Men and vulnerability

[Guest agfrommd]

People asked for a new topic for discussing this so the "should've known" thread isn't dropped.

I don't think that men like to be put into a box anymore than women do ... they may not complain because that could be seen as a sign of weakness in and of itslef. I was watching a TED talk by Brene' Brown ( PhD in Sociology) on Shame. The lecture dealt with issues like the fact that there remains a great deal of social pressure for men to not not be percieved as weak. Most people still equate a person's willingness to express vulnerabilty with weakness and so, men (in general) find that showing vulnerability has very negative social consequences. Most sadly, there is a direct relationship to a person's ability to show vulnerabilty and the abilty to make satisfying connections with other people. There is a strong correlation between shame and suicide, addiction,obesity, depression, compulsive spending and other serious problems. (Adult men have the highest rates of successful suicide.) So .. Do men prefer to not be able to express themselves freely witiout serious social consequence?? I would say the answer is "no."

I may write more about this TED Talk on Shame as it breaks down some very interesting differences in what is socially expected of men and women.

Best to All,

JB

Juniper, I agree that men aren't always happy with the pressure not to show emotional vulnerability. But I wonder whether there's some calculation going on there. That so many cis men are so put off by the thought of dealing with feelings. (why? Scared of them? Conditioning? Don't know how? This mix-gendered androgyne is the wrong man to ask...) Is it possible that cis males are deciding that the minuses outweigh the plusses when it comes to dealing with feelings of fear/sadness/tenderness/etc.?

[Guest Micha]

Not being a "cis" male, I wouldn't know, but what I have experienced is that the boys being raised the same way I was felt that feeling was wrong, whether it was crying or vulnerability, or even contentedness. It almost seemed like if you weren't peed off, you weren't "right." We're talking about more than one generation here, fathers of fathers of fathers being raised to be strong and tough, that's a lot of influence. It gets to the point where, at least Ias an individual, cannot define where this train of thought comes from.

In the end, maybe most men like being miserable (and maybe what I see as misery is something else for them. . . hell, maybe they even like it), but I sure as sin don't. I guess I'm the wrong person to ask too. Perhaps I just want to believe that no one could actually want to be cold and heartless.

[Guest agfrommd]

Perhaps I just want to believe that no one could actually want to be cold and heartless.

I've never played football, but it's a great metaphor for masculinity, so I'll go with it.

Imagine, you're a football lineman. You want to win games, you want to get to the state championship, you want a scholarship to college, etc.

All that depends on your being able to erase the guy across the line from you. I mean, totally lay him out, so he's out of the play (out of the game would be nice too...). You hear the quarterback calling signals, and you look your opponent in the eye. And you see something there. Some vulnerability, some sadness, and you suddenly feel sorry for him, realize that if you win, then he loses, and you're about to make another human being unhappy.

See where I'm going with this? In so many of the competitive and aggressive roles that males play, even in our advanced society, compassion is a liability. Police, lawyers, fighter pilots, politicians, anyone in a competitive business, anyone angling for a promotion, all need to be able to best their competition without feeling bad about it. If a car salesman shed a tear for every competitor he took a sale away from, he wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning.

[Guest Micha]

Perhaps I just want to believe that no one could actually want to be cold and heartless.

I've never played football, but it's a great metaphor for masculinity, so I'll go with it.

Imagine, you're a football lineman. You want to win games, you want to get to the state championship, you want a scholarship to college, etc.

All that depends on your being able to erase the guy across the line from you. I mean, totally lay him out, so he's out of the play (out of the game would be nice too...). You hear the quarterback calling signals, and you look your opponent in the eye. And you see something there. Some vulnerability, some sadness, and you suddenly feel sorry for him, realize that if you win, then he loses, and you're about to make another human being unhappy.

See where I'm going with this? In so many of the competitive and aggressive roles that males play, even in our advanced society, compassion is a liability. Police, lawyers, fighter pilots, politicians, anyone in a competitive business, anyone angling for a promotion, all need to be able to best their competition without feeling bad about it. If a car salesman shed a tear for every competitor he took a sale away from, he wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning.

