A Skirt is just a Skirt .. or is it?

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Hi All,

A teenager ( let's call her Sam) who has been living next door to us ( my partner and I) and has become like an adopted niece is moving away to another state. We wanted to do somethig special for her before she left and so, we decided to take her and one of her friends to the beach. Sam's friend's Mom has never met us and is quite homophobic ... This issue has been especialy intense since her daughter came out abotu 2 weeks ago .. so, her freind's Mom, wanted to meet us before she let us take her an dgave the firm warnign that if "She didn't liek the looks of us, her daughter ( let's call her Mo) could not go to the beach. The girls were totally freaked out and we were all sure that once her Mom got a look at me, the beach day would be cancelled. So, we decided to meet to talk about how to communicate with Mo' Mom. As a joke, I decided to wear one of my grilfriend's flowy skirts when the girls came by. We all got a good laugh at how absolutley ridiculous I look in women's clothing. I changed back into my regular clothes and that was about it. We met with Mo's Mom the next day ( me looking like I always look) and after some hard stares, Mo's Mom reluctantly decided to let her daughter go to the beach. We were all happlily shocked and relieved .... and we had a great day at the beach.

But that is NOT what this thread is all about ....

I realized when I put on the skirt that I had worn a skirt only a handful of times in my life and that it had been well over 20 years since I had worn anything like this ... and even before, it had been a rare occassion, mostly for formal choral performances where it was required. And ... I can't remember ever wearing this particular type of skirt ... ever ... it was one of those ( for lack of a better word) "hippie" skirts that may have been made in India .

Anyway, I was amazed at how physically comfortable it felt. It was almost as comfortable as being nude ... with the added benefit of being legal!

Yet, despite the fact that the skirt was physcially comfortable, I realized that it was just as emotionally uncomfortable to wear it. No only did it not "look right" but I felt very embarrassed. I explored the idea of what it might feel liek to go out in public wearing this skirt and immediately, I felt a feeling of extreme anxiety rush through me.

Now ... I have always known that wearing clothing that is determined "appropriate" for my birth sex ( female) never felt right .. or even looked right .. the last time my Mom got me to try on a dress, we both burst out laughing when she saw me coem out of the dressing room and she never pressured me again.... wearing women's clothing has always felt ( and looked) like cross dressing. This is why I chose boyish clothing as a kid and switched to men's clothing when I moved out at 18. So .. to feel odd wearing a skirt was not a shocker ... However, the extreme sense of "panic" that I felt when I imagined myslef stepping outside dressed this way, was not something that I had anticipated.

I think about this objectivley and feel "A skirt is a skirt .. it is just an item of clothing ... what's the big deal!" Yet, I know that if I step outside wearing a skirt, I will very likely be seen as a man in a dress and this reality scares me much more that my daily experience as an androgyne in men's clothing. Isn't that kind of odd?

Objectively, I can say that the skirt was very comfortable to wear ... I know I should not care what people think ... wearing a skirt would not change who I am .. Yet, I feel this fear .. (imagined or not) that looking as manly as I do and wearing a skirt may not be safe or even enjoyable in public because of the stress that I would undoubtedly feel. I think that it is interstign that alsothoug I identify as androgyne .. I am most attached and comfortable with wearing men's clothing ... I am may want to challenge this within myslef ... I may push myslef to explore this "cross dressing" ... I am not sure if it would be worth it or not. I am not sure if I would get anything out of it (other than an experiment in terror.) Buit you nver know ... it may be freeing to get out of my comfort zone.

Ultimaltey, this experience confirms that I really resent that clothing is so gender specific ... that, most often, a skirt is not just a skirt in a (dominant) culture that pushes gender conformity. Sigh.

Hugs,

JB

[Charlize]

Thanks for that post. My experience is different but the same. I was out in a long light denim "hippie" skirt yesterday. Very comfortable in unusually hot weather. Almost feels like sheets in bed. Do dress like that i have to make myself as female as possible. I'm unfortunately bald and can't grow my own hair. I couldn't not wear my wig. Ugh. Wear is the comfort in that. I was so envious of a woman with a crewcut t shirt and coveralls. Being seen as a man in a skirt is very scary. It is not accepted at all. I only wish i was as comfortable as a man and felt that it was right for me. And i must say that i'm sorry that most women have given up the comfort of a skirt.

Hugs, Charlie

[Cyndee]

Interesting to read this morning JB.

Skirts really are so functional and comfortable, I love 'em myself, and yes there can even be danger wrought in wearing one (seems silly) if the rest of the presentation clashes. It's sad we have such a judgemental society in many ways, the forces to conform powerful, especially harsh on the masculine side. Where are all the free thinkers in the world ? a seeminly rare commodity. Conformity just gets so old, is stiffling, too convienent, and frankly quite boring.

