General Forum > What We Should & Should Not Be Doing As A Community

[JJ]

What we should be fighting for is the right to each express our gender and sexuality according to our own needs and beliefs without being attacked or belittled for it from outside or inside the community.

I said this in another thread. One being continually drawn off topic by this debate. Maybe it is a debate we need to have so we know what the feelings and opinions in the community are. And perhaps the demographic involved in that stand.

So here is your chance.

Why do you think anyone else has the right to tell me anything about being trans-or even what to call myself-TS/TG/ Transman - whatever? And why do you think anyone has the right to dictate any part of what the trans experience is or is not and should or should not be?

I'd really like to know the answer and am not being in your face-I really can't comprehend it.

So please respectfully explain your positions here. Whether you agree or not. I think we can learn something about own own community if nothing else. But only if we do this in a calm and reasoned way. Flaming rhetoric, satire or disrespect will do nothing except result in having the thread locked with no one winning. In fact no one should win. It's not a war, not an argument but a discussion. Please.

Johnny

[Guest Ney'ite]

Personally, I feel no one has any right to dictate anything to anyone. I know that when I reply to posts when people are looking for suggestions or some sort of "gauge" or something, I do my best to be very careful to preface and end my post with it being only *my* experience and that everyone's "mileage may vary."

I do know what you are talking about, Johnny. In my own experience, thankfully not within the Laura's community in my short time here, I have had to deal with people in RL with*in* the trans community who feel I should be an advocate or out there more visible and whatnot. I have also been told with regards to passing (I related a passing experience at a restaurant to her) "oh, I hate to burst your bubble honey but those people are trained to gender properly" (I politely defended myself with countless examples of which it would be unheard of that staff would be trained in small one-off establishments).

Sure, we are all on the same giant highway, however, we all drive at different speeds, in different vehicles, and get off at different exits. So for my point-of-view, there is no one set path to reach our target gender . . . we are not robots.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I am indifferent to what anybody else calls themselves or does to their bodies.

I am transsexual not transgender. I support the gender binary.

I accept that people fall outside the binary. Whatever works for them. I have always stated people should go as far as they need in transition to find comfort.

[Guest John Chiv]

Kimberly,

Your answer is excellent and if I had to sum up my beliefs, that would be it. I think this is an excellent topic Johnny.

John

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

I've been called a lot of things in my life, some I liked and some that I didn't......

But, usually I could handle it with an "Eh, whatever...."

But ......

I will not allow anyone to tell me how I should live my life according to what happened to them or their opinion of what I should live like...

I see too many handing out "life" advice. and my reaction to them is why aren't you happy, rich, in the catbird's seat?

Advice is like a light on in the room.......

If it's good leave it on....

If not, turn it off.......

Donna Jean

[Guest Risu]

Gotta agree with Kim and John on this one. What someone else does with their body, calls themselves or how they live their life is their business and I am not going to tell them how any of those things should be done.

I support the gender Binary because I believe I am female and I want to live a normal, quiet life as a woman. I will never turn my back on my trans history as my journey is a great personal achievements but I just want to blend in and fade away. As for everyone else, its up to you to decide where you fall and where you're most comfortable.

I don't believe we're all meant to be activists, but I do believe we should respect each other for the journey they are taking, the decisions they make for themselves and try to support each other rather than tell them how they aren't this or that because they don't fit my definition of any one lable.

"To Lable me is to Negate me."

Let people identify themselves.

~Risu.

[Guest Jessica_Mowry]

I don't know but as my dad said your old enough to do whatever makes you happy and as long as your not hurting anyone who gives a crap what anyone has to say about it but then again I am a radical. I think that as a community we need to focus on making our own ranks stronger and more secure but I don't have a problem with how others see their experience because as Chuck Berry said "Its a free country live how you want to live"

[Guest John Chiv]

Risu,

I like your response.

John

[Guest Mia J]

One of the things that I have seen in many communities is that the in-fighting among the members is so often worse than that from the outside. There are always those who must be right or tell others what they must do. I see us doing the same thing at times. It is fine for an individual to have a strong view on how things should be for themselves. I even respect that they have the right to think that others should be like that also. But that respect stops when they try to tell me that I must conform.

