The "s" Pronoun

[Guest J-Walker]

So as many of you know, I recently had my top surgery done (The evidence no longer exists due to the problems with the site between Nov 3 through 11 ). I've been attending a LGBT support group where I introduced myself as a gay male but am out as trans there as well. I recently became friends with one of the guys there because he was interested in the transgender concept.

We went to a movie theatre and while we were purchasing tickets he referred to me as "she" when he was indicating who was paying. After we left the line he asked if I preferred he and I just gave him the "Yeah, please". The other day, however, I introduced him to another trans friend of mine (An MTF) and he asked us both a lot of questions. We both agreed that the one thing that bothers us the most, beyond the taunting and sneering and attacks, is when people call us by the wrong pronoun, especially in public. I was driving him home and he asked me why that bothered me so much, like he was surprised. When I explained, I found out he'd been continuing to call me she in public when referring to me, though I was never there to hear it. Even in situations where we'd be ordering food and I'd walk away to the bathroom and he'd call me she to the waitress or something. Afterwards he told me he didn't think of me as a guy, but as a girl trying to become a guy. From someone who had become such a good friend in the past few weeks, that really hurt.

I got over it but I'm taking him really lightly now. I went to my support group tonight and yet again someone referred to me as she. Accidentally, but still called me "she" when telling a story about us. I don't even talk to this guy outside of our support group either, so that was surprising. I've NEVER referred to myself as a girl, and we have a thing we do at this group where we give our name, age, location and our preferred gender pronoun. I ALWAYS say he. Is it really that hard? It's just frustrating and makes me doubt myself.

What's funny is that my friends who knew and have known me as a woman for the last 18 years have had really no problems calling me by my name or referring to me as he in public, yet people who have always known me as a male, albeit a transmale, can't even attempt to call me he. Is there anyone out there who can meet someone KNOWING they are a transman yet still consider them as genuinely male? With my top surgery I was expecting that the seas would part and everyone would automatically accept me as male. Now apparently I have to continue to reinvent myself even to people that I was appearing as I wanted to. It's probably my voice that just makes it difficult. I feel like once my voice drops people will have no problem, but I feel like I shouldn't have to have a low voice to be considered male.

Anyone else absolutely HATE being called "she"? Even from people who aren't doing it deliberately?

Sorry, I rant a lot when I'm angry, so I've highlighted the actual points in pink (Not as angry as red but just as attention attracting as well as ironic) that should be read for participation in this topic.

[Guest CharliTo]

i can't blame you... i know most of my not-too-close-friends can't call me Charlie or albeit Char. Only my closest friends, even though they knew me as a "he" for the last 22 years, continue to call me a she.

It's annoying....and it might have been a domino effect where that "friend" and others kinda used the word she. It all takes a lot of conditioning again for the people. I mean, just like anybody would, just be like "IT'S HE! GAH!" or something like that...

Most people don't understand what it is like to be trans so they won't believe that the pronoun thing is a big deal...unless you clearly tell them you don't like it.

G'luck. It sucks but it'll go okay. This issue is definitely something that I'm sure a lot of FTMs feel, but also MTFs too.

[Guest Nelly]

Hi,

why do you choose pink? I thought pink is a girly color? Just joking

I found out that I once I start to pronounce someone wrong it is hard to change it. E.g. the cat. It is a boy but I allways say she to him. It is hard to get it right.

In your case I think it is something special. If you are visting a support group you have a lot of special people. You are FTM and maybe someone other is MTF. That make it difficult to learn it right. Your friends had more time to learn it. You saw them every day for a long time. But the supportgroup does not see you so often.

So I think the best solution is, within the supportgroup, everytime somebody call someone wrong it cost one dollar for the coffee pot. At the end of the month the money is used for a small party or so. This let the people take more attention to it. If this does not help print a big "HE" on a T-Shirt and wear it and do not take it so serious also if it is hard.

You can also start your answer within in the groupr allways with "For me as a MAN it is ...".

Greetings

Nelly

[Guest Cody_T]

I hate being called she, at least when I'm trying not to be. For me I can't bind more than like one a month without doing major damage to my chest and back, and even then I'm really self conscious because it doesn't get anywhere near flat enough even if it's so tight that I'm able to breathe just the minimum to stay conscious. So basically, it's a pretty big thing for me and I'm only out to a few people, so I can't really do it. I went to disneyland with a friend, and she absolutely refused to call me he or Cody at all... and judging by the slight double take everyone she called me she in front of took, I pass pretty well. So it really pisses me off that she was undermining me and basically outing me to everyone we met on ride/in line/at dinner/ etc.

