What Makes A "girl"?

[Guest Jackie]

I have been doing some studying of women in pictures. Both professional (actressess and the like) and the Jane Q. Publics. I have used programs to edit the pictures trying to find what attributes makes the person I am looking at a man or a woman. I am having alot of trouble deciphering my findings as with each picture I manipulate, a different item will be the key for that picture.

I would like to get your opinions and see if there is a consensus as to what makes a person a woman. I would really love to see this thread go in depth as I am really interested in seeing the results.

My method... I google a head shot of a subject... then edit the picture using paintshop pro. change the brows, hair, nose, whatever comes to mind. I always only change one thing at a time then go back to the original pic. i then use two at a time... Trying to approach this scientifically, tho ultimatly it is very subjective.

I might try a survey to see what others think... so... let me know what you think as a first step.

Love and Hugs

Jackie

[Guest NickSister]

I suspect this sort of thing has already been done. It probably all comes down to ratios of features in relation to each other - you may need to analyse pictures collectively.

I did a quick google and found this

http://www.beautyanalysis.com/mba_facevari...sbysex_page.htm

could be of interest to you.

[Guest Jackie]

Thanks NickSister,

I knew there was some of that out there.. Thanks for finding it. With a little PSP manipulation I already see some of the characteristics. it was very helpful

Jackie

[Guest Robyn]

Ok, here's my two cents worth. For the sake of refraining from over analyzing the situation, let me put it in simple terms. It's all about attitude and how you present yourself. Add some visual stimulus and you have a good resemblance of the target gender. Then the voice is the cherry on top.

[Guest elenag]

Ok, here's my two cents worth. For the sake of refraining from over analyzing the situation, let me put it in simple terms. It's all about attitude and how you present yourself. Add some visual stimulus and you have a good resemblance of the target gender. Then the voice is the cherry on top.

I think skin texture and fat pattern are a very important aspects. I tend to look at women's shoulders a lot (always comparing), and no matter how they vary in width or depth, it's always skin texture that's the strong differentiator. Female skin is just smoother.

I also believe voice is more than a finishing touch. A lot of MTFs I meet in person or on chat overlook the importance of voice. I can tell when they speak. Practicing is dull, boring, and often unrewarded, but I think it's critical. For that reason, I practice a lot in voice chat rooms with non-TG people with a non-gender specific chat name. When I don't pass they tell me and when I do, I can tell by their response.

[Guest angie]

What Makes My Woman,

The knowledge of who i am,meeting the world headon,not afraid to try,to take a chance at being/finding the real me,to fearlessly meet my future,And Smile,Because I A Woman.YES I AM.

Thank you.

Hugs Angie.

[Guest Zenda]

Sugar and spice and all things nice....THAT'S WHAT GIRLS ARE MADE OF !

Metta Jendar

[Guest kunoichigoddess]

i agree with angie and robyn we are women simply because we are out physical features in comparison to the whole thing make a diffrence, and for those who are depressed about facail features making them look guyish, ive noticed that a gentle smile makes a huge diffrence even though its hard itll become easier as you notice people see you as the woman you are

[Guest angie]

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT MY DEAR.

THE MORE YOU GET OUT THERE THE EASIER IT IS.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

ANGIE

[Guest Dora]

I think most important is attitude. Acting like you belong. As far as looks go there are all kind of guyish looking females.

Something that make me look a 2nd time as far as looks go( because I have been involved with the tg

groups for many years is a wig( hair) that is a must as far as I am concerened, always something I take a second look at.

[Guest angie]

Hey There,

Ya know,i was afraid to wear my real hair for soooooo long.

Then last Sunday...A man i know asked me why didn't i just go without a wig?

I had been experimenting with just that concept for the past month.

Visiting my GG friend Helen daily in my natural hair(Shock)

But,it was also her that convinced me that my own was good enough.

