Men's Liberation Movement

[Guest Juniper Blue]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/world/tokyo-journal-teaching-japan-s-salarymen-to-be-their-own-men.html

This article is about Masayoshi Toyoda and the Men's Liberation Movement which he founded in 1995, in Japan.

Does the world need a men's liberation movement? If so, what woudl this look like in your country, in your community, in your life? ( regardless of your gender) What social changes might come as the results of such a movement?

I'm leaving this question open and broad so as to make it possible for all perspectives to be explored. I will post my own opinion after several posts are established.

All gender categories are invited to answer. Hey, does this feel like a Gender Studies Quiz?? LOL ... please have fun with it.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Wow ... 42 views and zero replies ...

Okay ... I will take the lead and go first.

I think that the feminist movement opened up possibilities for both women and men and created room for re-evaluating gender dynamics and individual choices. I think that a Mens' Liberation Movement could function in much the same way.

I think that if men could re-define masculinity to encompass the full range of the human experience, our society might see an new generation of men emerge who are unafraid to express their feelings, are not valued according to their profession/income, spend more time with their families, and enjoy a better quality of life overall. Additionally, I feel that if society supported boys and men in developing stable mental/emotional health this would decrease male violence in general.

Ultimately, I would like to see a merging of Feminism with Men's Liberation in the form of general Human Rights Coalition with continuing forums to address individual needs of various groups that meet separately and jointly to work together in addressing the collective needs of all.

Hey .... I'm just gonna' put this one out there ...

JB

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Interesting article Juniper.

I find it so interesting that economic changes precipitate social changes and awareness. How I wish it were the other way around.

I think it is clear that the dynamics of the social prescribed roles of men and women regarding expectations from society, work and family will evolve to an egalitarian level. The balance between individual life and the life needed to sustain and grow corporations, countries, and society as a whole will become more centered. To be healthy as a culture, a nation, a company, the individual must be healthy. Everyone counts. Men and women all share in the emotional balance of our world.

Love

Brenda

[Guest Alder]

Though I didn't read the article, I'll join in (my brain is hurty from screen time me thinks) I have a friend who lives right up north of me in Canada who's a mens right activist so I get to hear a goodly amount about the movement and such.. oh all the tumblr posts!

Personally I feel that he can go to extremes with things, but being a person in which extremes are almost a foriegn concept I find many people go to extremes... I've heard a lot of good points from him though, on how a lot of the feminist movement goals have become well... a down right hate group. To this I agree. My friend has been forced to sit through classes for womens self defence(as he is a transman) at his highschool where they have flatly told the girls and him that all men are rapists and other extremest methods of trying to "empower" girls into believing they are the higher gender.

There are the anti-rape campaigns which, often completely ignore the fact that males also get raped, females can be rapists and that it's something in which females have to take no responcibility in, even if the woman was walking through a park at midnight by herself after warnings of a serial rapist was around. It's a topic which I know is touchy, I know that women aren't to blame for being raped but I also know that there are many many false rape accusations which send innocent men to jail to live under threat of being killed for their 'crimes' because of having a finger pointed at them unjustly..

I believe that if we can pull the extremist which have forgotten the basic tenents of equality from their soap boxes, and yes get all genders working together as humans and not view eachother with suspicion that this world will be much better. We are all created equal, with an equal capacity for feeling and thought(okay, some more than others), the only things which keep us seperated are stigmas which we as humans have placed on nature and no single person should be signled out due to a difference in body shape or mental compacity.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Excellent points Alder! Great contribution Brenda!

I have several male friends who survived domestic violence in which their Mother played a a major role and I have two friends who were sexually abused as boys (by men that they trusted. ) I am sure other men that I know have been abused but never discuss this. It seems that when men and boys are the targets of abuse, as in the most recent case with the famous football coach, the abuse often goes unreported. Certainly, this happens with girls as well but it seems that the boys are vulnerable in similar ways and in possibly different ways as well. I have read that parents are less vigilant in protecting boys form sexual abuse and may inadvertently, put boys in situations that would be deemed unsafe for girls. Men also have more difficulty accessing resources for help in cases of domestic violence and sexual abuse. For instance, the local shelter in my community welcomes battered men but I am not certain that men feel safe going to these shelters. There are so many other issues like homelessness and child custody rights and breast cancer, where men have less access to public assistance and programs. I do feel that one of the key focuses needed to provide support for boys and men is to make resources equally accessible to those in need ( regardless of gender).