I understand that people have it hard getting it right, but all it takes in a conscious effort, seriously. If someone really cared enough to ensure that they called you by the right pronouns they would. That's probably the reason your old friends are better at it- because they care about what you're feeling and not just what they are. I think it's just that people don't realize how terrible it is to be referred to like that, and it's easier for them. I go to this camp where the counselors have nicknames and their real names are top secret, and I was friends with some of them long before they became counselors... I messed up on one of their names once in the entire time and apologized profusely because I felt bad... in contrast, back when I was trying to make my friend use the correct name and pronouns she got it right once... and got peed every time I pointed out her mistakes because she thought that it was completely stupid that she had to change something just so I could be comfortable. If you want to make the change, you can, easily.

It's probably not helpful, but next time I'm binding with her I'm going to refer to her completely by male pronouns and see how she likes it And hopefully also illustrate how it's not that hard to do.

It's amazing how important genitals are in determining how other people view you... especially because they're never going to see them. Just the thought that you were at one point living as a female makes them think of you in that way in their heads. And like Charlie said, if one of them calls you she maybe it spreads. The biggest thing is just that they don't understand it, and so it's like it's no big deal, they'll do whatever they want. I guess all you can do to help is try to make them see that it's ten times more important than they think, and it's such an easy thing to modify their language. Let them know that it's offensive to be called she... they probably wouldn't like it if you just referred to them in public as, 'that Sweetie' to everyone you met, would they? Same concept. And the penalty idea if a cool one, kind of like a put down box. It might make it more obvious to them that they need to not do that. And at very least it will put them in the mindset of 'boy boy boy he he he' and they'll have the freak out moment when they forget, instead of going, "she" and being fine with it.

[Guest Evan_J]

If this is an lgbt group and its happening there it would seem to be because the members in that group dislike peeps transitioning. There are plenty of gay people who feel its "wrong". They refuse to accept you as what you are. The fact that you actually have done a physical thing to that end actually could "heighten" their anger towards it and that might be what you're seeing. Truthfully I agree with something actually my therapist has said on more than one occasion about a lot of that when it happens (I see him sometimes in social settngs too so its in different environments). "Most of the people who get so peed off are peed off because they see themselves as "stuck" being this or that and you urine them off when you're not stuck right along with them".

Whatever the reason though its still supposed to be an affirming function and the admin or facilitators should be stopping it.

I would question if I wanted to be in that group. But I would drop the "friend" cuz he ain't.

[Guest J-Walker]

Now that I think about it, I probably should have posted this in the "Transsexual" Forum. I forget to post there because the update late never works and I always think it's dead. XP But I know this is something both MTFs and FTMs go through.

Char: I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. XP I can't believe they can't simply call you Charlie. That's ridiculous. And thanks for the comfort. I know it'll get better, I'm just frustrated right now. I didn't spend $7,000 on getting my breasts removed to have people call me a girl. But even if they do, I'm amazingly attractive now, so I still win. XP

Nelly: These people have always known me as a guy. There has never been a time I've told them flat out I was a girl. I'm living as a gay male and was when I came to this group. Yet other than in public (And coincidentally only when I'm out with a member from this group) I am not called she. And if I start a drive like that everyone's gonna call me "she" so we can have a party. XD; Not a bad idea though, and as far as I know I'm the only trans at this group.

Cody: Yeah, your feelings pretty much coincide with my own. (: My stress is more from feeling like I can't meet new people and be open about being trans without forever being seen in their eyes as a female. I don't mind as long as they don't blurt it out at me but still I'd like to think people legitimately see me as male. If someone were to tell me that this support group would be the only group to ever call me she after introducing myself as male and then correcting them when they slipped up, I'd wear a dress to it (Figuratively).

I'd like to hold a day where I do that, call everyone by the opposite pronoun. At the same time though I'm a whimp. I don't want to upset anyone who HASN'T done that to me because I don't want to go around offending people. But I think it would be a lot of fun. XP If I continue to find it a problem I might ask to instigate the cash box thing. Maybe they could do donations to the organization. That way the group grows and they feel like they legitimately lost money. XD

And I chose pink because I like it and I thought it was ironic.

[Guest Mel7]

To prove your point about the pronouns in front of them, just start calling them by their opposite one all the time and see how they react to it. Maybe then they would start to understand that it is really frustrating when they continue to mistake you for a she when you are clearly male.

Like:

Waiter: What would you like?

The male person you are with: /She/ would like a blah blah blah.

You: Grrr, and /she/ would like blah blah blah.

The male person you are with: I'm not a girl!

You: Well you are now if you keep calling me that! >_<

XD

Just a suggestion. I've never had that problem, cause no one knows of my confusions so...yeah, heh.