Like several others here, I also associate with being binary and female. When I came here I will be the first to say that I had issues with others that did not fit that under the transsexual identity. This came from old experiences in the past. WOW! Have my eyes been opened to how there is this grand spectrum and not just pink and blue. Only each of us has the right to decide what is best for our-self. We have enough people on the outside trying to dictate who we should be without us arguing the fine points of our selves withing the community.

We are a family. And just like all families there are many differences among us that we should respect.

Mia

[Carolyn Marie]

For better or worse, I see the Community as a political creation, and with politics in general, there is always debate and sometimes dissension. I don't think that's bad or harmful, as long as the debate stays civil, and the dissension doesn't derail progress or make discussion impossible.

People are entitled to their opinion, as am I. The tent that covers this Community should be big enough for everyone who wants to be included, with doors large enough for people to come and go as they please, to be included or not.

Live and let live, as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the thread, Johnny. Good topic!

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

For better or worse, I see the Community as a political creation, and with politics in general, there is always debate and sometimes dissension. I don't think that's bad or harmful, as long as the debate stays civil, and the dissension doesn't derail progress or make discussion impossible.

People are entitled to their opinion, as am I. The tent that covers this Community should be big enough for everyone who wants to be included, with doors large enough for people to come and go as they please, to be included or not.

Live and let live, as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the thread, Johnny. Good topic!

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

I'm not really looking for a political cure. I think education is a better weapon. And who gets to name the tent?

[Guest NatashaJade]

Hmmm...I hate this topic because people get really caught up in terms. I've seen some use the term "true transsexuals" or pejoratively label others on the Benjamin scale, implying that there is something better or worse about being whatever. The fact is, it's mainly cliquey and hurtful. There is a definite political identity that goes along with certain labels and, for better or worse, they have been adopted by the community at large as a means of serving us. There are some who chafe at anyone making them part of a group and then create separate group to belong in so they can feel some right to self-determination. It also gives them a place to lob attacks back at the group they do not want to be a part of.

And it's angry. And it's hateful. And it's mean.

And in the end, it doesn't matter at all to me because it doesn't change who I am, how I identify or how I treat my condition. Call me a woman. Call me a trans (-sexual, -gender woman). Call me a bi woman. Call me a Jewish woman. Call me an antheist woman. I'll answer to any of them. They all define me in some measure.

I prefer you call me Natasha though (or Tasha cause I like you...but not Tash, please...only ********* call me Tash).

xoxo

[Guest KimberlyF]

I have always found 'True Transsexual' conversations annoying.

If you haven't transitioned by 25, you are not a TT.

If you have ever had sex with your birth equipment, you are not a TT.

What I find interesting is given the chance how would you act if given power?

Should the majority of the minority rule? If one doesn't agree with the umbrella, is their options suck it up, or leave?

Again, I don't care how anyone else defines. The TG label does not sit right with how I feel about me.

[Guest NatashaJade]

But Kimberly, it's political. As for who gets to name the umbrella, it doesn't matter at this point. It's been named. All the quibbling and dislike of it aside, it is a political term in common use. If someone wants to call me a transgender woman, I don't really care. It's not what I would call myself, but it's accurate enough to a point that it doesn't offend me.

xoxo

[Guest Svenna]

I shouldn't even chime in, seeing as I feel so little connection to what appears to me to be a mythical beast, this 'community' I hear so much about. My trans-life has taken place without me being involved with any other trans-anythings. I have lived and continue to live amongst cis-folk and have known no other company, saving a few gay and lesbian friends over the years.

I know nothing about the hate, dissent, back-biting or such except what I hear second hand from y'all. It sounds yucky and like nothing I want any part of...

I hope that by living MY trans-life to the best of my ability, I may benefit many others, trans or cis, by providing an example of how to overcome obstacles in the path of one's happiness. I try to see this as an epic HUMAN struggle, otherwise I get sidetracked with self-pity and regret.

As for the 'gender binary', well, some days I am in, some days I am out....I'll keep ya posted on that one!

Whatever the 'Community' decides, I hope the result is more peace, love and understanding for everybody involved, cis, trans or otherwise...