The Feminist movement has done much to improve the lives of women, children and in many ways, men but it needs to do more to take responsibility and address "female" violence and abuse of power (including sexual violence against boys and men and false accusations toward men.) The women's liberation movement must address these issues of women's abuse of power over men as firmly as it addresses issues of male abuse of power.

I would ultimately like to see a Human Rights Movement where issues are not broken down in to "Men's issues and "Women's" issues but are seen as "Human" issues. Again, there is value in having separate forums but it is critical that the forums work together to ensure a balanced, equitable, and healthy society.

Best to All,

JB

[Guest Micha]

I liked the article, and I can appreciate what Toyoda is saying and what he wants to accomplish. It's not unlike Jeff Perera and the white ribbon campaign's "what makes a man? A higher unlearning."

Very valid points on how men have traditionally neglected a very important part of their own human nature. Compassion, companionship, love and family are important for everyone, regardless of gender.

The effect jobs and work have had on people in the respect are monumental (couldn't resist). Used to be just husbands, now it's both partners, both parents, spending mass amounts of time away from eachother and their families, working themselves to their limits just to make ends meet. Too much time away from home, away from those things we need most, and being too burnt out from overworking ourselves to enjoy our time at home, all that leads to very unhealthy living.

There's also the social effects of these traditions, including gender based discrimination. Sexism, homophobia, gender based violence - past traditions play a role here too. Reversing these trends by "unlearning" and redefining men's roles in society would be a positive step, I think.

Personally though I'd like to remove the gender aspect from it. Eventually I think this could lead to that. With talk of communication, sharing feelings, paternal leave and quality family time vs work time, I feel people will forget about what seperated men and women in the first place - and will only see the strictly biological differences. I'd like a more direct route, but I'll take any small victories too.

There are the anti-rape campaigns which, often completely ignore the fact that males also get raped, females can be rapists and that it's something in which females have to take no responcibility in, even if the woman was walking through a park at midnight by herself after warnings of a serial rapist was around. It's a topic which I know is touchy, I know that women aren't to blame for being raped but I also know that there are many many false rape accusations which send innocent men to jail to live under threat of being killed for their 'crimes' because of having a finger pointed at them unjustly..

I don't disagree with you, but I do feel the reference to a woman walking alone at night should be adressed. As you said, it is never the victims fault. However, talk of how women shouldn't walk alone at night, or drink too much with strangers, or wear revealing clothing, all that like, does lead to victim blaming (speciall emphasis on leads). It implies that it's the victims responsibility to avoid rape and takes responsibility off the rapist. Thing is, you can't know who's going to rape you, and circumstances like settings, clothes or behavior does no determine who gets raped. Example - One woman had two experiences. One was at home while wearing ugly sweatpants and an old oversized shirt, the other was at a club wearing a miniskirt and cleavage revealing shirt. One experience involved her getting raped, and it turns out it had nothing to do with her clothes or where she was, but with the presence of a rapist. She ended up safer at the club than she did at home. Walking alone at night isn't going to get someone raped. Being alone with a rapist, that will - but how do you know who would to rape you? It's not always obvious.

What I'm trying to say? (I know I'm kinda going off about this) Telling women (or men, or any other could be victims) not to get raped is not only ineffective, but actually hurts the victim when it comes to filing charges, prosecution and justice - it leads more to victim blaming. I learned this one the hard way. Solutions? Dunno, really, but it has to be about would be rapists, and not about would be victims. Not man shaming, not overlooking the facts (men are victims too, women can be rapists, more people get raped by someone they know than by strangers, etc.), just straight up, cold hard education at the very least.

I feel that ending gender stereotypes would be at least one thing we can do to have an impact on this front. Movements like the one mentioned above would help too.

[Guest Alder]

I don't disagree with you, but I do feel the reference to a woman walking alone at night should be adressed. As you said, it is never the victims fault. However, talk of how women shouldn't walk alone at night, or drink too much with strangers, or wear revealing clothing, all that like, does lead to victim blaming (speciall emphasis on leads). It implies that it's the victims responsibility to avoid rape and takes responsibility off the rapist. Thing is, you can't know who's going to rape you, and circumstances like settings, clothes or behavior does no determine who gets raped. Example - One woman had two experiences. One was at home while wearing ugly sweatpants and an old oversized shirt, the other was at a club wearing a miniskirt and cleavage revealing shirt. One experience involved her getting raped, and it turns out it had nothing to do with her clothes or where she was, but with the presence of a rapist. She ended up safer at the club than she did at home. Walking alone at night isn't going to get someone raped. Being alone with a rapist, that will - but how do you know who would to rape you? It's not always obvious.

