We're Not Just Roleplaying.

[Guest Rayne]

I was in the chatroom on this site a couple days ago, and a poster said that - even after the operation, we're just playing a role. I think she actually used the word, "roleplaying".

I don't know about you, but I'm not wearing a wizards hat and throwing 13 sided dice.

I think what she meant was that we're never going to be genetic women.

To which I say, duh.

Obviously any of us here would much prefer to have been born in the right body to begin with. We're never going to have the wider bones in the hips or have a uterus or eggs and we're never going to know what it was like to grow up as a girl.

But believe it or not, there ARE some advantages to having been born in the wrong body. I can relate to both men and women now. I speak both languages. When I hear a wife saying she doesn't understand her husband, I can help her. It works the other way, too. I can help husbands understand their wives better.

Personally, while we're not genetics, I think that we're nonetheless "REAL women".

I don't think gender can be defined as simply as what plumbing you have - I think it goes beyond that.

"Roleplaying" makes it sound like we're putting on an act. Like we're pretending to be something we're not.

I've thought and acted as a woman all my life, but I was in a male body. All I'm doing now is letting the "real" me out and being recognized for who I am. I assume the same is true for most of you as well.

Sisters, that's not roleplaying - that's metamorphasis. That's the catapiller becoming the butterfly.

[Guest Sofiadragon]

One thing that I am noticing in your post here Rayne is that you aren't willing to look @ things from another persons perspective @ all & that is the exact reason that allot of people don't understand us @ all, it is 'cause they aren't willing to look @ things from our point of view. I have a feeling from the way that you answer your posts that you are going to be very upset & possibly very mad & angry @ me for saying that, but the sad thing is, is that it is the truth. We need to all look @ the way that others think along w/ the way that we think & find some common ground & build on it 'cause then there will be a universal undestanding between all of us & then we will all be happy w/ each other. Please take that into consideration.

[Guest Emily1]

I totally agree. Also, as a DnD geek, I can say that "roleplaying" in the sense of rolling 14 sided dice (gosh, everyone knows d13's dont exist) is actually not at all "putting on a front," pretending to be someone you are not. I believe that the characters you roleplay are a way of trying on different personalities to see what fits best, though you never choose anything that doesn't fit at all. All of my characters are girls, and are generally kind, while authoritative, which is the way I'd like to be seen. In my opinion, even when someone dresses up for Halloween in a silly or scary costume that doesn't suit them at all, it allows them to express a portion of themselves that they are not usually able to.

[Guest Christine-Louise]

I agree with you 100%, I have never role played just been Me Myself.

[Guest dannae]

Role playing is not in my vocabulary,i am very excited about my gender life style.Glad i came out even at my age.

[Guest silverpetals]

"all the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players"

~william shakespeare, as you like it

aren't we always 'just roleplaying' to some extent, merely presenting a face to the world? regardless of what that face appears to be, how accurately we feel it reflects our inner selves - is it anything beyond that, a reflection?

especially within the context of gender - arguably, the binary gender roles are intrinsically contrived and socially defined. so in adopting one or the other, are we not simply acting what we believe it to be? perhaps a gender may seem more 'natural' to a person, but aren't they both essentially the same in their insincerity?

i'm not sure how i feel about this subject. it isn't really within my interests to assert that gender is a social construct, that human relationships are a façade, or that life itself is somehow false outside of existence. but does it ever feel that way sometimes, to anyone? okay i know, i stopped making sense a while ago. sorry.

and a poster said that - even after the operation, we're just playing a role

but perhaps we are all just roleplaying - she as much as anyone else.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Gee...I see that this is a touchy subject!

Peace

Donna Jean

[Guest ChrissyK]

Silverpetal made some sense there. Aren't we roleplaying, to some extent, in our daily life? Trying to please others and such....not sure if I put it correctly .

Okay, so I think I was there when that poster (a post-ops) said that because I heard about the "roleplaying" too. From the hints I gathered from her word, I think she meant that even after operation, you are still learning the role of your gender, even cisgender people are learning. And I think you will agree that the learning process never stops, for us, or even cisgender people. Most of what we learn are the "social roles" of the target gender, and hence, "roleplaying". My 2 cents

Sherlyn

[Guest julia_d]

Everybody is playing a role every day and in every public and private facet of their lives. I watch people and I see this.

You get out of bed in the morning and you put on your "getting ready for work and having breakfast" hat

You leave the house and put on your "traveling to work" hat

Then you arrive and all day you wear your "work" hat.

Then back on with the "traveling" hat, with maybe a "stopping off with friends or colleagues for a coffee or a drink" hat intermission.

Then it's on with the "I'm home and can relax" hat before finally taking them all off and sleeping.

