are very supportive ... People in general, especially youths, seem to care less about my appearance these days and are generally very warm. So, things seem to be getting better. My life is much easier in this regard than when I was in my early twenties ... that was a more dangerous time and I definitely had some close calls with bashers. There are still, the occasional yells from passing cars or harassing comments but this is not an every day problem. I feel that the tide is turning in a positive way.

I think that overall, I need to work on caring less about what others think when the risks are purely emotional as in the case of staring from non-threatening people etc. This naturally, needs to balanced with wisdom ... there is the reality that I must always be aware of my surroundings and be on "alert" on some level. it helps to remember that I am not alone in this ... even beyond being a gender-variant person, I am not alone. This is what so many people feel .... anyone who is a minority ethnically, racially, religiously ... many women and underrepresented groups, in general can relate well to my experience. And so ... in a way, each day that I live and work for equality, I help achieve this not only for myself but for others.

Micha ... one thing that may help to ease the sadness is to try to do one thing to help another human being in a similar situation each week. Amnesty International or other Human Rights groups may provide such opportunities or it may be closer ... in your own back yard ... perhaps there is a single Mom, a homeless person or a youth in need of help that you can reach out to. Even supporting Fair Trade coffee and other products can be away to reach out to help others. When I am most down, I try to do one good thing to help others ... this is healing to me.

Much love to you ALL! I feel better! Thanks Svenna, Micha and Runner!

- J

[Guest Chrysee]

Did you ever find comfort in knowing that others struggle with the same issues? I suppose it's natural: this goes on in Twelve Step groups all the time. However I feel guilty gleaning comfort from the pain of others. However, knowing that you are not alone is an amazing analgesic!

I have not posted in quite some time. I have been isolated from everything and everyone (even those with whom I live.) I was originally excepted by those closest to me but that initial reaction has waned and I'm shunned and criticized. My partner is nuts! She lets me know that she finds me rather repulsive when I 'present' myself as androgynous but then, after several weeks, wants to know why I am dressing like the old me. When I explain that I was trying to avoid upsetting her, she scolds me for letting someone else (her) tell me how to look.

Now what does that mean?

I am fed up and lost and angry and so very much on the verge of giving up. I cannot afford the gender therapist and the very subject suggests me with breasts and this sets my partner off like a flatlands tornado. What's more, my health issues dominate and my medical insurance continues to deny things.

Sorry to rant so!

Oh, and it's nice to have this place to come to. No one cares how I look here (infact, I'm wearing pajamas and have not combed my hair yet today.)

Love and have better days!

Cissy

[Guest Micha]

Did you ever find comfort in knowing that others struggle with the same issues? I suppose it's natural: this goes on in Twelve Step groups all the time. However I feel guilty gleaning comfort from the pain of others. However, knowing that you are not alone is an amazing analgesic!

I have not posted in quite some time. I have been isolated from everything and everyone (even those with whom I live.) I was originally excepted by those closest to me but that initial reaction has waned and I'm shunned and criticized. My partner is nuts! She lets me know that she finds me rather repulsive when I 'present' myself as androgynous but then, after several weeks, wants to know why I am dressing like the old me. When I explain that I was trying to avoid upsetting her, she scolds me for letting someone else (her) tell me how to look.

Now what does that mean?

I am fed up and lost and angry and so very much on the verge of giving up. I cannot afford the gender therapist and the very subject suggests me with breasts and this sets my partner off like a flatlands tornado. What's more, my health issues dominate and my medical insurance continues to deny things.

Sorry to rant so!

Oh, and it's nice to have this place to come to. No one cares how I look here (infact, I'm wearing pajamas and have not combed my hair yet today.)

Love and have better days!

Cissy

Tha's right Cissy, cuz we know how beautiful you are anyways.

I don't really see in as taking pleasure in the suffering of others, but more like the comfort that comes with this communion, of being and sharing with others who can do the same with us.

I am not happy to see you hurt. I am happy that I can empathize with you, and that you can share with me. There is a connection between people here that is, to me anyways, empowering and comforting. It's not just the advise given, but just the acknowledgement that I get here that eases my heart.

So yeah. . . not really sure where I was heading. <.<U

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

I always feel a little bit guilty when I come to these threads with people talking about struggle. Half of me wants to respond the topic: sense of personal integrity. The other half thinks doing so makes me a self-centered jerk bragging about my own success and happiness while others are obviously struggling.

The worst part is acknowledging you might be bragging is in a way bragging in and of itself, so I'm already a jerk.

If you are struggling then I really have nothing to say other than good luck. I hope you figure it out. As with any choice, list realistic options and weigh the pros and cons of each. Some say this approach is too pragmatic and Spock-like, but if you weigh your feelings in there with the practical things, I can't imagine a better way to come to conclusions. If two things sound equally bad, and one of them is where you are now, I say mix it up and try the other one. Maybe you underestimated its pros or over exaggerated its cons.

As for me:

I'm getting more androgynous every day. My facial hair's getting thinner, my body's approaching an interesting shape, and every haircut I get is more androgynous than the last. All at the same time, nobody thinks less of me. I'm told I'm more attractive and I look healthier. My friends who do know I'm specifically addressing gender issues are proud of me for doing something about it, and my friends who don't know respect me for not bowing to any societal pressure or falling into the common traps of being a teenager/young adult.

But I don't even feel societal pressure. I never have. Being myself and going with the flow have always been one in the same. I feel like I've never had to make a choice in my life, that the next step is always the logical and easy one. I'm proud that this is who I am but slightly ashamed I didn't have to overcome much of anything to achieve it.

I'm lucky. My personal sense of androgyny is mostly a desire to look child-like/boyish, which being as young as I am, I've already been this way for most of my life. What's going on here is more of a reversal than a dramatic shift. At the same time, my friends, family, and coworkers think I'm a genius destined for success and I have little doubt that if I did shift more towards the feminine side of things that they'd respect and maybe even admire it.

