Androgynous by Default

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hey All,

Does anyone feel that they are androgynous by default?? I mean, everything that makes me look "masculine" is the result of my practical sensibilities ... Men's clothes are durable and comfortable. They are also easy to find and size on ebay (or to find in thrift stores) and are thus very affordable (and men's clothes come in cool subdued colors that I like.) Men's shoes are comfortable and are often quite durable as well. Ultra short hair and no make-up is easy... I can fall out of bed and walk the dog .. no problem.

Even my surgeries ( which were not optional BTW but conveniently fit into my andro preferences) are quite practicle. Look Mom .. no more sports bras ... (If I find any that I missed with the bonfire I'm gonna' us 'em as melon holders in my summer garden! Reduce Re-use Re-cycle!) And hey, no more need for monthly Barbie beds and Barbie Bullets! Oh ... the money I have saved over the last 8 years!

I never thought of my look ( or my body) as being a political thing .... to me, in my life, it is such a major waste of time and money to dress up as a woman and it is sooooo uncomfortable!! Maybe I just have allergies but how can you girls handle the eye make-up or itchy lace?? And the DRY Cleaning or hand washing of some women's clothing! I just couldn't take it. Nylons!! Shoot me now!! And shaving one's legs and even one's arm pits!! Lordy-lordy!

I guess that is why we are all different. I see woman both cis and trans who go all the way with fashion and make-up ... They actually seem to LOVE it! For them, it seems natural. And then there are androgynes who love womens' clothing and make-up as well and this doesn't even get into men who cross dress. No doubt ... people are into it.

Me, give me a soft t-shirt, a nice cotton button down, a comfy pair of jeans or Khaki's and I am happy.

Since I am on a rant, I will note that some of the reasons for not wanting to be male are practical as well ... I don't wan to worry about T, I would feel annoyed having to deal with facial hair, and my goodness, if my nubbin' was to grow or if I did bottom surgery, I am sure that the new "gear" would bug me too ... I would be one of those guys who was always adjusting himself. And socially, I would hate everyone looking at me when a computer crashed or a screen door needed to be put back on track like I was some kind of a handy man.

I don't know ... sigh. I just remember a time when my androgyny was no big deal and if it was a signifier of anything political, it was that I was a feminist. Now-a-days, it seems to be much more a "statement" and reason for people to assess my gender. I can handle it .... but I don't like the extra attention ... I feel like things were almost at the point in my life where if someone noticed that I was female they just assumed I was a lesbian and didn't seem to care 9 out of 10 times ... and that was a nice place to be since I remember when that was in the reverse and when being a visible lesbian almost cost me my life. Now, there is this added new ... scrutiny ... "Is she a lesbian or a trans man??" I look forward to the day when I just get to BE .... whatever and nobody cares. In the meantime, I try not to care ... but as you all know, that is easier said than done.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest Shy]

Hey JB,

It is truly confounding why we have affinities for the things we do. With all of the time in the world, I couldn't begin to explain why. I am transsexual despite not having done much as far as physical transformations, but I feel like I live a life of a butch woman. I don't wear make up often, though I do on occasion. I mostly wear slacks and a button up like you, but I do enjoy a pretty skirt and blouse. I wouldn't say I'm androgynous by default, but I do tend to float back and forth along the spectrum. As you said, there are all different types out there.

I can totally relate to people assessing your appearance as some kind of political statement. I think it's partially because most people are uncomfortable with the idea of gender being something that's fluid. They have grown up in rigid roles, but now 'all these freaks threaten their identity!' ;P Saying it's political makes it okay to attack and criticize, because everyone debates politics, right? Wrong. But people frame it that way so they can put it down. The most important thing for me has been meditation. Normally, I get intense anxiety about what other people are thinking, but when I meditate, I don't totally identify with those paranoid thoughts. This allows for some actual living.

Hope you can ignore the haters and live how you want in peace.

-mari

[Guest Robin Winter]

That's unfortunately how it is right now. We're still fighting the good fight, and until we finally have all the rights everyone else has, and everyone can feel safe to come out and we become a very visible group, then we're going to stand out. We are in the uncomfortable but important position to be paving the way for future generations of trans people to be able to just "be".

[Drea]

Nice post JB.

I was wondering where you were going since, well I saw no problems. How one chooses to live shouldn't be a big deal and in many instances it isn't. Especially with someone andro though it could cause the occasional wonderment of "is that person male or female?".

At the end though you state:

I don't know ... sigh. I just remember a time when my androgyny was no big deal and if it was a signifier of anything political, it was that I was a feminist. Now-a-days, it seems to be much more a "statement" and reason for people to assess my gender. I can handle it .... but I don't like the extra attention ... I feel like things were almost at the point in my life where if someone noticed that I was female they just assumed I was a lesbian and didn't seem to care 9 out of 10 times ... and that was a nice place to be since I remember when that was in the reverse and when being a visible lesbian almost cost me my life. Now, there is this added new ... scrutiny ... "Is she a lesbian or a trans man??" I look forward to the day when I just get to BE .... whatever and nobody cares. In the meantime, I try not to care ... but as you all know, that is easier said than done.