Each one has it's associated behaviour patterns. While wearing the "traveling" hat people will tend to focus on the mission of getting where they are going. They will avoid eye contact with other people wearing the same hat, because we all send the same signals of "busy.. leave me alone" while we are in that mode. We will tolerate people wearing the same hat invading on our personal space and even being in physical contact with us because it is a necessity.

The same rules apply in each situation. People wearing the same hat will put up with the same behaviour they will exhibit because it is the accepted way to wear that hat. Only the "at home can relax" hat will have any great individuality, and you will still find the same patterns in evidence across many people. Couples who work together will generally not talk to each other while wearing the "traveling" hat and will not touch each other while wearing the "work" hat but will be comfortable to snuggle up together and talk while wearing the "relaxing" hat. The mode they are in will tend to dictate their responses and behavior towards each other as it will towards complete strangers. You can test this yourself. Try wearing your "relaxing" hat while traveling to work with a friend who you normally talk to when you are not traveling to work. If you attempt to engage them in a "relaxing" or "drinks" type conversation they will become uncomfortable.. because you are breaking the rules that are laid down by common behaviour. That you don't usually talk to people while traveling to or from work.

So we all play a role, but it isn't as simple as it at first appears to the casual observer. They are fun to test.. you can have some odd experiences.

[Guest Rayne]

One thing that I am noticing in your post here Rayne is that you aren't willing to look @ things from another persons perspective @ all & that is the exact reason that allot of people don't understand us @ all, it is 'cause they aren't willing to look @ things from our point of view. I have a feeling from the way that you answer your posts that you are going to be very upset & possibly very mad & angry @ me for saying that, but the sad thing is, is that it is the truth. We need to all look @ the way that others think along w/ the way that we think & find some common ground & build on it 'cause then there will be a universal undestanding between all of us & then we will all be happy w/ each other. Please take that into consideration.

I see her point of view, I just disagree with it.

I got the impression that she was somehow minimizing what I and others are going through.

To me, this isn't role playing - I'm becoming who I always have been, and always will be.

[Sally]

I understand that those who are looking at transsexual women, see us as 'men pretending to be women' - when more to the point in our earlier lives we were actually 'women pretending to be men'. This concept escapes most. The idea that we are all role playing in our everday lives is more accurate. If you were being your genuine self and felt that your boss was an idiot - you would tell them and probably be fired, but instead to the boss we say, "Good idea!" and when they have left, to everyone else, "What an idiot!" That is playing two roles in a matter of seconds - no one is totally themself 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - society won't allow it. In the Seventies some people tried it moving into communes and letting everyone 'do their own thing' - the problem, very few people's 'thing' included doing enough work to cover for those who felt that 'doing nothing' was their thing. Human nature is strange, we hate rules but we can't survive without them. Gender 'rules' are the ones we dislike so much, because they are the ones with the greatest effect on us.

Sally

[Guest silverpetals]

To me, this isn't role playing - I'm becoming who I always have been, and always will be.

but is it possible to become, if you have always been?

i'm really sorry; i hope this doesn't sound confrontational, i really don't wish to cause offence.

but i was just wondering, what is the answer? to become who you have always been seems to me, logically ambivalent with itself. if we have always been, there is no need to become - likewise if we become, then we were not incipiently so.

i assume that some would not feel entirely happy with a claim that the gender dissonance felt by trans people isn't innate. so i don't think there's much question that "i always have been" is not the incorrect part of the sentence.

but if 'becoming' is incorrect, then our inner gender is as we "always have been, and always will be" - thus rendering transition obsolete in terms of alignment with gender. nothing more than playing this familiar role for which we have previously been denied the chance.

roleplaying again? i don't know.

[Guest Sofiadragon]

but is it possible to become, if you have always been?

i'm really sorry; i hope this doesn't sound confrontational, i really don't wish to cause offence.

but i was just wondering, what is the answer? to become who you have always been seems to me, logically ambivalent with itself. if we have always been, there is no need to become - likewise if we become, then we were not incipiently so.

i assume that some would not feel entirely happy with a claim that the gender dissonance felt by trans people isn't innate. so i don't think there's much question that "i always have been" is not the incorrect part of the sentence.

but if 'becoming' is incorrect, then our inner gender is as we "always have been, and always will be" - thus rendering transition obsolete in terms of alignment with gender. nothing more than playing this familiar role for which we have previously been denied the chance.

roleplaying again? i don't know.

I know exactly what you mean on how you have this worded 'cause that is how I see things when it comes to everyday life. Along w/ the role playing of dayly life we are all playing a game trying to see who can outlast who if you will. I fully understand that Rayne disagreed w/ that persons statment it just seems that w/ the way that you had made your post that you were not willing to look @ another persons point of view in any manner for any reason, I wasn't meaning to offend you if I did I was just making an observation.

