General Forum > What We Should & Should Not Be Doing As A Community

[Guest KimberlyF]

On the TS Roadmap homepage, self-acceptance is listed as the most important page. Great site, btw. I've mentioned that a lot too.

Sometimes it's hard to choose be a minority. But its harder to hate yourself and live a lie. Sometimes it's hard to be a minority within a minority. But the same rules apply. Neither might nor numbers make right.

On these points, Kimberly, I very much agree. Although I didn't, of course, choose to be trans, but that's a quibble.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

No quibbling necessary

I was talking of the very real process where we begin to accept ourselves and live an authentic life instead of a lie. We don't chose to be trans, but we have to chose how to act on it.

If we are trans on paper only, we don't risk losing family or jobs or what have you.

[JJ]

I understand your point Kim but I don't see trans ever being on paper only. If we don't risk losing friends, family etc we risk losing ourselves and a life that has full potential. Not for everyone I am aware but for those who are transsexual almost certainly in my opinion. I lived without transitioning for 60 years. And I paid a price I would not wish on another living being. So much pain and bewilderment and misery!

For me it wasn't a matter of self acceptance but of knowledge that transmen existed and that I had a choice. In a funny way deciding to self label as asexual was actually harder as far as acceptance ( It turned out not to be true but that's another story.). I have moments about the transsexual label because it is so far outside the norm in a way but not about the fact that I am a man. I just had the perspective wrong all those years while I was saying I was a woman with a man's mind-I am instead a man with a woman's body. Well. used to be anyway. Not so much now. Now I'm an anatomically challenged man.

Don't really care what I'm called as long as I call myself a man.

Sorry rambling around. I'm unfocused today for some reason

Johnny

[Guest Donna Jean]

On the TS Roadmap homepage, self-acceptance is listed as the most important page. Great site, btw. I've mentioned that a lot too.

Sometimes it's hard to choose be a minority. But its harder to hate yourself and live a lie. Sometimes it's hard to be a minority within a minority. But the same rules apply. Neither might nor numbers make right.

On these points, Kimberly, I very much agree. Although I didn't, of course, choose to be trans, but that's a quibble.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

No quibbling necessary

I was talking of the very real process where we begin to accept ourselves and live an authentic life instead of a lie. We don't chose to be trans, but we have to chose how to act on it.

If we are trans on paper only, we don't risk losing family or jobs or what have you.

I took that risk and like any casino, the odds were stacked against me and I lost all.......

But, found myself......

Donna Jean

[Guest BeckyTG]

I took that risk and like any casino, the odds were stacked against me and I lost all.......

But, found myself......

Donna Jean

I think you came out the big winner...

You took the prize.

Love,

Becky

[Guest Sheri-bi]

Regarding my post about declassifying "gender identity disorder" (GID) in the APA's DSM, KimberlyF writes:

"It confused me a bit. The APA is now diagnosing people with TGID?"

As I understand the APA's position, you can only receive a classification of GID if you are mentally conflicted about it. If you are a well-adjusted transgender person, you can't receive the diagnosis. But a diagnosis of GID can currently have legal and insurance benefits. Declassifying GID could potentially eliminate those benefits.

This is a very complex issue with profound legal and insurance consequences. There are pros and cons for each position. Those who favor declassification see a parallel with the declassification of sexual orientation in 1974 which opened up legal rights for gay and lesbian individuals. Those who do not favor declassification think that the parallel is overstated.

I'm not qualified to explain further these positions, but the issue has real consequences for all transgender folk.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I didn't know that

Like I said, I'm coded with an endocrine disorder and general depression.

So people tagged GID are not well-adjusted? Hmmmm.

I'm gonna pull up a seat.

[Guest Micha]

Forget all labels, forget all banners.

But to support the binary I must forget myself.

No can do luvies. The binary system fails me, and I can not live by it. I appreciate people sayin nice things about to each their own, but I find it hard to see how someone can support me being me, and support a binary system at the same time? S'like pouring water into a leaking bucket, isn't it? I ask why. Why does there have to be a one-or-the-other binary system in order for people to feel they are a woman or a man? Binary by definition means two, and only two. There's no room in a binary system for anything else. I simply cannot see how someone can support a binary system at the same time they can accept that there's more. I can't see how it works. You as an individual can still be man or woman, without a binary boundry. There are the two, and then there's so much more too.