Tha's a fine example of the damaging effects of competition, and of capitalism, but that strengthens my belief that the way not only boys, but all people, are raised, is wrong and inherently bad for humanity. The survival of the fittest mindset is primitive and outdated. We may as well start eating out babies for fear of future competition as continue this path. So perhaps that's another cause of the current effect. People have been so scared of communism and any sort of act that supports the common good, that helps another instead of taking advantage of people in the name of self preservation, that since the 1940's people have been conditioned to screw each other over. Well, when the whole world starves to death an everyone else is dean, I suppose tha's when we'll have peace.

Sure, when put in a "if I don't take from them, I lose" situation, the obvious is to do what you need to in order to save yourself. It's very unrealistic though, when looking at real life (you know, outside of football). In reality, the more people who prosper, the better off everyone is. The current economic crisis? The one in the 70's? The one in the 30's? That's what competition and "survival of the fittest" brought us. Cooperation and individuals respecting other individuals rights, a community supporting each other in the name of self preservation, tha's a higher evolution, that's human progression. Laying out the other guy cuz if you don't, then you lose, that only occurs in primitive cultures and their primitive games.

[JJ]

There is some research that I read that indicates that men actually compartmentalize their feeling in a way that women don't. They separate parts of their lives and emotions -perhaps an evolutionary advantage from the caveman hunting days. Men can be compassionate and caring and I have seem many, many men cry and sacrifice themselves for others. But in our caveman type days men had to be able to separate themselves in order to continue to hunt effectively no matter what was happening and in addition they needed to test the men who hunted with them to be sure they measured up and would not be a liability and cause a loss of prey or worse an injury or death.

I think a lot of the way men express themselves-in fact the way women do as well-are still deeply rooted in the tens of thousands of years of evolution as hunters. Those who had traits that gave them an advantage survived to pass them on and the others didn't, Women were able to , and even perhaps had an advantage, in expressing emotion more openly because they needed to bond with one another in a different way-men bond and bond deeply as any veteran knows I am sure-but it is different. Women needed to see the whole picture as well while for men it was an advantage to think more linerally and in terms of the prey

The newest brain imaging techniques indicate that we all-male and female-feel a wide range of emotions -including the fact that women are as competitive as men-in totally different ways, And remember that historically in many, many societies the artists, the bards, the storytellers and the poets were men. They were able to express emotions fully. The way is different is all, Society has to some extent magnified the negative aspects of that

And I have know many people who were policemen and lawyer, firefighters and even car salesmen who were deeply compassionate at times and in appropriate circumstances for them. But life, and people, are perhaps too complex to do more than draw very generalized conclusions to which there are perhaps more exceptions than actual occurrences. Media and our stereotyping culture that results from it make that particularly difficult too because much of what we see is only a tiny corner of reality or a myth based on another myth. So it seems to me

Johnny

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

That's interesting Johnny. I love learning scientific stuff like that.It makes sense when explained like that.

Gabe

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I am so glad you got this thread going agformmd ..

I was thinking about the issue today and wanted to add a note to you to explain that I can see where you were coming from. I know of guys like this who seem to not want to open up. My twin brother is this type of person. If I get too serious, he turns the conversation into a joke (often at my expense) and If the conversation gets too "thick", I may even get a BURP as his response.

Fortunately, most of my guy friends are skilled linguists and speak freely and openly. Even with this though ... only one cries in front of me ... Oddly my brother can cry ... he actually cries easily but he cannot communicate with words.

When I have spoken to my brother about the dominant style with which he lives his life ... he says that it is better that he is the guy in charge. He worked as a Sergeant in the Army ... so ... "I get that."

Did any of you play "DOG PILE" when you were kids?? I think that the game of dominance is like this .. no one wants to end up at the very bottom of the pile gasping for air and most guys will do what they have to be as close to the top as possible.

As far as social pressure … Brene' Brown PhD described a scenario in her lecture “Listening to Shame” that I feel sums up the experience ( I have paraphrased it to avoid copyright infringement concerns but you may find the lecture on TED Talks.)