[Guest AnnaH]

I agree with Rayne and also with other posters in this thread. On one side, I would get offended if someone tried to tell me I wasn't a real woman and I was just roleplaying. Naturally nothing could be farther from the truth. The comment you read on that chatroom, Rayne, was probably by someone who is "against" transexuality or some such nonsense. Though I must also say that I believe socially we all roleplay and are affected by the roles of others around us. Sadly, though I was born a male, I could NOT translate how a man feels as I don't understand men myself. Being a heterosexual female (even if trans), I don't relate at all with any male feelings nor have I ever. It is sort of odd but I couldn't tell you very much about how a man feels in any way, shape, or form. Only the basic biological functions.

[Guest Sofiadragon]

I agree with Rayne and also with other posters in this thread. On one side, I would get offended if someone tried to tell me I wasn't a real woman and I was just roleplaying. Naturally nothing could be farther from the truth. The comment you read on that chatroom, Rayne, was probably by someone who is "against" transexuality or some such nonsense. Though I must also say that I believe socially we all roleplay and are affected by the roles of others around us. Sadly, though I was born a male, I could NOT translate how a man feels as I don't understand men myself. Being a heterosexual female (even if trans), I don't relate at all with any male feelings nor have I ever. It is sort of odd but I couldn't tell you very much about how a man feels in any way, shape, or form. Only the basic biological functions.

That is what I was trying to say thank you I knew that someone would be able to word it for me lol.

[Guest KristinaJ]

I was in the chatroom on this site a couple days ago, and a poster said that - even after the operation, we're just playing a role. I think she actually used the word, "roleplaying".

I don't know about you, but I'm not wearing a wizards hat and throwing 13 sided dice.

I think what she meant was that we're never going to be genetic women.

To which I say, duh.

Obviously any of us here would much prefer to have been born in the right body to begin with. We're never going to have the wider bones in the hips or have a uterus or eggs and we're never going to know what it was like to grow up as a girl.

But believe it or not, there ARE some advantages to having been born in the wrong body. I can relate to both men and women now. I speak both languages. When I hear a wife saying she doesn't understand her husband, I can help her. It works the other way, too. I can help husbands understand their wives better.

Personally, while we're not genetics, I think that we're nonetheless "REAL women".

I don't think gender can be defined as simply as what plumbing you have - I think it goes beyond that.

"Roleplaying" makes it sound like we're putting on an act. Like we're pretending to be something we're not.

I've thought and acted as a woman all my life, but I was in a male body. All I'm doing now is letting the "real" me out and being recognized for who I am. I assume the same is true for most of you as well.

Sisters, that's not roleplaying - that's metamorphasis. That's the catapiller becoming the butterfly.

I don't think that the person you were talking to was refering to Dungeons and Dragons. (and btw, there's no 13 sided dice in any role playing game I've ever heard of.)

In a way she does have a point - we are role playing the gender role we feel we most belong to. It's also true that we never will be "women". Not anytime soon anyway. The day they wheel out a way to genetically change us into women we're stuck in our little male prisons. You can change the drapes over a prison window, but no matter how pretty or fancy those drapes become there's still iron bars underneath.

[Guest Emily1]

(and btw, there's no 13 sided dice in any role playing game I've ever heard of.)

There is no way to make a fair 13 sided die that is easy to roll, though surprisingly, 7 and 14 sided dice are actually made!

[Guest julia_d]

d13 ?.. as an ex d+d player it's simple (call of cthulu actually).. d7+d6 with the toss of a coin for 2 to decide if it's a 1 or not *grins*

Roleplaying. Today I had to put on my "teachers" skin and deliver a whole day training seminar to a group of new "adult representative trainers". *shudders* I managed to break just about every rule I was trying to teach them not to break.. which was very funny in hindsight, because none of them noticed.. Leaning on the flip book stand ffs.. while it had written on it "Don't lean on the flip book stand"... hahahaha.. ohhhh.. never mind.. It was fun.

It's the first time I have delivered one of these training days since transition and I was terrified, but everything was cool and I passed again. I think my employers are seeing how far they can push me and if I will crack under pressure.

a quick pic just in from work and in dire need of coffee.

[Guest Emily1]

d13 ?.. as an ex d+d player it's simple (call of cthulu actually).. d7+d6 with the toss of a coin for 2 to decide if it's a 1 or not *grins*

The problem with that is that the roll would not be fair - what you described would have a 50% chance of a 1, and more commonly near 7-8 than 2 or 13

If you need a roll of d13, the best solution is to roll a d14 (or d20 if you have none) and discount any rolls too high.

a quick pic just in from work and in dire need of coffee.