Svenna

[Guest KimberlyF]

But Kimberly, it's political. As for who gets to name the umbrella, it doesn't matter at this point. It's been named. All the quibbling and dislike of it aside, it is a political term in common use. If someone wants to call me a transgender woman, I don't really care. It's not what I would call myself, but it's accurate enough to a point that it doesn't offend me.

xoxo

what if in a few years TPTB decide it would be better to ditch gender labels all together and you went from transgender woman to transgender. Would that offend you? Third sexes are being discussed in a few places around the globe.

If there was a poll done and the majority of the US decided too bad, you shall be labeled male, are you OK with that? Is that compassionate? It shouldn't matter to you. You had already been tagged male by someone else, right?

Now if the majority of the trans community decides too bad, I should be labeled TG, I should be OK with it too? It's such a compassionate world! Things would be Different if I were in charge!!!!

[Guest Mia J]

Kimberly - Uhhhh I am a dummy. What does TPTB stand for?

Svenna - I know what you mean. Outside of Laura's I do not have any interaction with the "community" local or on-line. I just live my life with friends and family as a woman. I know a few other trans folk but when we meet anything trans is never brought up. True, most who know me know I have transitioned but it is very seldom an issue.

Mia

[Guest Ann Onymous]

But Kimberly, it's political. As for who gets to name the umbrella, it doesn't matter at this point. It's been named. All the quibbling and dislike of it aside, it is a political term in common use. If someone wants to call me a transgender woman, I don't really care. It's not what I would call myself, but it's accurate enough to a point that it doesn't offend me.

And sadly it was named WITHOUT the consent of many post-operative men and women. I was opposed to the term AND the umbrella concept and had arguments with some of the current powers that be back in the early 90's when the likes of Frye and ilk began tossing the term around and insisting on trans-inclusion in the GLB politics.

Some have attempted to advance claims that my comments are telling people on the boards how that have to live or identify, yet those comments and opinions I express do absolutely no such thing. All I want is to not be forced under that insipid umbrella.

How someone else chooses to identify is certainly up to them. I have SIGNIFICANT issues when TPTB decide to co-opt the identity of post-operative men and women who have blended into the community without incident. The efforts at legislation are almost always incorporated with the claims that the 'community' needs to stand together. Well, screw that. Quite frankly, I have NOTHING in common with a drag queen or a weekend cross-dresser or even someone who chose to gender---Censored Word-- simply because it was the cool thing to do that week (not unlike when the issues of bisexuality were cover stories on the likes of Newsweek a decade or so ago). The issues faced by those individuals have little, if anything, to do with my life...and yet I got shouted down on another board when I noted that, from my point of view as a person in a post-corrected world, the current laws were absolutely sufficient to meet my needs. And I certainly do not need to agree that a penis'ed person has to be permitted into my locker room and cannot remotely fathom the whole 'non-op' concept given that when I was diagnosed with my medical condition, the very essence of transsexuality was the pervasive desire to have surgical intervention so that the outward appearance matched the mental self-concept- and that flies entirely in the face of the non-op stuff that seems to pervade the boards nowadays. I also need not agree that it should be permissible to modify drivers licenses without medical intervention (much less changing birth certificates and passports).

[as a caveat, I readily concede that I hold somewhat of a double standard as it relates to the distinction between the female to male and the male to female given that the surgical options for the born-female pale by comparison to what the born-male has available. However, I still feel that there MUST be more than simple HRT in order to justify modification to legal sex designators on official documents.]

When I transitioned a few decades back and had my surgery, I knew that I risked losing my position and, quite frankly, no amount of legislation could have changed that- I am in an at-will State which basically means the employer, even when it is the government, can essentially can an employee for almost any reason that did not run afoul of a protected class. I did not then and do not now see a legitimate basis to make trans-anything a protected class. As such, efforts to do so come across to me as an attempt to legislate special rights.

I never signed on to be a spokesperson for a trans-anything 'community.' I don't recognize nor accept the transgender label and I certainly don't wear a transsexual label like a badge. I have no qualms whatsoever identifying as a lesbian, and it is in that realm that I choose to focus my efforts on those occasions where I get involved with litigation or legislative lobbying related to personal matters.

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

First off........

The welcome page of this site written by Laura says......

Laura's Playground is a Free Support Site for MTF, FTM Transsexual , Transgendered, Crossdressers, Intersex, Androgynous and their Significant Others and Friends.

So, however someone feels that they fit in there....so be it......

