Discrimination within the LGBT bracket

[Guest onlyhuman]

Do you feel that trans people recive isolation and discrimination within the already 'othered' 'box' of the LGBT community?

[Guest Mia J]

I think we are sometimes like the poor step kids in the GLBT community. There have been those GLB who have opposed us even being associated with them. But I think the support is getting better and I think there is more acceptance now then there was in the past.

With any community as diverse as the GLBT there will always be those who think they are more deserving than others.

Mia

[Carolyn Marie]

It all depends on how you define "isolation and discrimination" in my opinion. The LGBT Community is not of one mind on anything, not even what and who is included in the "Community," so trying to answer your question is a complex problem.

Are there LGB folks who don't like the T folks and would rather we not be included? Yup. Are there LGB folks who are completely supportive, friendly, and inclusive? Yup. Have I met both? Yup. Happily, there seems more of the latter by a good measure, at least around these parts.

HUGS

Carolyn Maire

[Guest onlyhuman]

Thanks for replying

It is indeed a complex topic, iv decided to focus my undergraduate dissertation on this topic because i feel it is under-researched

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Dear Only Human,

I think that more needs to be done to educate the LGBT community regarding the needs of people who trans gendered within the community. Understanding is the root of respect and inclusion. I do think that it is getting better ... but we have so very far to go.

Hugs,

JB

[Guest LauraJen]

I think it's worryingly common. I've heard of some L, G and T people call people who identify as bisexual "half gay" or in denial and can't make up their minds what they are. The same thing can happen with homosexual people and trans people - trans people can be seen as gay and we're transitioning in order to escape being gay and become straight.

It's awful, really, but the sad reality is: if you're trans and you know someone who is or accepts the concept of being gay - don't assume they'll be on your side when you come out to them.

...sorry to be the voice of doom, here!

Laura Jen

[Guest Shari]

And not to forget, even in the TG community there can be divisions.

Shari

[Carolyn Marie]

And not to forget, even in the TG community there can be divisions.

Shari

Gosh, who would have thunk it?

Carolyn Marie

[Guest RoyJP]

I do find it a bit odd to group them together. LGB are sexual orientations which is different than gender identity. I am trans and gay.

[Guest]

Welcome to LP, RoyJP.

I noticed this was your first post here.

Try to work your way over to the Introductions Forum and introduce yourself.

I hope you find what you seek here on LP.

Huggs,

Joann

[Guest Carla_Davis]

Sadly, I received more prejudice from the Trans Community than by LGB folks.

[Guest CassieX]

Sadly, I received more prejudice from the Trans Community than by LGB folks.

I had a little chuckle when I read that one Carla, as it reminded me of an experience I had a couple of months ago at my local support group. One of the older ladies proceeded to lecture me during a break on how my gait was totally wrong, my interpretation of what it meant to transition was wrong because I had dared contradict her in group and that I should read her blog, blah blah!... I blinked quite a bit during that break.

One positive did come out of it though. I was more than a little upset over the gait comments as I have a slight hitch in my step due to a childhood injury. It prompted me to share the negative experience in group at my Transgender Voice and Communication course that I attend at my local university and they incorporated female gait into our lesson plan. Nowadays I am much more confident.

One of the most inspirational videos I've watched online that still brings tears to my eyes every time I see it is, "I want to know what it's like" which was a promotional video for the 2nd class citizen campaign for gay rights. Watching that video really brought home to me the whole LGBT struggle for acceptance in today's society although it weirdly did not include any Transgender speakers. I remember reading a lot of people asking the director why he had excluded us but I don't ever remember seeing a reply why.

But really, it doesn't matter, as I've nevertheless drawn strength and inspiration from the message, even if it wasn't entirely meant for me.

Hugs,

Cassie

[Guest Bellexia]

Yes it will happen, unfortunately, however that's just a part of human nature. I've dealt with it in the tg group as well, you have the true transsexual mentality where only those with surgery and finished with their transition are true women, you have the age gap where some older trans claim that the newer generation doesn't deal with the stuff they did, you have all kinds. Best thing to do is just ignore them, no reason to give that kind of thought any attention.

[Guest Jay Smooth]

I really dont like being grouped with gays and lesbians, Yes its a part of nature, Ive been discriminated against for being a christian and transgender and even bcause I dont really support homosexuality, But I accept that as long as your happy

[Guest ivana]

I am in complete agreement with Laura Jay.

I've heard the same sort of things said,ie:"trans people can't admit they are gay."

I have gay and lesbian friends who accept me,but we all see that trans-women are very different to gay men.

[Guest ivana]

Apologies to Laura Jen.

I called you Laura Jay.oops.

[Guest LauraJen]

Apologies to Laura Jen.

I called you Laura Jay.oops.