I gotta say, you look great!

[Guest Isobelle Fox]

I was born biologically male almost 34 years ago. For the vast majority of my concious life I can say that I have _definitely_ been role-playing.... as my biological gender. I've never been very good at it, but I get an E for effort.

These days, I can think of a lot of things that I could do that would be "role-playing" to fit the construct of what may or may not be percieved in our society as feminine. I think some people do in fact fall into that "trap" in an attempt to over-compensate for the disparity between mind and body. They go from pretending to be what they feel is expected of their biological gender to pretending to be what they feel best matches their gender identity.

To some extent, we probably ALL do that. Even non-transgendered people conciously and unconciously conform to these expectations.

But me, right now?

I am just being me.

Admittedly, I am having to learn to let down the fortifications that I have spent my entire life building against these feelings, and in that regard it is sometimes hard for me to say what "being me" actually means, but even at my worst and most confused I am entirely sincere in my expression.

So role-playing?

No.

I think people, most people maybe, are very dedicated to the idea of the binary gender system. To me, this is understandable but lamentably ignorant of reality. The idea that a person who is biologically male can _naturally_ think and feel like someone who is biologically female, can identify with and want to be female, seems alien to those most convinced that nature only produces the inherently binary pair of completely male and female organisms.

Anyone willing to educate themselves will find a body of evidence to the contrary. Its known, scientifically, that differences in recognizable gender oriented behavior can and often do have roots in biological causes, like brain structure and hormone balance. That may be outside of the common experience of the every day person, but so are a lot of other things that are never the less true and which are more widely accepted.

Another thing that needs serious work in our society is the idea that sex and gender are as intimate as cause and effect. This too is profoundly ignorant, but in this case the ignorance is probably less excusable.

Most of us are smart enough to have noted that gender expression works on a sliding scale. Even people who clearly and happily identify with their own biological sex do not often represent the extreme stereotypes of the associated role. People naturally fall all over the spectrum, and its generally not until they reach the real fringes that others begin to notice.

At any rate, the mental/ emotional/ psycological/ societal analog of gender really doesn't necissarily have a THING to do with one's biological sex, and that is an easily observable reality.

To people who believe that transgendered folk are all role playing I would just pose the question of why HRT has such a profound effect on the body and psycology of those who recieve the treatment? If the body reacts to this change by reshaping itself and behavior and emotional balance is notably altered, then the obvious conclusion to my mind is that the line between male and female is not as clearly drawn as those who call us role-players would like think.

Our feelings have definable, observable, and even increasingly predictable causes. They are a reflection of the fact that the black and white "roles" of male and female are probably in need of a more refined definition that can and should include the grey areas that nature occasionally produces in the form of transgendered people.

[Guest Tammy Maher]

I don't know about you, but I'm not wearing a wizards hat and throwing 13 sided dice.

I'm a very current DnD geek. d13 do not exist, the closest you can come is a d12. or a d10 in combo with a d4

Also, as a DnD geek

We need to talk.

I just got my 4th ed books.

^^/

[Guest angie]

I am a preop transwoman and will most likely be for quite some time.

BUT...This is no roleplay game.This is my life and I am a woman.

I am not playing the part,I am not part time,I am a fulltime,in body,

mind and soul A WOMAN.

Angelique Michelle

who doesn't role play and resents anyone saying I am or do.

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

Actually don't we refer to societal expectations of gender behaviour as gender roles? If so then everyone is playing a role or more commonly role playing. I dont think that the poster meant it in the gaming sense but its hard to tell with it being out of context.

To an extent we play roles every day, we do what is expected of us as family people, employees etc then we add to that the mixup of us being transsexual or some other flavor of the spectrum and as Shakespeare said "All the world's a stage; the men and women merely players." Some of us do the role as assigned at birth others sensing the incorrectness of that role realize that they should have been born into the oposite one and take steps to change it, still others find that they can play both roles at different times.

To me this kind of roleplay isnt fackery, fraudulent or some other flasity, it is the way society expects people of a certain gender to behave, the twist up is that we know that what is expected of us is wrong.

just my 0.10

[Guest Evan_J]

I think what she meant was that we're never going to be genetic women.

Actually? What she was saying was that she was never going was never going to accept transwomen as "real" women. And encouraging other people that they should feel the same way that she's is planning to.

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

I'm a very current DnD geek. d13 do not exist, the closest you can come is a d12. or a d10 in combo with a d4

We need to talk.

I just got my 4th ed books.

^^/

fine wisdom or less on 6d6