Also, I wonder about the status of a Transsexual person that for medical (or other) reasons cannot have the SRS even though they desire it....are they therefore, not a "True Transsexual" because they don't have the badge?

Donna Jean

[JJ]

I frankly also have trouble identifying with an aspect of the trans umbrella-but I accept that it is a related condition and I do not-will not-voice that discomfort or want to deny anyone any label they choose. I do understand non-op because I think there are a host of reasons. Doesn't say someone doesn't want it-just sometimes can't. Though it is a royal pain I also have no quarrel with some proof being needed to be able to change documents. I support the criteria of living in your target gender for a period of time-a year maybe? Though am conflicted because that puts people at risk with presentation in one gender and documents in another. But so does any requirement for surgery plus adding a burden of expense that many just can't meet.

I really feel that gender expression should be legally protected period. The other anti-discrimination laws are not based on any criteria that I am aware of. Do you have to have a certain percentage of minority heritage to be a victim of a hate crime based on race? Makes no sense to me. If you are discriminated against because of the way you express your gender then it's wrong. And while anti-discrimination laws are far from perfect they do offer better protection than nothing and deter many people while sending a message to society. We need that in my opinion.

Those types of legislation don't force you under any umbrella in my opinion. Just says you and anyone else has the right to be and live as who you are without harassment and worse for it. I believe the same should be true for sexual expression between consenting adults-up to and including marriage.

I am somewhat conflicted about including in the LGB but if it accomplishes what we need then I can accept it. But I think it is and will continue to also be a source of misunderstanding about what being either transsexual or transgender really is. Yet we are unlikely to bring about legislation on own own -or as quickly -as we can if we coattail in on other LGB legislation or have our protection added to existing laws that protect the LGB community.

Nor am I active in any community locally. I know of 2 identified LGBT people in my county and not one other trans person. It's a geographically large county too. In fact I believe that the nearest group is almost 2 hours away from me and meet about once a month. I can't make those meetings right now. But I fiercely believe that by being myself I am an activist in a very real sense because the next time someone calls us freaks or weirdos or whatever those who know me will have an image that I believe counters that. I don't have to parade with a banner to be heard or to change the world. I can do it by example. By speaking with a firm proud voice. I will not hide nor will I proclaim who I am. That is enough for me. but I will vote and I will educate when the situation warrants.

I call myself transgendered because I refuse to identify myself with the stereotypes associated with the word transsexual for society at large. That isn't me and it never was or will be. I am transsexual as we understand it here. But that makes all the difference. We do understand it here.

Johnny.

[Guest Ney'ite]

Also, I wonder about the status of a Transsexual person that for medical (or other) reasons cannot have the SRS even though they desire it....are they therefore, not a "True Transsexual" because they don't have the badge?

That is something that really REALLY annoys me to no end when I am asked this by some post-ops in my RL. Often it is the first question, "Are you post-op or pre-op?"

[Guest NatashaJade]

But Kimberly, it's political. As for who gets to name the umbrella, it doesn't matter at this point. It's been named. All the quibbling and dislike of it aside, it is a political term in common use. If someone wants to call me a transgender woman, I don't really care. It's not what I would call myself, but it's accurate enough to a point that it doesn't offend me.

xoxo

what if in a few years TPTB decide it would be better to ditch gender labels all together and you went from transgender woman to transgender. Would that offend you? Third sexes are being discussed in a few places around the globe.

If there was a poll done and the majority of the US decided too bad, you shall be labeled male, are you OK with that? Is that compassionate? It shouldn't matter to you. You had already been tagged male by someone else, right?

Now if the majority of the trans community decides too bad, I should be labeled TG, I should be OK with it too? It's such a compassionate world! Things would be Different if I were in charge!!!!

Should it be a legal designation, I would have an issue. The same as if I were forced to wear a yellow star of David or have some kind of legal insignia proclaiming my lack of faith. As someone who prefers the gender binary, I would not be happy with any kind of legal designation.

But legal and political are separate things.

And I'm not going to say any more about this because this conversation quickly devolves into the idiocy that has made the trans blog community so poisonous. I don't feel this discussion really belongs here at Laura's because it is so loaded and contentious that the disagreements cause rancor in a place where rancor does not belong.