At a book signing a man approached Dr. Brown and asked him to sign 3 of her books for his wife and daughters. He asked why her research never mentioned men she responded because she does not study men. He replied “Well, that is convenient.” He then went on to explain that men get the EDITED beaten out of them if they reach out and show vulnerability and that his family would rather see him “Die on his white horse than fall down.” He explained that the social pressure is not greatest from the stereotypical sources (other men) but is most intensely inflicted by the women in his life.

Dr. Brown went on after that conversation to include men in her studies.

In her lecture she also sited a study by Mahalik at Boston College that delineates the women and men must do in the United States to conform to social norms and the lists were as follows:

Women: Be nice, thin, and modest and use all methods available to enhance one’s appearance.

Men: Always show emotional control, put work first, and pursue status and violence.

I feel that men are fearful of associating with the characteristics of vulnerability which are: being exposed, appearing to not have all of the answers, and taking emotional risks. All of these things may cause them to appear weak in a society that equates expressing vulnerability with weakness.

I think that the answer to helping men to empower themselves lies in educating children (and adults) in the fact that all human beings are imperfect and therefore experience shame (with the exception of sociopaths) and that it takes great courage to face this shame and to realize that we are “Good Enough” that we are worthy of receiving empathy and that we are capable of being empathetic to others. We need to educate children (and adults) that it is courageous to express vulnerability… it is courageous to be authentic. And that the expressing vulnerability by being authentic is the path to living fully as balanced and healthy human beings.

We must dispel the myth that vulnerability is a manifestation of weakness and teach instead the truth that the person who is willing to show vulnerability is the strongest and most courageous of all.

A Whole-Hearted Hug to ALL,

JB

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Did any of you play "DOG PILE" when you were kids?? I think that the game of dominance is like this .. no one wants to end up at the very bottom of the pile gasping for air and most guys will do what they have to be as close to the top as possible.

I'm still not sure about this paragraph ... The men that I have in my life are not of this variety... but overall?? I am not sure ... perhaps only if one looks at social dominance of "elite" males or what is sometimes referred to as "the patriarchy" ... but the men that are in my life woudl rather opt out of this system and are working to be free of its constraints (and for equality fro ALL, in general.)

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Did any of you play "DOG PILE" when you were kids?? I think that the game of dominance is like this .. no one wants to end up at the very bottom of the pile gasping for air and most guys will do what they have to be as close to the top as possible.

I think that most guys should be replaced with some people ...

I think that there is a missing link here that I am not fully connecting .. as there are women who are invested in this structure who assist in perpetuating it and are also afraid of change. (I am thinking of the Dad at the book signing.) His wife and daughter were very invested in his stoicism, even though it was not a healthy dynamic and caused suffering to the Father.

[Guest Juniper Blue]

I'm starting a new thread on Women and Dominance/ Women ans Power (in the Androgyne Forum)

[Guest Risu]

This is an extremely interesting thread Afrommd and JB.

I know a few women personally who only want the most macho of guys. As you described above about the father who felt more social pressures from his wife and daughter to appear tough and "stoic", I can see this being very very true. I think it is a little less common than it was perhaps 40 or more years ago but its hard to say. I've only ever associated myself closely with open minded men and women who never usually put such expectations on me or anyone else around them.

But I have known women who only want the most manly of men as a mate (that comes with living in a military community). A man who never shows emotion, extremely fit and generally bigotted but then this kind of narrow mindedness is a form of bigotry in itself I guess.

Personally (and not just for my safety but because this is how I feel, perhaps from being open minded, perhaps from being this way when being forced to live as male) I prefer a guy who is in touch with his emotions, who is alright with crying and would allow himself to cry in front of me. A guy who embraces his feminine side or typically feminine traits is fine by me, though in all honesty I would prefer to be the most feminine one in the relationship xD Uber macho manly behaviour is a major turn off for me. I appreciate kindness and softness far more than I do constant hardness and in the case of men I feel that showing emotion is actually a greater sign of strength and courage than is emotional control and coldness.

