Should've known when...?

[Guest Melancholy]

There's probably a thread just like this, but I'd prefer not to perform necromancy.

So, the question is, should've known you were androgyne when...?

[Guest Alder]

When I spent my entire youth and teen years in utter annoyance to being placed in the binary structure.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

When I was a really little kid .. maybe 4 ... and I wanted to be a boy (but didn't want to have a penis.) By twin brother had a penis and it seemed to be inconvenient as he got accidently "crunched" a few times. Me, I never worried about getting crunched and I felt that this was an advantage especially with wresting and stuff like that. I was a funny kid.

[Guest aleon515]

When I dressed like a boy, called myself Billy, and got upset when mom called me by my given name. (Though what would I have known then.)

--Jay Jay

[Guest Micha]

Every time as a child I was alone, trying to tuck and hide my genitals, letting my natural self be expressed.

Every time I cried for no reason (with or without being reprimanded) cuz I wanted or needed to.

Every time I cried with a reason and got teased cuz "boys don't cry." Boys do cry, but this was an indicator of how wrong gender roles and stereotypes are, and sort of a starting point for how I feel about gender in general.

Every time I dressed up in a skirt.

Every time I just needed to be held and cuddled.

Pretty much anytime I was alone there was an indication that there was something "different" about how I was. It started young, but I didn't have vocabulary for it until over two decades later. I had no way of knowing, and no chance of embracing how wonderful it was to feel the way I felt.

[Guest agfrommd]

Every time I just needed to be held and cuddled.

Micha, don't most cis males need this too?

Actually I don't know, I've sort of assumed it. Maybe it's only mix-genders and MtF's. I can't very well do a survey

For myself:

I should have known when, as a kid, my favorite singer was Karen Carpenter.

I really, really should have known when I found myself suffering from anorexia in my 20's.

[Guest Micha]

Every time I just needed to be held and cuddled.

Micha, don't most cis males need this too?

Actually I don't know, I've sort of assumed it. Maybe it's only mix-genders and MtF's. I can't very well do a survey

For myself:

I should have known when, as a kid, my favorite singer was Karen Carpenter.

I really, really should have known when I found myself suffering from anorexia in my 20's.

Of course, just as much as cis males can enjoy romantic ballads or love stories. Everyone needs affection. In relation to social standards and gender stereotypes though, it's not something considered "normal." The difference between how things should be and how things are. While growing up, it was clear to me that this behavior was considered weak, unbecoming of a young man, and I should not feel insecure or vulnerable. It's more about how I didn't fit the standards for "male" and how my resentments towards gender roles took root. I consider myself gender variant not for the fact that I behave feminine or do feminine things, but for the fact that I reject binary gender roles/standards/stereotypes, and wish to live free of them. Those boxes no fit me.

Anything anyone could list should be considered "okay" for any sex or gender. No one should ever be made to feel shame or guilt for doing something not in line with their assigned gender.

Should. Key word here.

[Guest aleon515]

My understanding is that there is a really great incidence of anorexia in males. It is blamed on pressure to have a

perfect body shape. Of course, this is the last decade.

BTW, I'm guessing *any* behavior or group of behaviors is okay for any gender. This is all gender expression anyway isn't it.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Melancholy]

When people told me " Boy's don't.." and I thought it was stupid.

[Guest Alder]

oh! WHenever I'd get told "girls can't --------" -__-

[Guest Micha]

When people told me " Boy's don't.." and I thought it was stupid.

oh! WHenever I'd get told "girls can't --------" -__-

Folks, it's been summed up.

[Guest Refusing to choose]

When I started binding but still wearing female clothing, and utterly genderqueered makeup/accessories.

OR

When I refused to wear anything except my brothers hand-me-downs.

[Guest Alder]

.... ran into this pic of me from first grade (and I remember being completely THRILLED when mama let me cut my hair this short so I can wear it spiked) I feel I personified being a lil androgyne child well XD

[Guest Melancholy]

Oh! I know! When I thought stereotypical manliness sounded, as I vaguely recall putting it, "kind of crap."

[Guest agfrommd]

While growing up, it was clear to me that this behavior was considered weak, unbecoming of a young man, and I should not feel insecure or vulnerable.

I don't think I was ever told that, but I internalized it anyway. Maybe it was from the nth time that some bully said "oh, so now you're going to cry" because he knew I was.

Used to think it was cruel and limiting to expect this of young men.

Not so sure that it's expectation anymore. The American cis male is not shy about declaring what he doesn't like, and yet we don't hear cis males bellowing about how awful it is that they can't show weakness.

I'm beginning to consider the possibility that, in contrast to us, cis males like it this way.

[Guest Micha]

Alder, that is a wicked awesome pic.