I dunno have you considered kilts ? Those get less attention and are acceptable "masculine skirts", maybe not your thing, but thought would mention.

Cindy -

[Guest Meri]

I wear skirts and kilts along with sport jackets and polo shirts. I lean toward earth toned colored skirts, but otherwise, skirts, both knee length and maxi length depending on the situation. It has been a huge challenge for me to do this, the first time I tried I was terrified, but each time has been a bit easier.

Kilts generally get positive attention and questions, skirts get an occasional sneer, but are ignored for the most part.

In most places, people don't seem to care. I don't know that I would visit North Carolina wearing a skirt or a biker bar, but otherwise, it's not as scary as you may think.

I view it as a positive self-growth experience.

-Meri

[VickySGV]

Look up UtiliKilts.com !! I have one and love it.

It is a non-tartan (not plaid) kilt garment that is quite comfortable and gives the same comfort as a skirt. They are located up in Washington State near Seattle, and a number of their customers are the operators of the selective logging tractors on the Olympic penninsula who have a wide variety of foot movements that make shorts or slacks too limiting. Quite a few bands use them too. I wear mine several times a year when I am involved in activities that involve both heavy physical activity for periods and sitting in a chair for long periods between if it is outside.

The one I have is black in a heavy, almost denim, cotton fabric and requires about a two and a half inch leather belt to keep it up. With a man's T on the top its pure guy, but with a cute ruffled top on, its a "metal chic" thing. I have a pic of me wearing it in girl mode that I will find and put in my gallery when I find it.

P.S. I just went to their website, their picture gallery shows MEN!!

Edited May 23, 2012 by VickySGV
added PS instead of new post

[~Nova~]

(JB)

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Thank you for the wonderful insights Charlie, Cynthia Rae, Meri, Vicky and Nova,

I do think that I will look into getting a utility Kilt .. maybe as a gift to myself when my partner graduates form P.A. school. I have wanted one ever since I heard that they existed .. they seem that they would be the perfect androgyne attire! Guys look great in them and women look "hot" in them as well! LOL! Love it!

Hugs to all,

JB

Hey Nova .. good to see you !!

[Guest Micha]

Tha's pretty much exactly how I feel. The discomfort, self consciousness and the fear of being seen in a skirt vs the undeniable fact that they're sooooo comfy, and to be honest, I do like the way I look in them. I have a pretty low opinion of how I look in general, so that's kind of rare for me.

Ideals are how we want to live, beliefs are the way we actually live. I've said many times that clothes are clothes, meant to be worn, by anyone. That is an ideal. In practice, I can't follow through, and I hate how much conflict there is, even in my own consciousness, about something so petty as what I'm wearing, and what the reaction might be. I hate that I'm afraid, and how that fear is denying me this, how I deny myself this freedom. In the end, I feel like such a coward.

I've tried on a kilt at the reni-fest in Larkspur (can't wait to go again this summer!) and I would totally wear one non stop if I could afford one.

But that is another conundrum, isn't it? Kilts are acceptable, and wearing one doesn't evoke the same apprehension, internally or from other people. Skirts however, are not. Why? And how do I move past this completely irrational roadblock?

[Guest Alder]

well, no matter how much one wishes to separate themselves from the social confines of things, it's exists. I feel the same, I wore a skirt out for International men can wear dresses too day, and while I was at home it was wonderful, once I was out in public I started becoming very self conscious[this was also much due to it's length.]

I would think the kilt vs skirt is simply due to the broad social idea of "kilt=mans skirt" "skirt=chick skirt"

[Guest Meri]

Micha,

The way to get past it is to take baby steps and work your way up.

When I discovered my love of skirts, I wore them around the house. I was bound and determined, however, to wear them out. I couldn't see myself actually doing it, however, so I decided I could take a baby step. The baby step was to go sit in the car in the driveway (a convertable). After that was accomplished, I decided I could drive around, I mean, no big deal right? It's just a drive.

I then proceeded to drive around the neighborhood, then out to the shops. Things were going well, so I decided to walk into a Border's bookstore because I was interested in finding a particular book. Well, I parked the car, sat in it for about 5 minutes starring at the door, finally got up the courage to get out and walk in. Oddly enough, I didn't get any odd looks (that I detected) and a SA offerred to help me find the book I was looking for. I was so nervous I could hardly think. However, I did eventually find the book and purchased it without incident.

I then visited an Olive Garden and had dinner. On the way on, I noticed a group of men standing around talking. They spotted me and I did get a few odd looks from that crowd. However, no tar and features. No incidents inside the restaurant, I enjoyed my dinner.