[Guest KimberlyF]

But Kimberly, it's political. As for who gets to name the umbrella, it doesn't matter at this point. It's been named. All the quibbling and dislike of it aside, it is a political term in common use. If someone wants to call me a transgender woman, I don't really care. It's not what I would call myself, but it's accurate enough to a point that it doesn't offend me.

xoxo

what if in a few years TPTB decide it would be better to ditch gender labels all together and you went from transgender woman to transgender. Would that offend you? Third sexes are being discussed in a few places around the globe.

If there was a poll done and the majority of the US decided too bad, you shall be labeled male, are you OK with that? Is that compassionate? It shouldn't matter to you. You had already been tagged male by someone else, right?

Now if the majority of the trans community decides too bad, I should be labeled TG, I should be OK with it too? It's such a compassionate world! Things would be Different if I were in charge!!!!

Should it be a legal designation, I would have an issue. The same as if I were forced to wear a yellow star of David or have some kind of legal insignia proclaiming my lack of faith. As someone who prefers the gender binary, I would not be happy with any kind of legal designation.

But legal and political are separate things.

And I'm not going to say any more about this because this conversation quickly devolves into the idiocy that has made the trans blog community so poisonous. I don't feel this discussion really belongs here at Laura's because it is so loaded and contentious that the disagreements cause rancor in a place where rancor does not belong.

Well, when the political is talking about pushing laws then the legal and political are interwoven.

As for this discussion, it doesn't have to become heated or devolve into anything. JJ asked a question that needs to be addressed. This part was the key to me. I answered it in my first post. I try to treat people with the same respect they have shown me. We're mostly adults here. My opinion or your opinion will not cause harm. But forcing my belief system onto another isn't right IMHO.

Why do you think anyone else has the right to tell me anything about being trans-or even what to call myself-TS/TG/ Transman - whatever? And why do you think anyone has the right to dictate any part of what the trans experience is or is not and should or should not be?

I am indifferent to what anybody else calls themselves or does to their bodies.

I am transsexual not transgender. I support the gender binary.

I accept that people fall outside the binary. Whatever works for them. I have always stated people should go as far as they need in transition to find comfort.

Treat people how you want to be treated. Do you want people to address you in a certain way? Shouldn't you address them in a certain way too then?

[Guest Ann Onymous]

And I'm not going to say any more about this because this conversation quickly devolves into the idiocy that has made the trans blog community so poisonous. I don't feel this discussion really belongs here at Laura's because it is so loaded and contentious that the disagreements cause rancor in a place where rancor does not belong.

Where then would you suggest the discussion should take place? It is PRECISELY because of the refusal to discuss the issue that it becomes so heated. The umbrella crowd always resorts to the 'we have to be united' nonsense which completely ignores the reality that many transsexuals and former transsexuals want NOTHING to do with the umbrella or the political crap associated with it.

Consequently, we get left with the 'we must discusss and unite...' tripe followed by efforts to quash and quell any real discussion that does not comport with the umbrella group-think after which that dissent is dismissed as 'loaded and contentious' (to use one example).

Just because some have a common medical condition does NOT mean that there is a 'community' line of thought...

[JJ]

We do have to recognize that at it's heart and by it's terms this site is all about transgender inclusiveness-but-and I think this is vital-not about that in a political sense or an activism sense but that we will accept and support anyone who fits that term. If someone doesn't want to be included under that term that is their right but this site very clearly is all about inclusiveness.

You are welcome to explain why you feel separate as long as that can be done without attacking or labeling or otherwise rejecting non TS for example in relation to this site and their right to equal support. Stating your feeling of being separate and your reasons for not wanting to be joined politically or by societal perception is something can and perhaps should be discussed. That is a very difficult line to walk I think. I may not agree with you-in fact have stated that I don't-but that doesn't mean I won't learn something from your attitudes and beliefs. I am unlikely to be persuaded but I may find it easier to communicate when I see why you feel as you do.

I respect that we don't see things the same. I'm not insisting that you accept my view just respect it as I will respect yours. Maybe that way we can find a way to communicate at least. No one here is insisting you unite with anyone. The T & C do demand that you respect all the people covered by the term transgender and their right to be part of the site and express their opinions too whether you agree with the term and it's definition or not. We aren't a political site. We are a suicide prevention and support site and that makes a difference.

Johnny

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