And why the hell is gender so damned important anyways? As far as legal documentation, applications, or any other sorts of paper work, why do these people (excluding physicians, reasoning should be obvious) need to know what's under our clothes? Is who we are and what we're capable of so dependant on an X or a Y? Does it really make a difference?

It does, but in all the wrong ways. Prejudice, stereotypes, the way people treat you, all based on a meaningless box that discloses information about your body other people aren't privledged to know. Might as well strip for an interveiw for what it's worth.

The binary system says I'm wrong. I'm man, woman or I'm flawed. Rejecting the system however, means no one is flawed. It means we're free to be who we are, whatever we are, and that includes people who are comfortable with the binary standards, people who fit those standards. they be just as right as they were before; the difference would be no one is wrong.

Today I am not free, and to explain why would take a lot of introspect - more than I've already done. I can't explain it to any satisfaction so I won't try as of yet. But this is wrong, I know that much. I'll always respect you as an individual. If you're a woman I'll call you she, a man I'll call you he, but please know what it means to support a binary system. A binary system can accept only men or women, nothing else. Supporting that system is not accepting or supporting anyone who doesn't fit that system; you can't do both at the same time.

My two cents, worth less than half that.

[Guest cassie51]

Did anyone get the license number of the 18 wheeler that ran through this thread?

I will be the first to admit that I am probably far behind the curve when it comes to trans-activism and completely uninformed of the divisions within the entire trans community. So if I ask questions, please know that I am not trying to be funny or cute, just curious.

There are those out there that really believe if you have not transitioned by the age of 25 or used your birth "equipment" that you are not a "true" transsexual? Really? I would LOVE to speak to them. I wasn't aware that there were "untrue" transsexuals. What is the world coming to? The next thing you know, people will be cooking with something called "microwaves" and trying to put a person on the moon. A world gone mad!....sorry, just a little irritated at the moment.

There are those that feel that trans-peoples legal rights do not need protection under the law? And the ones who believe it are trans themselves? What?

All I know is, I am ME. I don't really care what label you give me. All I want is basic human respect and non-interference with how I choose to live my life as long as I am not hurting anyone else. Also to respect and recognize my true gender. That's it, nothing complicated. And I will happily return the same to everyone else.

I really would like for someone to answer my questions, I was being serious.in asking them.

Watch out for those big trucks......

{{HUGGS}}

Cassie

[Guest cassie51]

PS....you are such a rabble-rouser Johnny! You went and done it again....

Just kidding, I love you JJ!

Cassie

[Guest Szenzie]

I didn't want to post in this thread. Hypocritically speaking, I'm adding my 2 cents after steaming about it all weekend after reading this quote in Gender Outlaws (Bornstein, Bergman).

Yet just as anyone can call me whatever they want, it is up to me to decide whether I care to answer.

What I learned from this thread: I'm a newbie but it's clear as day to me that while it's secondary to the main purpose of this community - there is a TON of room for fair, balanced, uncensored, intellectual discussion. However, if this discussion is not presented in such a way that it caters strongly to the PRIMARY purpose of the community, it doesn't belong. The primary purpose, in my own words and experience is that it's a light for those in a very, very dark place. Love.

♥ Peace ~Szenzie

[Guest KimberlyF]

Forget all labels, forget all banners.

But to support the binary I must forget myself.

No can do luvies. The binary system fails me, and I can not live by it. I appreciate people sayin nice things about to each their own, but I find it hard to see how someone can support me being me, and support a binary system at the same time? S'like pouring water into a leaking bucket, isn't it? I ask why. Why does there have to be a one-or-the-other binary system in order for people to feel they are a woman or a man? Binary by definition means two, and only two. There's no room in a binary system for anything else. I simply cannot see how someone can support a binary system at the same time they can accept that there's more. I can't see how it works. You as an individual can still be man or woman, without a binary boundry. There are the two, and then there's so much more too.

And why the hell is gender so damned important anyways? As far as legal documentation, applications, or any other sorts of paper work, why do these people (excluding physicians, reasoning should be obvious) need to know what's under our clothes? Is who we are and what we're capable of so dependant on an X or a Y? Does it really make a difference?

It does, but in all the wrong ways. Prejudice, stereotypes, the way people treat you, all based on a meaningless box that discloses information about your body other people aren't privledged to know. Might as well strip for an interveiw for what it's worth.

The binary system says I'm wrong. I'm man, woman or I'm flawed. Rejecting the system however, means no one is flawed. It means we're free to be who we are, whatever we are, and that includes people who are comfortable with the binary standards, people who fit those standards. they be just as right as they were before; the difference would be no one is wrong.