What you are experiencing here is a direct result of increased awareness about trans and is very similar to the effect that a MTF might experience post transition. When there wasn't awareness that MTF would be seen as a woman but with awarness on the rise there is a greater and greater likelyhood of that person being read as a trans woman.

It is really hard to say where it will lead. Will more awareness resolve the issue in your instance or make it worse? I could see it making it better potentially if awareness included all the different distinctions, but maybe that is just too much overload for the average person since even within this community it can be hard.

It seems to me that the biggest push for awareness is among those activly transitioning or transitioned so most awareness efforts focus on transsexuals or transgendered who are transitioning. Thus what you are expereincing.

It certainly is another twist on the whole awareness thing that hadnt' crossed my mind. Thank you for bringing it up.

[JJ]

Funny how differently our times and backgrounds and ages can affect us! I was born into what could best be described as Country Club society and raised as a female in that society well over half a century ago. It was utterly impossible for me to be the kind of person you are. It would have excluded me from society completely. There was a great differentiation between the sexes and what they wore, how they presented themselves and those who didn't conform were severly punished by society with being ostrcised being the mildest thing that happened. Sure some of the ranch women wore jeans-but not to town. Some farm women wore men's clothes - but never off the farm. No girl would have been allowed inside the school without a dress on. Though we were allowed to bring pants to wear under out dresses and skirts if we played sports. There was some degree of tolerance pre-puberty. You could be a tomboy and that was okay. The minute puberty hit that was done. And by 6th grade tomboys were not acceptable.

I would have loved to live your way. But I was stuck with a different reality so I made the best of it. I learned that there is power in being seen as beautiful. Denied the male power that felt like my natural herritage I discovered how to access and use the power of being a woman. Not sexually either. I enjoyed making up the face that was no longer my own and making a statement with how I dressed a body I had no real connection to. Like an art project. One that brought rewards.

I probably would have remained as masculine as possible given the choice and I am thankful that today there is more room for expression. That you could be who you were and follow the path that suited you.

That does mean that today people look and question. It never occurred to them before because no one was allowed to cross any of the lines. I think in the future we'll see people always looking more carefully as society becomes aware that they need to make more than an either/or choice. In the long run a good thing.

And all that stuff you don't want on T? I LOVE them and seek them. Celebrate them

Just the way the world rocks along.

I'm so glad there is room for all of us. And look forward to the day society really catches up.

Johnny

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Thank you Shy, Shilo, Drea and JJ ... I needed to vent ... And I needed to be heard by others who undrestand.

I think that moslty, I am self concious after the double mastectomy.

I actually look much better. People ( who don't even know that I have had the surgery) have commented on how healthy I look and that it seems that I have lost wieght. ) Well ... "yes and no." LOL. Funny, I am stil not getting the "Sirs" and I amat teh 3 week mark. People ( at markets etc.) are speaking to me in very gender nuetral terms.

My freinds think that my breasts may have been obscurring my shape since I wore somewhat baggy clothes to hide them and this may have caused me to look more stout and now, it is more obvious that I have hips. Also, emotionally, I think that I am feeling less gaurded and I am happier and smiling more. (I look more feminine when I smile.) Also, I am not in pain ... or at least, not in the same kind of pain that I was bearing before the surgery. My hair is slightly longer too ... just very short but not ultra short. I just haven't had the energy to cut it ... I cut it myslef. Anyway, people are reacting differently to me and I was not 100% perpared for this.

I guess, looking back, there has never been a time when my androgyny was really "no big deal" as I stated before ... but I feel like it was less of an issue about 10 years ago and that I either was percieved as male or as a lesbian ... this third possibility of being a trans man is very recent and I do think that it is due to trans awareness. I have flet this awareness over the last 3-5 years. Mostly, it is freinds (that are not in my close cirlcle but who are more than aquiantences) asking me to define myself in terms of gender. This has happended quite a bit after the surgery. It has not been a negative thing ... in fact, it has been kind of sweet ... freinds will tell me strories of times that they served as an ally to a trans person, or they will tell me of a trans cousin they love or a trans co-worker that they respect and then they will look at me .. smiling .. waiting politley .... as if they are expecting me to come out. This is despite the fact that they know my surgery was to treat severely cystic breasts. At this point, I explain my androgyny which feels odd becuse I have never felt the need to come out as androgynous before. I mean, I am so obviously androgynous that it is almost humorus to explain.