Todaaaaaay...I went to Chruch...With My Real Hair(whoa)

A few of the ladies and a couple of men commented on how nice it looks.

I was even told that i looked Cosmopolitan(Chic)

I just know that i am way more comfortable without my wig.

My hair is past my shoulders,curling on to my breast tops.

Very womanish in the way it curls and lays.

I'll Take That.

Hugs,

Angie.

[Guest Angel]

Hi, I just regestered here. I'm not new, but the layout is totally made over. I'm quite impressed.

In anycase, back to relivant topic.

I feel that it very important that one understands the boundries between gender and people in general. Everyone has thier own way of seperating the two. I personally have a hard time distinguishing it, but whne it comes right down to it gender is irrelivant, but deep down inside, I want to looked at for the irrelivancy. Am I making any sense with that last sentence? I mean that I don't care if you are a guy or girl or if you look at yourself as a guy or girl. The entire concept urks me. It supports gender roles and I hate gender roles or the doulble standard. However, I stil feel the need to be accepted to be sucha thing that I hate so much. I don't hate woman. I don't. I adore and admire them with the upmost passion and respect, but if no one ever placed these definative barriers between the two then this situation would never have happened. There would still be "transexuals" in a sense becasue you would have been physically born with aspect of yourself that you feel don't exactly live up to your standards, but it would eliminate hostility towards such topics as well as the whole cross dressing bit. It would eradicate transexuals as a whole. The reason being becasue there was never a seperation; there was never two things to compare. However, what people usually look at for hard solid prrof of one's gender is the physical aspect. I personally hate it. I don't want it and that's all people are ever interested in me for. They see me a male. The person I'm intimately involved with at this point in time actually loves the males part of me as well as the female part and it took me up to now that I am writing this to figure out how much that really helps me. A Transexual never wants to hear that gender doesn't matter, no matter how much they oppose it. They want to be recognized for what thye want to be identified as. I know I do. I don't want to be seen as a boy, but as a girl. Obviously not the prim and proper petite girls people are use to, but a girl none the less. It's hard to come to terms with your beliefs and your desires.

We people are so selfish. We Transexuals espeicaly. We cling to something that will never ever, ever fully be attained. I don't mean to impune on anyones view point, but if you are only in it for the physical aspect, then I feel that you don't truely understand the feeling of feeling out of your natural form is. I feel the hardships of being expected to act one way and behaveing another. That is the #1 thing about the barier that I am sure of. What defines a woman from a man is hared to place. You can't pin it on personality becasue that would mean that it wouldn't matter if you wanted to be a man or a woman. "I am myself." you can't do the same thing to physical aspects either because that would mean that no matter how hard you wish, you will never ever be what you want. In truth people as a whole judge what is expected of them, but not of what they truly are. For now I can only sadly say with a heavy heart that physically I am male, but mentally i am female. This leads one to believe that woman have a particulat mindset. They don't. People born with a vigina and/or a boy thing do. I have to best of both worlds, but I would rather have only one. I have the mental state of one with a vigina, but have the physicl qualifications of that of a person with a boy thing. Though long winded, I feel that that is at least something that everyone who is struggling with this concept like myself can be satisfied with.

Nothing is harder than coping with the truth. Nothing makes a "girl". Nothing makes a "boy". What truly maters is what you think. As cheesey as it sounds, it is the truth. That is the reality. No one will ever take you seriously if you don't take yourself seriously. Not everyone will look at you the way you want them to and it also means that you will have to accept that you will never truly attain the physical beauty you truly desire. I know I won't, but if you you can come to terms with your own faults, then this topic becomes as irrelicant as the idea itself.

[Guest angie]

I Must Say Something Here,

Whoa girl,that's a hard line stand if ever there were one.

It is my experience,that the girls on these forums,feel like women/girls,with or without hormones.

A true Transsexual,KNOWS that the gender represented at birth is flat out wrong...Period.

As one transitions,the feelings, emotions and sensations and changes...are an added biproduct of HRT.