:-) No worries. "Jay" is my middle initial (J) so it's still ok in a way. It's just my first name and the first syllable of my middle name. You would be surprised how many people would see my username and call me Lauren - a name that is very high up on my list, but not quite mine.

Something I didn't mention here is how some people can be transphobic because they are in fact trans themselves and are in denial. By being transphobic they put distance between themselves and the trans label, as if trying to convince themselves into being cis. It makes them feel better in themselves. I can understand the train of thought here, but obviously it's still not great.

This can happen between any part of the LGBT community, not just trans people. Like I said, I've seen "half-gay" used to describe bisexual people for example, or they are gay and don't want to admit it, or that they can't make up their minds (or greedy - that's one that gets to me in particular).

Of course, being trans and being gay are two things that are often conflated. That probably doesn't help.

Can't we all just get along?

you have the true transsexual mentality where only those with surgery and finished with their transition are true women, you have the age gap where some older trans claim that the newer generation doesn't deal with the stuff they did

About the first point - this is a good one that I have often received as well. My dad's not in any way LGBT, but he likely has this mentality, as he still often calls me a man (or a bloke, a word that makes me shudder) and makes references to "manning up" and "growing a pair" and I have been out to him for eight years.

Secondly, the age gap. I once attended a meeting for trans people as part of some event and an older person totally laid into me for no apparent reason. She quite clearly had it in for younger transitioners, and I regret not standing up for myself. Yes, it might be unfair that they had it worse than us, and I do genuinely feel sorry for them and I realise fully how much that sucks, but older trans people should really be pleased that times are changing, and that they have left behind a better world for us. Maybe older trans people feel we take it for granted too much, which may be true for some. We should never forget that the world has changed for the better because of the people who were brave enough to raise awareness, become activists and stand up and be counted. We owe a lot to older trans people.

[Charlize]

I attended a sort of coming out party at my university. When i was a student there was absolutely no acceptance and being either gay or trans could mean death. That being said it was great. 600 of us in the GLBT community came back and we did seminars, workshops and attended lectures on some fascinating subjects. The university wined and dined us. The risers on the school stairs throughout the campus had been painted with the rainbow. Amazing. Out of the 600 folks 13 of us were trans. We are a minority and as such often a weaker, misunderstood, little sibling. The nice thing was the others were trying to understand. That is a tendency i have found in the GLBT community. We are not embraced by all but some gays dislike lesbians and visa versa. So whats new. It is getting so much better and i'm glad to be a little sister to my big GLB community.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Guest Raven Moon]

trans people can be seen as gay and we're transitioning in order to escape being gay and become straight.

So then in my case I'd be transitioning from being straight to being a lesbian?

Sexual preference and gender identity aren't necessarily linked.

But I guess some people see it that way.

So I think just because people identify as L, G, or B, they often have little in common with trans people, since their's is a sexual preference and ours is a gender preference. They can over lap, but not every time.

[KathrynJulia]

The other day the Society of Medical Students conducted a lecture on Treating Transgendered Patients in which I was asked to participate. Out of the 25 people who attended, I personally know that 8 are either lesbian or gay and they were very supportive of better healthcare outcomes for all LGBT patients. But they also understand how difficult it is for transgendered patients to obtain decent healthcare in small, isolated and mostly rural communities.

Most of the participants were medical students who will change the thinking of tomorrows medicine towards all LGBT patients in this country. I'm feeling good about the future from what I've seen. I've seen nothing but good things from our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers. Kathy

[Guest LauraJen]

trans people can be seen as gay and we're transitioning in order to escape being gay and become straight.

So then in my case I'd be transitioning from being straight to being a lesbian?

Sexual preference and gender identity aren't necessarily linked.

But I guess some people see it that way.

So I think just because people identify as L, G, or B, they often have little in common with trans people, since their's is a sexual preference and ours is a gender preference. They can over lap, but not every time.

I was using the term gay to include all genders. Some gay women actually hate the word lesbian and stick to calling themselves gay. Which is fair enough - it seems a bit odd to have a separate label for women when we are talking about exactly the same thing.

I just said this about transitioning to become straight because I live with my extremely transphobic mother and she is convinced that this is what I am doing, despite the fact that I first came out at age 10 saying to someone that I was going to have a "sex change" (it was a long time ago, I didn't know it as anything else and this was before I even started using the Internet). At that age I wasn't interested in relationships at all. At 23 I still don't know for sure what my sexuality is and I have a pretty low desire for sexual relationships anyway. The gay thing with mum was not helped by me once saying I thought I was gay to try to come up with an excuse for going to an LGBT event because I thought she would take it better. She did once say "OK, you might turn out to be gay, it doesn't matter".