My outings continued and my courage grew. I know wear skirts, sarongs and kitls out an about. My attitude and deamenor is "everything is normal". Generally I am simply ignored.

Baby steps -- that's the way forward.

-Meri

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Good to hear from you Micha and Alder ... great advice Meri!

I saw woman today wearing one of those "hippie" skirts today but she was wearing it in a very androgynous way. Her skirt was solid army green. She was also wearing a black thin cotton hoodie ( with the hood down) a black sling-type messenger bag and casual black sandals. She looked very comforatble and I could imagine a man ( or myself!) wearing this and not getting much (unwanted) attention.

By the way .. thanks again Vicky for posting the webiste for the kilts! I would like ot get a chocolate brown one once I have the money. I will have to set aside a special piggy bank for my kilt.

Dang ... I wish I could sew .. maybe I will have to learn. You know ... it woudl be cool to make clothing for myself (and possibly) for my friends!

You know ... I bet there is a big market for androgyne attire ... I mean ... look how well this utility kilt company is doing. (More motivation to learn how to sew!)

All of this talk about skirts has gotten me thinking about waht I really don't generally think much about ... what people wear.

I am remembering times that I have seen men in robe and flowing gown or skirt type clothing.

For instance, In india, it was commonplace for men to wear wrap around Lungi's that usually hit just above the knee. I also saw men in more flowing type robes. Some Muslim men wore long Kurtas, Dishadashas, and Salwar Kameez' .. all very robe-like garments.

When I was a young teenager, I used to power-lift with my brother and we loved working out when the massive Samoan guys were training. They were often shirt-less and wore bright flower patterned lava-lava sarongs. (I have a feeling that these guys could have gone ANYWHERE in thse things and no one would dare sneer or say a peep about it! LOL! ) It is the same with the Scottish guys in kilts .. they are usually pretty rugged.

Anyway ... I have known of one artist, and one muscian in my community who would publicy wear sarongs and androgynous dresses. One of the men, the late Paul Solder, ( a famous ceramicist) was kind of known for wearing sarongs, especially at art openings. The other guy was the director of a music program at a local college and he would occasionally wear tunic style dresses that were made of Guatemalan fabric while he was at school. He had long black hair, usually worn in a single braid, and a very cool long black beard.

It is interesting how many cultures have less issues ( or no issues) with men wearing clothing that does not wrap the upper legs and groin area as pants and shorts to.

We have a lot to to learn!!

Hugs to All,

JB

[Guest Micha]

yeah, no one's gonna dare point a finger and snicker at a Samoan weight lifter. Or an old school Scotsman for that matter. It is very striking to me how these two cultures are very tough and self confident, and also wear things that American cultures would otherwise deem feminine (ie weak and unmanly, UN-masculine - but no one would dare talk trash to their faces).

How very backwards and anti-progressive American culture seems to me.

I am totally for starting a new clothes line! I have long wanted to learn to sew so I could make my own clothes as I see fit. Even without skirts I want pants and shorts that are less standardized and more to my ideals. All I needs is a machine and some sewing lesson, and then JB, we gots ourselves a business.

Thank you Meri for your advise, and I really do hold it as invaluable. Truly I wish I could start at that point, but I am constantly surrounded by family, who would either sneer and criticize, or be a loved one who would feel un-feminine and un-pretty for seeing me in a skirt. I've worn eye-liner and mascara much to mi amore's dismay, and when I asked why it bothers her so, she tells me that I make her feel less feminine. Totally not her fault, she's had to stand tough and defend herself from assaults that would have broken a lesser human being, but as a result, she doesn't feel feminine, she doesn't feel delicate or loved. So any show of anything outside the hetero-normative standard of masculinity sends my beloved into fits of doubt and distress. She recognizes my emotions, sensitivity and compassion as something outside the norm of "manliness," but where I prefer to think of it as making me a better person, she considers me a better man. It's very hard for me to see where she draws the distinction of man and woman, but it is very clear that she does draw a line. She's my best friend, and I love her as I could never love myself. . . so this is a very difficult conundrum. Sooner or later a compromise will have to be accepted, but I doubt now if it will be a compromise of balance and equality, or one of us conforming completely to the others' needs.

[Guest agfrommd]

I asked why it bothers her so, she tells me that I make her feel less feminine.

Gender non-conformity is a high-voltage third rail where marriage and relationships go.

My wife has always known I was a bit genderqueer. At our wedding, her maid of honor was a guy, my best man was a woman. But now that I'm starting to face my issues, she's gotten weird.

I see where they're coming from. The don't require a course in "how to deal with a genderqueer mate" in most high school and college programs.

