What Makes You 'gay' If You're Transgendered?

[Guest KristinaJ]

If a pre-op MTF likes men does this make that MTF gay?

If a pre-op FTM likes women does this make that FTM lesbian?

And same questions for post-op.

[Guest Emily1]

here are the 3 possibilities:

1. If it is current physical body that matters, pre-op MTF liking men would be gay and post-op MTF liking men would be straight
   
2. If it is original physical body that matters, any MTF liking men would be gay
   
3. If it is gender that matters, any MTF liking men would be straight
   

There is no way to decide, so the best ways to react are either to ignore labeling anyone or to simply pick which one you like most. Personally, I like the third, so I am lesbian (i love saying that)!

[Guest julia_d]

Boxes... I have always been Bi.. so I could be seen as straight or bi which ever way you want to look at me.

Does it matter? I think people are just what they are and there is no need to go around sticking vague and limiting labels on them.

[Guest Kelly Ann]

Hi Kristina...Emily is right...especially on #3.Why limit yourself? To whom and/or what ideology do you 'owe' yourself to? Ahhhhhhhhhhhmmmmm...perhaps YOU?Just be safe,sane and responsible (what?????) to yourself first and everything else will fall into place by itself. Hugs, Kelly Ann

[Guest Sofiadragon]

I am a pre-op MTF & I have considered myself to be a lesbian since I was about 16 or so.

[Guest Silver]

The way I see it is this:

Those who identify as females and are mainly attracted to males are most likely heterosexual. Female identified people who are mainly attracted to women are most likely lesbians. Of course, they could be bisexual too, or pansexual, or something else, and just like one sex/gender most. It all depends on how YOU see YOUR self. This is what I think, but there may be mtfs (pre or post op) who disagree, or ftms who identify as lesbians. How others would label you depends a lot on YOUR situation, but in the end its how YOU see yourself.

Also, I personally do not think pre/post/non op status is a factor in sexuality. But then again, I could be wrong.

[Guest Jack Solomon]

Kristina J, I hope you don't mind, but I thought I would weigh in. Personally, I would not consider a pre-op transsexual gay for being attracted to the opposite sex if you're factoring in their gender into the equation. So my answers to your questions would be "no" for both. Gender changes your relation to the physical body (obviously) and this includes your relation to sex.

For someone looking at us from a societal perspective however, yes, they might think us gay no matter what we did (HRT, SRS, etc) just based on the body we were born in. A lot of people just think of us as 'confused' about our sexual orientation and that we are just doing this for some social justification. Unfortunately, not even SRS will make these types of people see an MTF transsexual who is attracted to guys as finally a straight female either.

A gay female is attracted to a woman differently than a straight male is attracted to woman, and the same is true for gay males and straight females. There can be some similarities or overlap just like there is with some straight women being masculine or straight men being feminine, but the states are fundamentally different. So if someone is just considering the physical body, I can see them calling a person gay or straight just based on the body before SRS, but I don't feel this fits properly.

To prevent confusion, I refer to pre-op transsexuals with the same labels I provide for everyone else. I refer to a MTF as female, and if she's attracted to women, well, I consider her attracted to women (lesbian). I dislike the labels gay and straight and usually only use them when its easier to do so in conversation, but when neccessary I apply them in the same way when referring to transsexuals.

Stressing over these labels and how others see your attraction to males or females based on your physical appearance and body can drive you crazy. I really don't reccomend it. I know from personal experience that it can be hard not to, though, especially if we're still perceived as our birth sex by everyone and their mother.

Hopefully my post is not too long and I don't come off like I'm trying to find fault with your question. Every question's a good one and I merely wanted to give my take on it.

Solomon

[Guest amie]

Please read the following and think for yourselves: I consider myself to be very much a girl and as well as heterosexual. Despite being damned to a male body, I sincerely tried to make it work with the girls and it always proved to be a pain in the donkey. Why? Because they want the same thing I want, in both the physical and emotional aspects. So as opposed to effin' lying to myself and subjecting myself to much uneccassary abuse, I'll do without until I'm able to trans. if I ever do trans. Howz that for straight/crooked, gay/irate, or whatever other socially acceptable label you all wanna stamp on it?

[Guest Evan_J]

A gay female is attracted to a woman differently than a straight male is attracted to woman

I never knew/ thought out/ examined that ....

You actually dropped a brick on me...made me realize how much I was never female.

But on with the topic....Its like Jack and Amie said (and I reeeally love the way Amie said it cuz it was full of zeal ) The only way you could call an mtf (in my book) "straight" for being attracted to women is if you are negating that persons identity as a female.