So, yeah, I'm androgynous and have integrity.

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

Annnnnd I just realized I was confusing integrity with respect, which is probably a sign that I've grown up in a world that respects integrity .

What I'm doing for myself has nothing to do with honesty or morals. I'm doing what makes me happy, what makes me feel good. As a matter of fact, when I started hormones, I lied to my parents for about a month explicitly saying I hadn't started hormones. I don't care if the world sees me as male or female or both or neither or whatever. What's important is that I feel good about myself and how I look. If I had to lie left and right to achieve that, I absolutely would.

But, like I said before, I've always been "me" and always will be "me". Maybe I'm strong, maybe I'm non-petty, or maybe I'm just detached from society so much that I don't notice, but I've never felt societal pressure to be anything but "me".

[Guest Chrysee]

I so thank all of you for being here!

As to coming to grips with my situation, my partner and I seem to be embarking upon an Inner Quest together t\hat may just help turn things around.

Love to all!

Cissy

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Great to see that the dialogue is still going! Wonderful new insights Cissy, Jo and Micha. It is interesting to hear how personal disposition and environmental factors affect one's transition and/or gender expression (and the consequences of that expression.) It seems that a confident person in a supportive environment may find little difficulty expressing gender-variance ... while, a sensitive person without support or in a hostile environment may (naturally) grow deeply depressed. I have days of feeling confident and days when I feel more sensitive ... outside factors definitely "throw me." Sometimes, it may take me a week or more to shake a threatening event like someone shouting derogatory remarks from a car. I am working on building a stronger "core." Having the support of this on-line group is helping. I take no joy in knowing that others suffer but I feel a sense of solidarity ... a feeling that we are all in this together and that makes me feel like I can be stronger because I know that my struggle will benefit more than myself ... it may help to shape the world and make it a kinder place for others. It is a lofty hope and kind of cheesy but I do think that we are interconnected and I think of it like tossing a stone into a pond ... you can see the ripples in the water and know that there has been a subtle change in that body of water. Thanks all!

Take a minute to remember that YOU are AMAZING ... there is no one in the entire world that is exactly like you and because of this, you have the ability to bring something precious and unique to every experience and interaction. And you do this simply by being who you are. There is no perfecting this ... You are perfect right now ... in this moment.

Best to You,

- J

[Guest Svenna]

Nicely said, Juniper Blue!

Thanks, Svenna

[Guest andy79]

Juniper blue, I wanted to reply to this since well after you and svenna posted on mine it made me feel kind of empowered at least for a little while. Lol I too have a hard time with the stares and the unnecessary comments from passerby's and a lot of times it makes me crawl back into my shell for a week sometimes 2. And then the need to be me draws me back to life until the next one, the ppl I have the hardest time with saying something is co-workers or family not sure why maybe its cause with them I feel like im on the spot. Anywho I just wanted to say thanks and you had given me the courage to do something yesterday that I had dreamed of for yrs and well it brightened up my day quite a bit. From what I can tell you are a fantastic and unique person who makes the world that much more beautiful and enjoyable so don't change a thing unless its for your happiness.

Andy

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Awwww ... thanks Andy! It is especially difficult when family members or co-workers behave badly. They sometimes seem to feel a comfort level that they mistake as a license to say whatever pops into their heads. And this can be a sticky situation in that , there is a lot to lose if a conversation does not go well and this makes communicating very strained, at times. It seems that eventually, most people open up and get over their fears. It takes some serious patience and sometimes self-restraint ( problay on EVERYONE'S part) to not put one's guard up and steer clear of conflict mode. But if one can keep a cool head, sometimes very positive communication is possible and this yields real change over time.

Keep being the one and only and most incredible YOU!

Bug Hugs to You,

- J

[Guest Chrysee]

Did you ever find comfort in knowing that others struggle with the same issues? I suppose it's natural: this goes on in Twelve Step groups all the time. However I feel guilty gleaning comfort from the pain of others. However, knowing that you are not alone is an amazing analgesic!

I have not posted in quite some time. I have been isolated from everything and everyone (even those with whom I live.) I was originally excepted by those closest to me but that initial reaction has waned and I'm shunned and criticized. My partner is nuts! She lets me know that she finds me rather repulsive when I 'present' myself as androgynous but then, after several weeks, wants to know why I am dressing like the old me. When I explain that I was trying to avoid upsetting her, she scolds me for letting someone else (her) tell me how to look.

Now what does that mean?

I am fed up and lost and angry and so very much on the verge of giving up. I cannot afford the gender therapist and the very subject suggests me with breasts and this sets my partner off like a flatlands tornado. What's more, my health issues dominate and my medical insurance continues to deny things.

Sorry to rant so!

Oh, and it's nice to have this place to come to. No one cares how I look here (infact, I'm wearing pajamas and have not combed my hair yet today.)

Love and have better days!

Cissy

Tha's right Cissy, cuz we know how beautiful you are anyways.

I don't really see in as taking pleasure in the suffering of others, but more like the comfort that comes with this communion, of being and sharing with others who can do the same with us.

I am not happy to see you hurt. I am happy that I can empathize with you, and that you can share with me. There is a connection between people here that is, to me anyways, empowering and comforting. It's not just the advise given, but just the acknowledgement that I get here that eases my heart.

So yeah. . . not really sure where I was heading. <.<U

I am at last seeing a therapist and though my insurance refused to pay (even when I took them to court!) for some odd reason they are now.

Divine Intervention, perhaps?

I attribute it (in part) to living in this magnificently weird town! God I love Portland (a.k.a. Rosaria) so!

Nice sharing with you,

Cissy