What I'm trying to say? (I know I'm kinda going off about this) Telling women (or men, or any other could be victims) not to get raped is not only ineffective, but actually hurts the victim when it comes to filing charges, prosecution and justice - it leads more to victim blaming. I learned this one the hard way. Solutions? Dunno, really, but it has to be about would be rapists, and not about would be victims. Not man shaming, not overlooking the facts (men are victims too, women can be rapists, more people get raped by someone they know than by strangers, etc.), just straight up, cold hard education at the very least.

I feel that ending gender stereotypes would be at least one thing we can do to have an impact on this front. Movements like the one mentioned above would help too.

I didn't mean to make it so tilted towards victim blaming, as I know it's not the victims fault and most often such things occur when one is with someone they trust, closing makes no difference even location is very minimal.... I'll probably just end up rambling if I continue... but yes.... Education is very needed, and not just about how to avoid, but what really happens... who is hurt and the entire bucket of 'fun' -last word dripping with sarcasim-

[Guest chngnwnd]

Well I must concede that rules for male self expression are kind of rigid in a cultural since. As a woman, I feel that there is a much wider range of socially acceptable behavior and dress to me.

Bobbi

[Guest Micha]

I didn't mean to make it so tilted towards victim blaming, as I know it's not the victims fault and most often such things occur when one is with someone they trust, closing makes no difference even location is very minimal.... I'll probably just end up rambling if I continue... but yes.... Education is very needed, and not just about how to avoid, but what really happens... who is hurt and the entire bucket of 'fun' -last word dripping with sarcasim-

You didn't.

See, I rambled, kinda got carried away. Jus' tryin to share a point some folks had to share with me. Even good intentions can be counter productive. I was talkin once about avoiding rape, and I got nailed. Hard. Took a while for me to understand why, but reading posts shared by slutwalk's facebook page really put things in perspective. There should be nothing to avoid, and avoidance tactics are misplaced efforts, distracting from the real problem.

But I said enough. Go on and ramble, I did it to you - fair's fair.

Bobbi,

Tha's certainly true. I'd love to take a brick to the "socially acceptable" window.

[Cyndee]

Well I must concede that rules for male self expression are kind of rigid in a cultural since. As a woman, I feel that there is a much wider range of socially acceptable behavior and dress to me.

Bobbi

just my .02

I agree with Bobbi.

Men are smothered, boxed in, and have too rigid comformity to uphold, it's terrible, and they have done it to themselves over 1000's of years of believing and taking action based on the belief they were the superior to women. Now we have rising women in the world, and suddenly a man's movement is needed to counter it, I just scratch my head, hmmmm. Better let go of the past men and break down these these barriers and expectations of being male. Then real change will happen and balance restored.

My self I had to escape these shackles and burdens for my own sanity.

Cindy -

[Guest Luna Selene]

Being a man, and a very issues-conscious one at that, I have long known the plight of women. I agree with the empowering change of the sixties and seventies, and I appreciate the great leaps in equality that were made. However growing up in the nineties, women had already won that battle, yet people kept reenforcing the belief even then. I never discriminated against women, however they all made me feel like I had when the topic was brought up. I think our culture (In America) has been so proud of it's achievements that it has switched into reverse-sexism. I remember working at an ice cream store, where I was one of three males out of 12 employees. When asked why the new batch of recruits were two males and six females, I was told that "people react better to women, they don't feel as intimidated and women have a hard time finding work anyways." My boss was of course, a woman. A harder time finding work? REALLY? I have been turned down to places because they were looking for female employees. I have been told that my job search was justified, because men made more than women anyways. REALLY??

You would swear that the people I talked to were from that era. But they aren't. They are just using data and catchphrases from a time of struggle to make their current era feel like it's meant for them. I've heard teenage girls talk about female liberation with stars in their eyes, only to turn around and perputuate the gender stereotypes that evolved from a male dominated society. When I called them out on it, I was accused, (and sadly the label actually stuck in highscool) of being a masogynst. From that, I have been trained to feel that because I am a man (a white man at that) I am guilty of centuries of hatred and maltreatment of others. I need to just sit back quietly and let people do what ever they want. I find that rude. Feminism is the idea that females are the dominant species. I don't believe that, I believe in equalism. I don't think we need a men's movement, it would just be cheap and unsuccessful. We need to realize that there is no difference between men and women. They should be paid the same, not because one is a woman and the other isn't, but because they are working. Truthfully, I haven't EVER seen a difference in pay scale for equal work. I don't think it's happening anymore, considering the laws in place to prevent it. None-the-less it is still a common day feminist argument.