And you would have to be telling a FtM they are not male in order to make them fit the label of "lesbian" at all since the term requires two women not a woman and a man. The crazy thing about us (and I include myself in this cuz it applied to me too) is "at first" (if you "tried to be lesbian" ) when you first are wrapping your mind around all that it means to realize you actually are male not just masculiine in this form, that you still go through "not understanding" how come you and the lesbians are at odds with one another lol . FINALLY you go "ooooh they want a woman" lol. Amazing that knowing all the things I chase about a woman when I'm chasing one I never applied the fact that I had none of those qualities, mental compositions, or states of being. It demonstrates how we ourselves are "brainwashed" that someones gender is exclusively dictated by what body you see.

An FtM can never be a lesbian, unless they are not FtM. It goes to the definition .

[Guest amie]

Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.

[Guest silverpetals]

somebody asked a slightly similar question on yahoo answers a few days ago. it was about the relationship in the film 'soldier's girl', and whether or not the soldier was gay for being in love with calpernia addams.

i spent too much time writing an excessively long response, and since recycling is mostly good, a lot of this post will be copypasta. i'm sorry - i'll try to adapt it so it fits better. it's basically just my lame thoughts about sexuality, and how it relates to this situation. it does tend to deviate from what you asked, but i hope it can answer the question.

~

I think that this touches upon two entwined issues, one of identity and the other of sexual attraction.

Probably most importantly: a trans woman isn't a man, regardless of genitalia. If she is with a man, to refer to such a romance as "gay" is just as illogical and weird as it would be to do so with any other relationship involving a woman and a man.

Yes, she is transsexual. But that shouldn't invalidate her gender, even if she has a penis or whatever.

If she is seen and loved by him as a woman, she is a woman within the relationship. If she sees herself and identifies as a woman, she is a woman in any other context.

There probably isn't any need for me to say this, because I'm sure that you are already well aware - but a gay relationship in this case would be between two men. There aren't two men involved; there is only one.

But in reality, many people will never see past genitalia, will use that to claim that the woman is 'biologically male', and will only view it as a relationship between two males.

But sexuality isn't about biological sex, not at all. A gay relationship is between two women or two men; a straight relationship is between a woman and a man. In neither of those is biological sex mentioned; in neither is it relevant. "Male" and "female" may often be considered analogous to "man" and "woman", but they have different meanings: a reference to sex and a reference to gender.

And sex isn't gender; although the terms are seen by some to be interchangeable, they are separate but linked. Under normal circumstances we relate to each other in terms of gender, never in terms of sex. We enter into relationships with people, with partners - not with intangible strands of proteins that we can't see, not with Xs or Ys. And as this can be applied to a person's genetics, it can also be scaled-up to apply to their genitals.

Basically, the man in this sort of relationship has fallen in love with a person, not a penis. And that person is female in mind, female in identity, and female in gender.

The fact that she is 'male' in chromosomes and genitals is pretty much irrelevant within the context of sexual attraction - unless an individual is attracted to female genetics more than to female people:

"Oh, that second X chromosome is just sooo sexy..." - you know, I don't quite see it.

He as a man, is in love with her as a woman - from your perspective, do you see anything inherently homosexual in that statement?

You pretty much said it yourself: she is "a woman who happens to have male genitalia" [his quotation]. Regardless of genitalia, a romantic relationship between a woman and a man is heterosexual.

[totally out of context here, sorry] In the end, the soldier never saw himself to be gay for loving Calpernia. The men who murdered him for his love did.

~

i probably should have summarised it as: a trans woman is a woman, that's her gender, love operates on gender not sex, love between a man and a woman isn't gay, all this also applies to trans men if reversed, blah blah blah...

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Late reply - but here goes (I can never resist these type topics!)

Hummmm. I am MTF, but just starting transition. I don't have enough HRT in me as yet to rework my thought processes - if that ever happens - so this is more opinion than experience.

I am married now and hope to stay with my wife - but we are older. My pilot light went out about five years ago (Diabetes doen't help ya sexually at all) and the permanent loss of male performance is not a big thing for me. My wife and I have worked out a plan of ... alternate ways... humm... to please her. She is awaiting to see what ... alternate ways ... will please me as I progress. I am not certain about SRS at this time, so there are still some questions on this matter.

Does this make us potentially lesbian? You know what - I don't care what it makes us!

She asked - do you want sex as a woman - YES - but I was never a young woman - and I am past being a young woman in body, married to a loving husband.