Today I am not free, and to explain why would take a lot of introspect - more than I've already done. I can't explain it to any satisfaction so I won't try as of yet. But this is wrong, I know that much. I'll always respect you as an individual. If you're a woman I'll call you she, a man I'll call you he, but please know what it means to support a binary system. A binary system can accept only men or women, nothing else. Supporting that system is not accepting or supporting anyone who doesn't fit that system; you can't do both at the same time.

My two cents, worth less than half that.

I've always found your posts well spoken, and I think you can demonstrate what I've been trying to say.

We are not one big happy TG umbrella. The arguments of binary Vs. non-binary continue to be brought up on this board every month or so. What works for TSs does not work for Androgens. And instead of dealing, we as a community have decided bathroom laws are a top priority.

It's like the LGBt. Sure, most of us have protections against job and housing discrimination in most states, while the group treated the worst in this area has the least. But right now we have to throw all our weight behind gay marriage. We'll be back for you all later!

Micha,

I can no more reject the binary than you can embrace it.

As long as the M and F boxes are always there and TSs are allowed to check them, they can add any boxes that could make you feel better about yourself, or even give you the right to abstain from answering, and if it will make you happy, it's a win,win. But I don't know what you'd think of an option like that. I think in the current system, you too will be railroaded being a minority of a minority.

[Guest musicalice]

Whenever I come out, I ask that people trust my definition of myself, despite the fact i look like a man. And therefore I cannot bring myself to do differently to anyone else, however they look and however they feel; that would feel hypocritical.

If Ann is not transgender, as she identifies, fine, but i think she should therefore respect those of us who are or say we are when arguing against laws designed to protect those of us who are. It is not her business, as she points out herself. If she defined herself as transgender despite being post-op, then it would be. Regardless, I wish her all the best as another human.

My opinion.

[JJ]

I for one find it simple. Allow all gender expression equal coverage and equal rights. If people want to know gender-and medically it can be relevant-then let them have an open space to write it in. Otherwise why is it there? Because we want to pigeonhole people with outdated cultural biases.

And it does matter. You will find that no only do men and women not make the same pay for the same job but frequently don't even pay the same for the same goods. Gender biases are pervasive in our society and the truth is that as long as we can exclude or discriminate against anyone on the basis of gender that exclusion can be expanded to include any other group as well. Any historian, any sociologist, will affirm that for you. If the rights of any part of a group are curtailed it can and often has led to curtailing the rights of others within the group. So no matter how much you want to say your rights are one thing and their's are another because you are different and the way it is suits you, that just isn't true.

As long as we judge on gender expression we are all at risk. I also find it strange but perhaps understandable when people feel they are no longer trans after transition and therefore trans issues no longer apply to them. Medically and physically they are a person who transitioned their body and gender expression from one gender to another. And as hard as it is to swallow that does not make us natal. I am and always was a man. My brain is male. Undeniable. But nothing I do will ever make me other than a transman or identical to a natal male bodied man and because of that any threat to gender expression is a threat to me personally. I think many of us go into denial about this because it is a hard and unpleasant truth. You don't have to live a trans life. You can relax and forget it 99% of the time if you want-but you can't change the fact that you are transsexual or transgendered. Those who are not binary don't have that luxury anyway. Maybe that is why some of us reject that segment of the community. They remind us of what we want to deny even to ourselves

Johnny

[Guest Micha]

As long as the M and F boxes are always there and TSs are allowed to check them, they can add any boxes that could make you feel better about yourself, or even give you the right to abstain from answering, and if it will make you happy, it's a win,win. But I don't know what you'd think of an option like that. I think in the current system, you too will be railroaded being a minority of a minority.

I don't support a third box, I reject all boxes. From official documents to online social networking to work applications, I reject the requirement that we disclose our genetalia. I do not ask that Transexuals be forced to disclose their trans "status," I demand that OUR privacy be respected. As Johnny points out, gender based discrimination is still widely suffered, and the continuation of today's and past standards are only going to keep it alive. As Jeff Perera said, I want to end gender. I focus on my self, but I want all people to just be people, undefined by required feilds and boxes.

I don't want to take affirmation away from anyone, and I realize how I come off. In truth, I feel it would empower everyone to stand and say "I don't need a box to tell me who I am!" If I'm wrong, please don't hold it against me.

Thank you Kimberly, for being cool about it.