I'm afraid that a "mens liberation movement" would either become an object of ridicule, or will just perpetuate these problems but from the other side of the spectrum. We don't need to have an uprising from every group to establish it as legitamate, we need tolerance and understanding from the populus. A men's movement I think will only set us (as men, as transgender, or as Androgynous) back to those times. Times of seperation and discrimination. What we need is an equalist movement. An all encompassing, global movement that requires fair treatment for all walks of life. By excluding others, (ie MENS movement) we only continue those seperaterationist ideals.

Equality.

Equality.

Equality.

Sounds good, don't it?

_l

[JJ]

Sadly the disparity in income and pay for job is still very real according to all the statistics. You can find them on government sites. They aren't women's lib. propaganda. There is still a very real glass ceiling. We pay lip service to equality-even to the extent that male bashing is considered funny where female bashing is now unacceptable-but the good old boys didn't get where they are by being dumb. They still retain all the power they had.

Doesn't make male bashing any more acceptable.

And perhaps we are also to some extent fighting reality and evolution in these equality battles. Women are physiologically different from men. T has shown me beyond question just how great the difference in strength and endurance really is. BUT I think if a woman can do the job she should have equal consideration and equal pay. But she should also be able to equally do the job.

As a male feminist I'd like to say women and men are equal in every way but realistically they evolved fulfilling different roles and developed different natural abilities and I think society will have real problems unless that is recognized and taken into account. But different doesn't have to, and shouldn't, mean unequal.

Unequal pay though fosters that inequality. Money is power. The old culture I was raised in where women were not allowed to work but protected by and provided for by men also served to keep them powerless and dependent. We've come a long way from there for the most part-but we still have a long way to go according to anybody's wage statistics.

Johnny

[Guest Micha]

_I, Luna,

I respect you, I love you (and I don't say it lightly), and I know a lot goes into everything you do.

(you can just feel a "but" coming on, can't you?)

(not yet)

There has been a lot of extremism involved in the womens' rights movement. That's true for affirmative action, and pretty much any minority led movement in history, or at least any that's made waves. Even today my mother in law claims homosexuals are taking over. We all know tha's just media hype BS. But I don't disagree that individuals have taken advantage of their apparent "minority" status to serve their own individual ideals. That's not the minority talkin, tha's the individual talkin.

So your work experience was of a woman taking advantage of a feminist movement to discriminate against men. Tha's not okay, and I completely feel you on your calls for equallity.

But (oh shi. . . there it is) things have never been equall, and no, the womens' rights movement has not won. The point has not been proven. Equallity has not been acheived, let alone over-reached.

First, personal experience, here in not so big CO (our state capital has just over an eighth the population of LA). My co worker got fired cuz she had a medically enforced weight limit. The male she replaced couldn't lift as much as her limit was, and couldn't for some time. He never got "released." They waited till he retired. However, when it was "Brought to their attention" that she couldn't lift as much as she used to (which was more than a "he" could before retirement), she was "let go," ie booted into unemployement with no recourse, reconcilliation or any protections to her or her family whatsoever. This BS happens to workers all over the country, male or female, because the almighty employers are always lookin for ways to cut expenses, and in most cases, employees' wages are the highest expenses any company has. But in this case, she was a woman who had a doc's note sayin she couldn't lift 2x as much as any employee (and this isn't third person info, I know what it takes to do her job, I know the people WE were working for, and the men that fired her don't do even half as much as the minimum she was percsribed to do) and she got fired? Please try and make this out to be anyting else than sexism, I would trully appreciate it if you could take the sting away from this.

That's one experience, from a state with a smaller population. I'd like to think it just happens where there's not places with multiple cities of more than one million pop each.

But (damn, again?). . .