[Guest Cody_T]

yeah it sucks that it's so hard to be open about it... like, I'm pretty much forced to be silent right now so I don't have any experience, but I would want to let people get to know me just as a guy before I let them know I'm trans if i'm able... the problem is that most people have no idea what it means to be trans, even if they've heard about it, and so as soon as you tell them that they'll think, "girl" and that's their first impression, which is hard for them to change. If you know them and they've gotten used to you, it's a little different and they'll be more able to just take it and get over it without thinking of you as female. At least I hope so. But that makes it necessary to pass really well, so I guess all you can do is emphasize that you are not female and you don't want those pronouns used, and correct them whenever they mess up. And really make sure they understand. Because that same friend who won't call me he even when I'm pasing to everyone in the world told me, "you know how you *want* to be a guy? Well i think it would be cool to have a penis too". Which basically says, "I have no clue/haven't remembered a thing you told me" and I think if she understood better she'd be better about it. So basically I think the most important thing is getting people to understand everything.

[Guest CharlieRose]

If this is an lgbt group and its happening there it would seem to be because the members in that group dislike peeps transitioning. There are plenty of gay people who feel its "wrong".

Well, perhaps not gay or straight, but cisgender.

And that idea that we're just girls who "want" to be guys is SOOO annoying. I just want to say, Do you know how much easier my life would be if I was a girl? If anything, I *want* to be a girl, 'cause that's the body I'm in, but I'm not, and THAT's why I'm transitioning, stupidface!

[Guest sphere]

I know EXACTLY what you mean.

All my "friends" (eh... I don't think of them as friends, more like friendly aquantainces I suppose.. whatever) KNOW I am FTM and I strongly feel I am a guy and they KNOW it hurts when they call me "she" but guess what?

THEY DO IT ANYWAY.

God, and what really pisses me off, is if I'm passing and then they have to GO AND REFER TO ME AS A GIRL AND RUIN EVERYTHING WHAT THE HELL.

I mean CHRIST. What's so hard about referring to me as "HE"?!?! It hurts me a lot, I don't get how they don't understand that. They believe me when I say I'm trans but still THEY CALL ME A GIRL WHY DO THEY CALL ME A GIRL.

sorry, venting... I HATE it with a burning passion. hatehatehate. hate.

i think next time i'll go and actually work up the courage to be like, "hey guys, enough is enough. stop calling me a girl, because i'm not one." it probably won't do anything anyway.

[Guest J-Walker]

Haha, I don't think it's to THAT extent. XD They're accepting people, at least it seems that way. The pronoun mistakes have been corrected after they said them, so it's not like they aren't trying. If it occurs again I'll either have to suggest the money box or find a new group.

And don't worry, the "friend" I've always taken with a grain of salt. He's a nice guy. He just doesn't have enough confidence in himself to be considerate of other people.

Oh yeah, CharlieRose, I HATE that. My favorite is the people who think we're gay and are transitioning because we can't face the fact. XP

[Guest CharliTo]

even if they do, I'm amazingly attractive now, so I still win. XP

*high fives* :3 Yeah, we win .

....except that for me, I get told that during my disguise mode =_=... I'm not entirely fulltime just yet. :C I still thank them, but yeah, it's a bittersweet compliment I'm getting while I do my new server job.

[Guest J-Walker]

Awww. *Hugs Charli.* I think it just means you're gorgeous no matter what you're dressed as. (;

oO That's not a bad idea Mel. I like hearing humorous solutions. XP Or I could cause a scene and be like "What? You thought I was a GIRL? Is that why you asked me out? I thought you were gay! Pff..."

Sphere, that is my EXACT problem. And it really wouldn't bother me so much if I hadn't just had major surgery to prevent this. XD;

I think a lot of the feedback has helped though. I always go overboard when I have a problem and rant like a whiny toddler. >> But I think I have some concrete solutions to my problem now that won't make me feel like I have to have my day (and passing) ruined when someone slips up. Thanks guys and gals!

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

My friends, even though I am out to them, are still calling me "she". It hurts. I can count every instance in my head. I'm not going to complain too much though because it isn't like I correct them. They are all good people and I'm sure they'd make more of an effort if I made a bigger deal out of it. I do appreciate that they have stopped considering me "one of the girls" and lumping me in with that crowd. I think my cisgendered friends really just don't understand how much the wrong pronouns hurt. There's no way they could. Hopefully they will stop when I make it clear that I am not going to answer to "she" or "her" anymore and that I am going to keep correcting them EVERY TIME they screw it up.

With me, I think the biggest reason I don't stand up for myself is because I feel like I don't have the "right" to correct people yet. My voice hasn't changed and I can't bind my unsightly chesticles because they are huge. For all intents and purposes, I still look a lot like a "she". That confuses people. After my chest surgery I am going to be a lot more pushy about the pronoun business. I don't think there will be giant changes in other aspects of my appearance after Dec. 9th, but after that I will feel like I have more of a "right" to demand the right pronouns.

As for your group, I don't know what the deal is with them. Every GLBT group I've been to makes a concerted effort to use the right pronouns and to ask if they aren't sure which ones you prefer. I think you are right to be a bit angry. I mean, what does it cost people to just use the right pronouns. If you are identifying as a transman and just had chest surgery, then your preference should be obvious.