Does it make me homosexual that I am disappointed in not having sex as a woman? No - if I had had a vagina, I would have wanted to relate to men in having sex. I sorta believe a post op T-woman is naturally going to want to function as a female. Why have a vagina and be attractive to men, if you don't have sex with men? Well - perhaps if you are hung-up on your pre-op orientations, which I would think is unfortunate.

And in my dreams I often have girl sex. But I am a girl in these dreams. Secret homosexual, I don't think so, I am really a girl in mind and soul anyway. Again - who cares.

And my point is - IT DOESN'T MATTER. As a MTF, FTM or points in between, you need to do what your heart tells you to do. Nobody really cares anyway, they are only curious, I think - those that are outside our world.

Go where you need to go.

Thats all I have to say 'bout that (Forrest Gump).

[Guest chibi_usa]

WOAH! That totally like confused me!!!! Ok... If I think guys are CUTE!!<Not anything else! Just cute!<<<<< What does that make me? O_o btw I think of myself as a girl ^^ and yes I do like girls.

[Guest Neelam]

Hi everyone

Starting here my first post...I'm a "not sure" gender, somewhere in the middle I suppose. I have a female-androgyne look, FTM orientated.( if it doesn't makes sense to you, I have to admit I'm not quite sure either )

My SO is MTF, she is my lovely girl !! yeah I know, funny family

back to the subject..... I feel androgyne, I see my SO as a woman, so if a label has to be picked, I see myself as a lesbian

Neelam

[Guest Evan_J]

WOAH! That totally like confused me!!!! Ok... If I think guys are CUTE!!<Not anything else! Just cute!<<<<< What does that make me? O_o btw I think of myself as a girl ^^ and yes I do like girls.

It makes you a person who likes girls and thinks guys are cute

[Guest mia 1]

You know at this time in my life I have sex most often with myself. I've asked quite a few women if they enjoy sex alone or with a partner,most have answered, by themselves,so is that a whole new category, or are we all Lesbians at heart. ? Sounds kind of superficial, but it is a sensuous thought.

[Guest Dutchie]

This is one thread I have been avoiding, I didn't want to turn it into yet another loooooooooooooong discussion.

(I wonder how many people think "it's way too much text to read what that crazy girl writes").

I'll try to behave! No promises though!!

I want to throw out the horrible words Gay and Lesbian. Gay means Happily, carefree, fun-loving or pleasure-seeking, originates from the French word Gai. Why on earth it has turned into homosexual, I don't know, I suspect it was the community itself, since the hetero world was so uptight. I couldn't find much etymology references, but it's going back to around 1930 for US-English.

So back to the thread... What makes you homosexual if you're transgendered?

Let me drag some dictionary (Chambers 21st Century) definitions into it:

homosexual noun a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex. adj 1 having a sexual attraction to people of the same sex. 2 relating to or concerning a homosexual or homosexuals.

heterosexual adj 1 having a sexual attraction to people of the opposite sex. 2 said of a relationship: between a man and a woman. noun a heterosexual person.

bisexual adj 1 sexually attracted to both males and females. Often colloq shortened to bi. 2 having the sexual organs of both male and female. Also hermaphrodite. noun a bisexual person or organism, etc.

asexual adj 1 denoting reproduction that does not involve sexual processes, and in which genetically identical offspring are produced from a single parent, eg budding of yeasts or vegetative propagation in plants. 2 without functional sexual organs. 3 lacking in sexuality.

Ok, those are the "official" definitions we are categorizing with....

First I'm going to upset everybody: they are talking about SEX, not GENDER!!! Oh shock, horror!!

Ha, got your attention now!

Why do we limit ourselves to the definitions above? Aren't we already trying to escape the binary gender issues? Why do we try to stick to binary labels again in this case?

I think most of the people on this board are .... .... (drum roll please?) ... ... none of the above!

Why? Take the definition of homosexual and translate that to 'our world'...

"having a sexual attraction to people of the same sex" = "having a sexual attraction to people of the same gender-identity"

So if I'm a MtF and I am attracted to MtFs, that makes me a homosexual... If I happen to be attracted to everything but MtFs, what am I? Heterosexual? No, it's binary! If I'm heterosexual I am attracted to FtMs! That *is* my opposite.

See the problem?

Ok, so those are not going to help us... Bisexual is again too bi-nary.

So the only one still standing is asexual... That I'm not, I'm not lacking sexuality.

To solve the problem, I thought of a quite few definitions (amazing how creative one can get on this subject), and only two seem to be applicable:

omnisexual sexual attracted to all gender varieties;

multisexual sexual attracted to more than one different gender varieties, but not all.