I read too many stories of women raped in big cities, and even the police, a public organization meant to "serve and protect," judges and prosecuters blame the victims for their rape? Why? Because she's her rapist's equal? Because men don't come forward and go public with their rapes, so women should just be quiet and take it? And if public officialls propagate this BS, you can imagine what this is gonna do to promote an already existing attitude about women. And where's this come from? Women aren't raped for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, they aren't raped because they failed to follow the rules of not getting raped, it's not like this just happens. And though I know men get raped too, check the stats for yourself (9 of every 10 victims are female, and considereing not every woman reports her rape, it's a huge stretch to make the numbers "equal" - http://www.rainn.org/ ). Without victim blaming at all, there's still a huge amount of gender based violence with women being the victims (remember, I'm spotting rape, but that aint all of it). If the feminists had there way, this would not be happening, and it is. Maybe extremists want revenge, maybe extremists want all men to be subservient, but that is not happening en masse. The womens rights movement isn't a complete success, just like the emancipation proclimation was not the end of racism, and like racism, it will take time (civil war end of the 19th century, civil rights movement 1960's, racism still alive in the 21st century. . . and white vs black racism began in the 16th century, 500 years ago).

Point? It's not man shaming, it's not to make the white male to feel like everything's his fault. It's to point out that equality still does not exist, not for sexes, genders or races. It's not the fault of every white male who lives today, but it is the responsibility of every living, breathing human being who exists today. Is it unfair for us who haven't hurt anyone? Maybe. Is it fair to the poor black girl who's dealing with centuries of hate based on her race and her sex? No. Tha's life, it aint about justifying things today, it's about making them fair from here on out.

None of us asked for this crap. But we all have to live with it. And only we can change it. Screw the standard, screw the norm and screw the traditions of divisional hate. Screw all of them. This is our life, this is our time. screw them, le's make it right for us!

Luna, your manager was wrong, but not because she was a feminist (she obviously misunderstood the movement), it was because she was a manager, had power and exploited it, leaving other people unemployed - not on the basis of their qualifications, but on the basis of their gender. If she wasn't a woman, maybe she wouldn't have done that. . . but maybe a man would have, and maybe for exploitational reasons of his own, who knows - individuals and case by case. Fact is the movements are still needed, even if there are white males today who aren't racist, sexist homophobes. There's still too many out there who are, and there's still too much power in the hands of the exploitational, and tools like racism, sexism and homophobia and transphobia are used by "them" to keep we the people, the majority, divided, and prevent us from claiming our rights in a democracy.

I don't want you to feel guilty cuz of your skin, genitals or any other such BS. I know that feeling, and I resented it too. But I've come to understand the true nature of the movements, and it's not to shame men, to hate white people or anything like that. That's not the case at all (but today's right wing extremists want you to think that).

I want it all gone, every line of division, every line between "us" and "them," all that. But I can't pretend they don't exist today. They're abused today, at the expense of human lives, liberty and well being. there are divisions, but they're not where we're meant to believe. The divisions are between the ruling class and the exploited, and the exploited will be crippled and helpless until we stop fighting amongst ourselves. I'd like to think it's enough for your average person to say, "cool, women should make as much as men, no prob," but it's not. Even when women make as much or more as their male coworkers, they can still be exploited, from heavier workloads to being expected to wear half length skirts and high heels. It's a much deeper and complex problem than wages. We have got to make things right within ourselves if ever we hope to force reconcilliation with the exploitational ruling class.

It don't come easy, and idealism dies at inaction.

Yeah, I went off. Feeling emotional, had somethin to say, and at the very least I was honest. No disrespect, jus an over explination (cuz I dunno how to simplify it and keep the message) of how I feel about feminism, civil rights and any other movement that challenges "them."

[Guest Luna Selene]

No offense taken. I'm glad we can talk.

I think we all got a little off topic though, if I may swing it back to the intial post. I think the main idea to understand is that this movement worked (or has been working, rather) for the Japanese men, because it catered to them. It focuses on what they find the issue; lack of communication and involvement in family due to social image and duty. Their movement was simply to make it acceptable to be a family man. I really appreciate this.

Secondly, my previous post wasn't completely thought out all the way before I sent it. *shakes a fist at empty coffee mug* I wasn't quite awake enough to realize I probably should have edited it. It wasn't quite the idea that I wanted to get out, the one I had formed the night before. I apologize if I seemed insensitive or ignorant. I know there is still a lot of unfairness in the workplace. The girls I mentioned, however lived where I did, in spoiled upper middle class suburbia. These girls didn't really have a concept of the real world. I know the girls I was talking to, they hadn't picked up a non-school assigned book if they could help it. The facts and figures they "quoted" to me didn't line up with their own arguments, and fluctuated upon mood. I'm sorry if it came out that I was bashing feminist, I just got caught up in the mood I got from dealing with these girls and their archetype before. I certainly do not want to make any generalizations. And that was pretty much what I should have said before.

Take care,

_L