I feel like I am where I was in the early 90's marching in Orange County with ACT UP and other human rights groups. The first gay and lesbian center had been burned to the ground in the late 80's, people were harrassed regularly at gay bars and given tickets for lewd conduct if they were caught kissing ... yes, KISSING at the bars or in the parking lot ... I remember a couple was asked to leave restaraunt for kissing ( I think it was at Black Angus Steak House.) There were several gay bashings in the ealry 90's in Newport Beach... one girl was badly beaten just because she was sporting a short hair cut ... (she was actaully straight and it made the newspaper.) I was almost run down by a pick up truck with two young men iside who shouting the derragatory term for lesbian to me. My partner and I had bottles thrown from vehicles at us on several occassions and were spit upon ... the derrogatory name for gay men was used. M-E-M-O-R-I-E-S ...

So now, suddenly, I am quite visibly trans as I am not passing as well in either gender direction ... So far, it has been moslty hard stares and hushed whispers that I have noticed at cofffee houses and other public places. My androgyny both in physical anatomy, clothing and manner is controversial in a new way due to trans awareness. A few friends are worried about me getting hurt ... a freind told me today that 2 out of 3 trans people are bashed at some point in their lives. He sugested that maybe I could try to "fem up." NO WAY... as they used to say, "CLOSETS are for CLOTHES." I do look out for myslef though and I am careful in parking lots etc.

I will admit that I am not thrilled to be at the forefront of this fight ... especially when I thought that I was getting close to enjoying some rest ... but I suppose there is never time to rest with Human Rights activism. So ...I am here and I am honored to fight along side my sisters and brothers.

I am proud to do so. It is my hope that the world will be a safer place for the next generation. I do believe it is possible because I have seen much transformation happen for the gay and lesbian community in just 25 years. The struggle is worth it ... We shall overcome.

In Solidarity,

JB

[Guest Micha]

I'd like to look more androgynous, even if it put me at risk. Course it's easy to say, specially since it'll prolly never happen for me. . .

*ahem*

By default, simple, practicle. . . in all other words - natural. Yeah, totally there. I never felt my identity was political, or that I was being an activist. It's just who I am. Now who I am leads me to the political veiws I have, but it's an effect, not the cause (this is not a chicken/egg question).

Focus is shifting a bit, and awareness prolly has a lot to do with it. People are learning more, and that's how - talking about it more and asking about it more. I dunno if that means it's a bigger deal than it used to be, but it's certainly being talked about more and more.

I had more on my mind to share, but now I can't seem to put it all together.

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

Juniper Blue:

Rock on!

This is YOUR thread, so I won't say anything to "shanghi" it, but believe me, I KNOW what you mean! All I know is if you and I cruised a mall together, well, we wouldn't MAKE a scene, we'd BE a scene!!!

If I ever get to SoCal (which I'd LOVE to do!!!), you, your significant other and I gotta go to a mall in Major Androgyne Mode and just ROCK THAT PLACE!!!

In Solidarity Lacey Lynne

[Guest weather_rhythm]

I would have loved to live your way. But I was stuck with a different reality so I made the best of it. I learned that there is power in being seen as beautiful. Denied the male power that felt like my natural herritage I discovered how to access and use the power of being a woman. Not sexually either. I enjoyed making up the face that was no longer my own and making a statement with how I dressed a body I had no real connection to. Like an art project. One that brought rewards.

(off topic)

I really connected with that statement, JJ. I grew up in a different generation, a product of 80s-era small town folks who were neither country club nor impoverished--just middle class teachers. The fight against the feminine clothes and constrictions placed upon me was exhausting. Some battles won minor victories, such as the abolishment of tulle and lace (horrifying to my denim and cotton sensibilities) and others... let's just say that one day my favorite climbing tree's lowest branches had been surreptitiously cut down. Pine sap in a little girl's hair is too difficult to wash out, so eliminate the issue altogether! That was a sad day. I remember giving up the fight after that betrayal from my parents. But I too learned of the power of being seen as beautiful. I used my enforced gender as a tool of power and that old saying "fake it till you make it" was my mantra. though we may be from different generations, the pressure from society to conform is pervasive.

(on topic!)

back to the original question, do i feel androgynous by default? it's still an idea i need to allow to saturate, really sit with and peruse. i'm still questioning my gender identity, and i'm not one to rush into another label. but i do feel that whereas before beginning my gender journey i hadn't considered my appearance as an indicator of my chosen gender, but only an indicator of the people i wanted to attract. weird i know, but i had gotten to the point of an understanding chuckle and smile when someone presumed i was a lesbian. ("nah man, i dig guys, i just like being comfortable") i KNEW i was into men, but only got flustered when hit on by women. my flustering (flusterity?) i think stemmed from my never feeling completely comfortable around women who played into the typical gender roles of women. girly girls baffled me, didn't trust 'em. lesbians confused me--easy to talk to, but they typically wanted more and i wasn't down. only now am i actively thinking about how i present myself as a reflection of how i feel inside. and it's THIS that is throwing me for a loop. i don't feel i should present any differently, but now the option is being opened up and ... all these latent feelings and desires and yearnings to wear ties and cut my hair shorter is exciting. and scary. am i ready to get back in the fight?

-k