Of course this may have a lot to do with my father and the way he raised me and behaves himself. I am sooooo glad I am more like my mother and in all honesty, looking at things, this thread has pretty much lead me to understand why my parents broke up. My father was always emotionally cold and distant, even to my mother and he worked out of town and never made her feel loved or important when he was away and my mother being an expressive, loving person eventually couldn't handle that. Everything clicks now o.o

So my father easily made his behaviour flat out disgusting and then tried to force me to act the same which is the absolute opposite of everything I feel inside. At the risk of sounding too accepting of gender binary here, I am very very femme. I like soft and frilly, and I love pink, etc.

At the end of the day I don't think masculinity (or femininity) in and of itself is bad at all, but when its based on the outdated socially constructed ideas of how men and women should or should not act and when it is too far to one extreme or the other that is where problems begin to arise. I can speak from experience that to varying degrees these things are reinforced by society in various ways, pushing men to be hyper masculine.

I believe there are (as others here pointed out) entirely different ways in which men and women process things and I am completely okay with that and accept that there are indeed inborn, intrinsic inclinations that are masculine or feminine and trying to completely discourage those does more harm than good. Everyone should be free to express what comes naturally to them and be accepted for it.

Ultimately live and let live.

*Hugs*

~Jade.

[Michelle 2010]

I think a good case can be made that women continue to be attracted to the man as, ultimately, the Protector...even beyond the Hunter/Gatherer. While women can find their way in the world educationally, intellectually and financially through the professions available to them today, it may be that on a fundemental basis they want to know they have a rock they can lean on and protect them... It may be like the phenomenon the automotive industry discovered in the 90's where women snapped up the SUV's because, as established through focus groups and research, those vehicles gave them a sense of security and made them feel empowered. They never needed what SUV's offered, but they felt safer in a world they perceived as potentially dangerous.

Women have always been the ones to be on the receiving end of violence, poverty, abandonment with children, etc etc. So the idea of having a protector in a potentially harsh world still seems attractive. They want a stone baracade between them and their children when bad things are coming over the horizon... And those women are willing to demand that role of their men...

Therefore, for transgendered males not bent on transitioning, many women in the "gene pool" may be willing to accept them as friends, but not mates. Many... not all.

Btw, if you have never visited an elderly nursing home, you will find that the population is 85-90% female. The price of being stereotypically male is paid at some point.

Michelle

[Guest Juniper Blue]

Amazing responses Jade and Michelle. Michelle, I love the SUV metaphor. And good point about the roles of Protector (and Provider) stress and longevity.

Jade ... In Dr. Brown's TED lecture on the "Power of Vulnerability" she explained that for men, shame is rooted in the fear that they may be perceived as weak ... one of the ways that pole numb shame is by clinging to rigid beliefs ... needing to be "RIGHT" ( Hmmm .. sounds like Bigot Mix?? Just add social pressure and stir.) I am happy to see that you survived Jade and that you are loving what you love, freely without shame. YAY for PINK!

[Guest agfrommd]

And I have know many people who were policemen and lawyer, firefighters and even car salesmen who were deeply compassionate at times and in appropriate circumstances for them. But life, and people, are perhaps too complex to do more than draw very generalized conclusions to which there are perhaps more exceptions than actual occurrences. Media and our stereotyping culture that results from it make that particularly difficult too because much of what we see is only a tiny corner of reality or a myth based on another myth. So it seems to me

Johnny,

I didn't mean to imply that police, lawyers and firefighters were not compassionate. I was only using them as an example of why some men might find it more convenient not to have to deal with feelings.

I'm really sorry for not making this clearer.

Tha's a fine example of the damaging effects of competition, and of capitalism, but that strengthens my belief that the way not only boys, but all people, are raised, is wrong and inherently bad for humanity.

MIcha, I'm with you that it would be nice to live in an economic system that was not powered by greed. Not to mention much more stable.

But I have to confess that I like some of the things that our system has given us. I like that companies are competing with each other to make better hybrid cars, more fuel efficient light bulbs, that my local supermarkets are trying to compete for my business by offering fresher produce, etc.

I've stayed away from that. I switched careers from being an engineering manager (a job I needed to compete with others to advance from) to being a school teacher. But I know people who LOVE being competitive in their jobs and far be it from me to condemn them, especially since I'm only too ready to enjoy the fruits (quite literally) of their work.

I guess I'll just have to settle for living in a world with a balance between the competitive and the cooperative.