I'm beginning to consider the possibility that, in contrast to us, cis males like it this way.

Not so sure about that myself. Possible, but I'm highly skeptical. Most men may not complain about the way they're raised and the expectations placed on them, though they may complain about any number of other things, but that may be another symptom of making manly men. Kinda not sure exactly how to say what I'd like to, but I suspect that a lot of men are so well conditioned and so used to the way things are, they don't realize what it's done to them. Or perhaps I'm more sensitive than the "average man" so I'm more aware of these things, where most others don't notice or care. Lotsa maybes. . .

I also feel that there is a serious problem that concerns men - violence. Many men deal with their negative emotions physically - whether it's manual labor, working out or another form of physical exertion, or it's actually hitting something. Obviously that last one is a serious problem (even if it's not a person, what's to stop it from being a person next time?). I see this as a consequence of that old fashioned notion that "boys don't cry." Basically boys are not taught to deal or cope with their emotions, but instead to "suck it up." Not healthy, and as time goes on, those pent up feelings find an out, and all too often, violently. Not every man is like this, but enough so to inspire social movements such as the white ribbon campaign, to re-educate men and work to end violence at the hands of men. Such a wide spread need for this reinforces my belief that most boys have been and still are being raised more as primitive beasts instead of compassionate people.

It's also not usually stated outright, but implied. "Quit crying," is pretty direct. A bully sayin "aw, ittle baby's gonna cwy?" is direct enough. But there were so many things I can't put a finger on, can't directly define, that made me feel inadequate and flawed. I'm not going to deny that some of it may have been my own interpretation, but I can't give myself that much credit. There was a whole environment that I grew up in that establishes boys and girls are very different, and should be made to stay that way.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Alder! What a CUTE baby androgyne you were!

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

I agree Micha.

I think a lot of men feel unable to speak up against the stereotypes they are expected to live in because they're afraid of the consequences rather than because they actually like and agree with them all. The ones I respect are the ones who are strong enough to speak up and disagree and I plan to be one of them. I plan to live as the kind of man I feel right being rather than being forced into what society or my upbringing say men are...I know that is in some ways easier to do say because I was brought up as female not male but it's difficult in it's own ways for both personal reasons and for reasons of being accepted into male communities as a 'real man'.

I'm sorry...I don't belong in this thread as an FTM rather than an androgyne but I felt I needed to agree with Micha and then I kinda waffled from there..

Gabe

[Guest Alder]

Alder, that is a wicked awesome pic.

I'm beginning to consider the possibility that, in contrast to us, cis males like it this way.

Not so sure about that myself. Possible, but I'm highly skeptical. Most men may not complain about the way they're raised and the expectations placed on them, though they may complain about any number of other things, but that may be another symptom of making manly men. Kinda not sure exactly how to say what I'd like to, but I suspect that a lot of men are so well conditioned and so used to the way things are, they don't realize what it's done to them. Or perhaps I'm more sensitive than the "average man" so I'm more aware of these things, where most others don't notice or care. Lotsa maybes. . .

I also feel that there is a serious problem that concerns men - violence. Many men deal with their negative emotions physically - whether it's manual labor, working out or another form of physical exertion, or it's actually hitting something. Obviously that last one is a serious problem (even if it's not a person, what's to stop it from being a person next time?). I see this as a consequence of that old fashioned notion that "boys don't cry." Basically boys are not taught to deal or cope with their emotions, but instead to "suck it up." Not healthy, and as time goes on, those pent up feelings find an out, and all too often, violently. Not every man is like this, but enough so to inspire social movements such as the white ribbon campaign, to re-educate men and work to end violence at the hands of men. Such a wide spread need for this reinforces my belief that most boys have been and still are being raised more as primitive beasts instead of compassionate people.

It's also not usually stated outright, but implied. "Quit crying," is pretty direct. A bully sayin "aw, ittle baby's gonna cwy?" is direct enough. But there were so many things I can't put a finger on, can't directly define, that made me feel inadequate and flawed. I'm not going to deny that some of it may have been my own interpretation, but I can't give myself that much credit. There was a whole environment that I grew up in that establishes boys and girls are very different, and should be made to stay that way.

The crying this is a bit of a subject I got stuck thinking about, even more so after speaking with my friend on things. He recently broke his back, and I've had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy and both of us felt total and utter shame at being in such pain that we cried. I was raised female, so was under much less stringent "can't cry" influences but I still feel horrible shame and like it's a weakness to cry and will do all that I can so that others don't actually witness me crying. Of course, I also have a very proud tough mother who had to raise her younger brothers more or less on her own since she was little, so that could be an influence...