Then you can have ageism in the trans community, such as between people who transitioned early and those that transitioned late, or simply between the young and the old. Not saying it happens here, but I have been on the receiving end of this before elsewhere despite the fact that at the time I was presenting completely male and I was pre-everything (I still am now). I think sometimes people can get jealous of people that transitioned decades before them, or that the world is a more accepting place now than it was back in their day so younger generations "have it easy", which is sad because the older generations should feel good about having left behind a better world for future generations. Sometimes we don't get taken seriously because we don't have as much life experience or we haven't given enough consideration to things like starting a family (something I've gotten before as well, I know who I am, the last thing I want to do is become a husband and a dad and have kids). But age discrimination has been discussed widely in a couple of other threads so I won't go into loads of detail here.

Thankfully, the attitudes of those on Laura's are considerably better. But it can happen and I have said before that when I reach the age of 26 and I become too old for youth groups, I will not be progressing to support groups for older people.

[Guest LauraJen]

trans people can be seen as gay and we're transitioning in order to escape being gay and become straight.

So then in my case I'd be transitioning from being straight to being a lesbian?

Sexual preference and gender identity aren't necessarily linked.

But I guess some people see it that way.

So I think just because people identify as L, G, or B, they often have little in common with trans people, since their's is a sexual preference and ours is a gender preference. They can over lap, but not every time.

Sorry I just posted here and think I misunderstood you - I misread and thought you said that in your case you were a lesbian and transitioning to become straight! Don't think I'm awake enough to post in these forums yet!

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

It all depends on how you define "isolation and discrimination" in my opinion. The LGBT Community is not of one mind on anything, not even what and who is included in the "Community," so trying to answer your question is a complex problem.

Are there LGB folks who don't like the T folks and would rather we not be included? Yup. Are there LGB folks who are completely supportive, friendly, and inclusive? Yup. Have I met both? Yup. Happily, there seems more of the latter by a good measure, at least around these parts.

HUGS

Carolyn Maire

Totally!

This has been my experience too. Carolyn Marie has got that right, I'd totally say.

Just a thought:

A few years ago, Moderator Megan Rose and her significant other/soulmate/what have you came to Portlandia to specifically take me to Portland Pride that year. Well, that was my first-ever pride event and LGBT event of any magnitude, mind you. Well, at one point, we're watching and grooving to the hoopla, delirium and joy. Then, Megan turns to me in her mellow, spacy way and simply says,

"You know, we (trans) are the ONLY ones who basically give up sex (in many cases) to achieve our true identities. With the LGB, it's all ABOUT the sex!"

Well, I was simply shell-shocked and rendered speechless by that! Anybody who knows me will admit THAT'S mightly rare: To render me speechless. PROFOUND, MEGAN! How very true, at least for many of we older transfolk!

My opinion that what The Trans Community needs is basically our Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., our Harvey Milk, our point person, if you will. Somebody needs to come along with the passion and mental and verbal firepower to articulate our position. Finally, that person will need to be charismatic and open.

Eventually, somebody like that will come along. When they do, stand by! Hooha!

[Guest LizMarie]

There are some charismatic people, Lacey, such as Janet Mock and Kristin Beck and many others. But being charismatic isn't enough when a segment of society has as its objective scapegoating you and blacklisting you.

If you want to understand the bigoted nonsense going on right now, just go to Google and search for 1950s homosexual warning videos and then sit back and watch. You'll recognize what's going on immediately. Labeled broadly as all being "predators" seeking to "prey on children" and being a "choice" from which someone can be "cured" - it's all the same dialog, the same witch hunt, and it's their second go-round here, with them having already lost the GLB wars and that's slowly sliding into their rear view mirrors. They're being forced to accept GLB equality because most of the rest of the country is there already. But T equality? Oh no! This is the "last stand" for "civilization"! All the same slippery slope arguments, all the same framing tactics, all the same smears. Only this time we have more support than GLBT folks did in the 1950s.

So charisma is not enough. The public generally has to be ready for it and while things are improving, I'm not sure the general public is really ready yet.

[Guest Lacey Lynne]

There are some charismatic people, Lacey, such as Janet Mock and Kristin Beck and many others. But being charismatic isn't enough when a segment of society has as its objective scapegoating you and blacklisting you.

If you want to understand the bigoted nonsense going on right now, just go to Google and search for 1950s homosexual warning videos and then sit back and watch. You'll recognize what's going on immediately. Labeled broadly as all being "predators" seeking to "prey on children" and being a "choice" from which someone can be "cured" - it's all the same dialog, the same witch hunt, and it's their second go-round here, with them having already lost the GLB wars and that's slowly sliding into their rear view mirrors. They're being forced to accept GLB equality because most of the rest of the country is there already. But T equality? Oh no! This is the "last stand" for "civilization"! All the same slippery slope arguments, all the same framing tactics, all the same smears. Only this time we have more support than GLBT folks did in the 1950s.

So charisma is not enough. The public generally has to be ready for it and while things are improving, I'm not sure the general public is really ready yet.

AGREED!

Rock On Lacey Lynne