I got advice from someone on another forum to keep reminding her that I haven't changed. I'm still the same person, I'm just expressing what's always been inside.

It seems to be working ... some of the time.

[Guest Meri]

Micha,

I didn't mention that I started my skirt experiments while 1000 miles from home. Mia spousa was far, far away. I had 6 months to experiment. I did bring the skirts home and I did tell my wife about my interest in skirts and she didn't take it very well. That was 4 or 5 years ago. I had to curtail my skirt wearing quite a bit and started wearing kilts more often than the skirts. Over time, she has gradually come around and decided to keep me, but it has been a long, bumpy road.

I don't rub it in her face and I do give her the benefit of the doubt on most occasions. I do, however, keep skirts and kilts in my life and wardrobe on a regular basis. For now, things are working and I expect they will continue to do so.

I also like the look of sun dresses, but I don't have the body for them and just not feminine enough looking to pull it off. Skirts seem to work out OK, a skirt and a polo just seems to go together.

Take it slow -- real slow, you have the rest of your life to savor this interest.

-Meri

[Guest aleon515]

Wow! Those utilitkilts are expensive!

I have not worn a skirt/dress for 20 years. I agree re: not liking the emotional feel of them. As I think skirts are very comfortable physically.

BTW, I think utilikilts may be run by an androgyne. If you look under "other stuff" it shows a restroom sign with male and female (though the typical) symbols.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Late on this - wasn't going to reply as everything has been said, I thought.

Yet, despite the fact that the skirt was physically comfortable, I realized that it was just as emotionally uncomfortable to wear it. No only did it not "look right" but I felt very embarrassed. I explored the idea of what it might feel liek to go out in public wearing this skirt and immediately, I felt a feeling of extreme anxiety rush through me.

And the above is from a cis-born female person who has the ;social permission' to wear a skirt!

But I understand, perfectly.

Oh I am so happy that I now wear skirts, because the dang things are just so wonderfully comfortable, especially here in the Deep South. But you are right. Until I was always seen as a woman. I wasn't able to wear a skirt (or a dress which is similar). It's so "gender identifying."

Long hair - okay since the Hippy days - either gender. The 'rebel' and the 'biker' looks helped. Also the 'country boy' lifestyle. (But you have to have a beard too). And women with long hair have a look of being sexy. I never KNEW how much UPKEEP it takes! YIKES

Short hair - women can go short hair because they also serve in the military - but sometimes it gets 'iffy' around the 'levees-in-Amsterdam-phobics.

Earrings - well that's either gender now. Cool having both sides where before it wasn't.

Dressy shirt or top - sometimes either gender - Antonio Banderas look

Cowboy boots - women now use them as a fashion statement, as well as for shoveling out the horse stalls.

Make-up - wellll sometimes - punk look, goth, musician - still restricted to young people, but that will change.

Skirts - SKREEEETCH - NO SKIRTS UNLESS IF YOU ARE FEMALE

Okay okay - maybe it's coming (a Kilt is not a skirt) - women wearing pants was once forbidden in polite society. But if you hold your breath while waiting, Guinness World Records may want to talk to you.

So me wearing a skirt? It's okay - but only because I am transitioned

Sorry - all you others (except the girly girls) just better stick with your skinny jeans (assuming you can get in them - I can't) ....

Sigh... such is life!

hee hee

Lizzy

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Oh .. the SKINNY JEANS!!!! LOL!!!

I wnt to teh NOrton Simon yesterday and it was funt ot look a tthe very old portraits of weathly families and individuals. Wew noted several men waerign heels, tights and frilly bows on their shoes and as collars. Many has long curly hair (or wigs) ... so intersting. But hey, we can look at George Washington and that it was not so long ago that men's fashion was ... well .. much different!

I notice also in my neighborhood that soem of th eyoiung, "hyper masculine" men wear very long and loose shorts .. blsketball shorts ... they are made of shiny nayone material and look much like skirts ... Now ,help me on this ... would they be Goucho's?? They seem to long to be Skorts!! HA!! I am not goign to ask on eof these guys on the streets .. "Hey Dude .. are you wearing Goucho's or Skorts??" Pause .... guy walks toward me and "OWE!!" Some concestaions are better shared here on LP.

Oh and LIzzie .. I am not sure how "cis" or even female ( I may be intersex) I am but I am legally female and I have no wish to change that. So, in that regard ... I am "cis female" nad you are cor rect... My actual gender ... is androgyne but I am often seen as male in public by aqaintences ... mostly at the gym "Hey bro ... can I work in with you .. thanks dude" Stuff like that ... The chest (after the double mastectomy) has really pushed things over the edge.

Coolio.

Hugs,

JB