There's also the thing of having no clue how to react to people crying around me, and just kind of stand there and pan their shoulder or such. bah, I can start rambling or such about things -sigh- so I'll shush now....

[Guest Juniper Blue]

While growing up, it was clear to me that this behavior was considered weak, unbecoming of a young man, and I should not feel insecure or vulnerable.

I don't think I was ever told that, but I internalized it anyway. Maybe it was from the nth time that some bully said "oh, so now you're going to cry" because he knew I was.

Used to think it was cruel and limiting to expect this of young men.

Not so sure that it's expectation anymore. The American cis male is not shy about declaring what he doesn't like, and yet we don't hear cis males bellowing about how awful it is that they can't show weakness.

I'm beginning to consider the possibility that, in contrast to us, cis males like it this way.

I don't think that men like to be put into a box anymore than women do ... they may not complain because that could be seen as a sign of weakness in and of itslef. I was watching a TED talk by Brene' Brown ( PhD in Sociology) on Shame. The lecture dealt with issues like the fact that there remains a great deal of social pressure for men to not not be percieved as weak. Most people still equate a person's willingness to express vulnerabilty with weakness and so, men (in general) find that showing vulnerability has very negative social consequences. Most sadly, there is a direct relationship to a person's ability to show vulnerabilty and the abilty to make satisfying connections with other people. There is a strong correlation between shame and suicide, addiction,obesity, depression, compulsive spending and other serious problems. (Adult men have the highest rates of successful suicide.) So .. Do men prefer to not be able to express themselves freely witiout serious social consequence?? I would say the answer is "no."

I may write more about this TED Talk on Shame as it breaks down some very interesting differences in what is socially expected of men and women.

Best to All,

JB

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

JB, I'd be interested to hear more of that Talk on Shame.

My opinion is that the reason many men have those problems is a symptom that they are not happy living under the 'man rules' but they feel they have no option to express it in the ways that women are expected to express things (like talking about their feelings). Men are generally forced to either turn their feelings in on themselves destructively or turn them outward in an aggressive way (also destructively).

Writing that it strikes me just how male I am in that way even though I was brought up as a girl.

Alder, I am very similar with crying. I do cry at times but it seems to take far more to make me cry than it does for, say, my partner or other women I have observed. I have often seen my partner cry out of pain or frustration but although I experience very high levels of pain with my disability and stuff like that I never cry from it. It takes a lot to make me cry and when I do I'm deeply ashamed of it and will always try to stop people from seeing.

I have been told of times as a child when I would react to emotion by getting physically sick because I refused to allow myself to cry.

I wonder how much is to do with me being FTM and how much is to do with the fact that, despite being brought up as a girl I was rewarded for not showing my emotions and sometimes punished for showing them. Strange that some of my male qualities were actively crushed while some, like the emotions thing, were encouraged.

Again, I'm sorry for intruding but I'm finding this discussion interesting.

Gabe

[Guest Micha]

Oh stop apologizing Gabe, it's not like this is some gender variant only club, no boys or girls allowed type thing.

Prolly should start another topic though, as this is sort of a sub topic that took on a life of it's own.

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

lol ok no more apologizing. I was just in a 'sorry' kind of mood last night lol

Yes it would be good to have a new topic to discuss this more.

Gabe

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Good Post Gabe ... I can relate. You can find Brene' Browns "Listening to Shame" lecture on TED TALKS .. also I wrote some key points about it under agfommd's thread on "Men and Vulnerability" in the Androgyne Forum. Hope to see your thoughts posted on the subject over there ... this is facninating stuff!

[Guest Annabelle Anders]

Oh stop apologizing Gabe, it's not like this is some gender variant only club, no boys or girls allowed type thing.

Hahaha I can see it now! A big sign reading: You must be this androgynous to post.

Sorry ma'am, you are still too much of a ma'am

Hold on sir, your skirt doesn't fit, I think you best turn around

We are the no-extreme extremists!

Sorry, I just woke up...

I should've known when:

-I named my favorite X-men "mutant" as Mystique

-My female friends would get dumped and I would give them the "Men are pigs" speech

-I hated showing my legs because they were pale, I hated tanning my legs because they were hairy.

-I developed body conscious issues, (I had no idea why at the time, except I didn't like the one I was given) In hindsight, that is the most obious one.

-I compensated. (like, small pepe=big car compensation, but with gender) I had to hide the fact that I was so feminine by presenting myself as masculine as I could...or at least I thought I had to.

-I spent 2hrs before school trying to get my hair to do that "flippy" thing. Only to have it be a source of anxiety throughout the school day as it did not achieve what I wanted.

There are tons more, but these were my big ones.

-Anna

(Formerly Luna Selene. Gonna write a post about the name change soon.)