There has to be honesty with onesself with just how much one can expect from transition.

I have heard not one lady say she is in this for the pleasure of dressing as a woman...NOT ONE.

I myself am seven months into transition...And i marvel at the way i feel and change daily.

I Love that i am growing the breasts i was cheated out of at thirteen.

The feel of my soft skin,the way my face is changing,the curves i am developing.

But...I am definently not in this to impress,show off,or any other such nonsense.

I am on this journey to become The Whole Woman I Was Meant To Be.

For Me...It Was Transition Or Die(and that's the truth).

Angelique Michelle(Angie)

[Sakura]

lol i love this topic ask 100 trans ppl what makes them feel the way they do or what makes a man or a woman and you will get 100 diffrent awnsers no one of us really know what its like to be a man or a woman even after surgery most trans ppl live most of thier life in the role they were born and make the move at the time when they do because they have felt wrong in the malive and birth a child e role they feel like a girl always felt like a girl but even after surgery you will still be genetically man dig up your bones in a 1000 years and they will say yeah that was a man and nothing can cause you to lose everything you learn as a man heck i have been cheamically a woman for ever almost and i dont even know how im suppost to think like a girl because while i started hrt early i lived untill my early 20s as a man so alls i can say is i am me i think how i think and act how i act i just feel more comfy in a female shell versus a male one

and you will only be in transition for a short time anyway because sooner or later you finish the process or move as far along as you can and then you become phisically the gender you aimed for and then you will be whole righ ?

no because even as a complete male or female you still carry the life you once had deep down and have to tell every potential soul mate you meet and then what the original concept of this post becomes void what makes a true honest to god woman the ability to concive and birth a child fundamentaly every thing about woman is geared toward child rearing the clear healthy skin show absence of desises even a womans intuition caring awarness are all things develope to know who what and weres a threat to her child the wide hips and buttocks followed by a skinny waist and huge breasts show a man on a subcontouse level that hey this woman has good genes and could make me strong babies same for men woman looks at men in the revers are they a good candidate to take care of my babies and the strong hunter gather type so what makes a woman really boils down to subtle little subcotouse things that you really cant controlle...... so could we ever hope to reach the penacal of femininity with out the ability to do what is evolutinaly expected of the female role pfft if knew that i would be a millionare

Jennifer "Sakura" NVM

[Guest Sophie]

What makes a person that you see on the street seem a 'boy' or 'girl' is a product of ones perception. And you could say that our judgement leading up to the perception (ie. Hair, body build, clothes, facial features) determines the identification of the subject. But theres something about the demeanor and the way a person interacts that truly defines what we see in a person. Conservative misled views is that a person born with a certain body is definately of the gender that is of their biological sex, 'if thats what you see then thats what it is.' But the problem with that arguement is that simply, when you see a boy "acting" effeminately, ie. with how they display their emotions, their tendancies, everyone would notice something "different" about them and usually are singled out and picked on, vice versa with the other gender secnario. As well, if you see a dog that didn't like to do the 'normal' things that dogs do but rather like to play with scratching posts, catnip, ect. theres something inherently out of place, in the end the body and the mind may be interconnected, but they do not necessarily determine each other. Now but again, interpreting behavior is the product of interpretation and therefore perception and catagorization but actions, behavior and interaction is the result largely of our thoughts, whereas our bodies are not and aren't thoughts what makes each of us who we are? Sure we identify people by their bodies, or more by their faces, but is a person who recieves maim injuries that disfigures their face or people who undergo plastic surgery any less of the same person that they were to begin with? Many people try to see past the interactional and behaviorial factors and solely beat the physical arguement of boy vs. girl to death but that is truely the only way that we can determine who a person is, is by observing the way they think and not by their bodies, a body that the thoughts of this person had no way of determining.

Ok that was way too philisophical. Check back in the summer when my brain is on leave to get a shorter perhaps less longrunning answer.