I am at least multisexual, perhaps even omni. For me it is the personality that attracts me before anything sexual. Once I'm attracted to the personality, I actually don't care about what is his/her gender identity and sexual expression.

And in reply to mia, if you love yourself, I think it could be "autophilia"... (auto is Greek for self, phylia is love, subtracted from the term autogynephilia).

Final thought, how about just "sexual" and "asexual"? Seems fine to me, it covers what it needs to cover, who's business is it anyway??

[Guest sara w.]

I feel like it matters on your mental gender

if your a FTM and you like guys your gay

if your like me, a MTF and like guys your straight

[Guest joanna09]

Oh Wow,

Hey guys have you had a good look at this site and seen the replies and really took them in!!! Confusing the issue its down right complicated. My attitude is live and live you be what you want to be as long as your not harming someone. At the first I thought I was gay but I am and still bisexual Gosh darned I hate all these titles you do what you feel comfortable with I am MTF when I become a real woman will I go to bed with another woman or a guy, my answer to that is how I feel at that moment in time. Of course I know there will be MTF who just want to meet a guy and of course FTM the opposite, each to their own but please don't complicate the issue.

Jo

[Guest amie]

Oh Wow,

Hey guys have you had a good look at this site and seen the replies and really took them in!!! Confusing the issue its down right complicated. My attitude is live and live you be what you want to be as long as your not harming someone. At the first I thought I was gay but I am and still bisexual Gosh darned I hate all these titles you do what you feel comfortable with I am MTF when I become a real woman will I go to bed with another woman or a guy, my answer to that is how I feel at that moment in time. Of course I know there will be MTF who just want to meet a guy and of course FTM the opposite, each to their own but please don't complicate the issue.

Jo

Cosigner! Right here on the title/label part. We're supposed to be some of the most free-like thinkers in existance. Not to be witch-like or anything, but this is right up there with The TS/TG Comm. raisin' hell over The Silence Of The Lambs when they did. Come on peeps, we're far better than this.

[Guest Sarah Marie]

Let me drag some dictionary (Chambers 21st Century) definitions into it:

homosexual noun a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex. adj 1 having a sexual attraction to people of the same sex. 2 relating to or concerning a homosexual or homosexuals.

heterosexual adj 1 having a sexual attraction to people of the opposite sex. 2 said of a relationship: between a man and a woman. noun a heterosexual person.

bisexual adj 1 sexually attracted to both males and females. Often colloq shortened to bi. 2 having the sexual organs of both male and female. Also hermaphrodite[/u]. noun a bisexual person or organism, etc.

asexual adj 1 denoting reproduction that does not involve sexual processes, and in which genetically identical offspring are produced from a single parent, eg budding of yeasts or vegetative propagation in plants. 2 without functional sexual organs. 3 lacking in sexuality.

Ok, those are the "official" definitions we are categorizing with....

First I'm going to upset everybody: they are talking about SEX, not GENDER!!! Oh shock, horror!!

Dutchie -- Excellent post for which many thanks. However, the dictionary you cite from is out of date on the two definitions highlighted in bold. First, the correct term for a person having some sexual organs of both males and females is intersexed, not bisexual. Plus the term hermaphrodite is no longer used in medicine. Second, an asexual is a human who does not feel sexually attracted to either men OR women.

Thus, it seems to me that the best way to summarize interpersonal attractions might be as follows:

Homosexual -- a person sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with the same gender identity.

Heterosexual -- a person sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with the opposite gender identity.

Asexual -- a person who does not feel sexually (or romantically) attracted to other humans regardless of gender identity.

[Guest Emily1]

Dutchie -- Excellent post for which many thanks. However, the dictionary you cite from is out of date on the two definitions highlighted in bold. First, the correct term for a person having some sexual organs of both males and females is intersexed, not bisexual. Plus the term hermaphrodite is no longer used in medicine. Second, an asexual is a human who does not feel sexually attracted to either men OR women.

Thus, it seems to me that the best way to summarize interpersonal attractions might be as follows:

Homosexual -- a person sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with the same gender identity.

Heterosexual -- a person sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with the opposite gender identity.

Asexual -- a person who does not feel sexually (or romantically) attracted to other humans regardless of gender identity.

the one problem with the terms used here is that they are dependent on the sex (or gender) of the person we are talking about. Using the words gender identity instead of sex solves the problem of TS people, but what about androgynes or intersexeds. My proposal (using terms my friend Rey (Itzika) found online) is:

gynephiliac -- a person sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with a female gender identity.

androphiliac -- a person sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with a male gender identity.

bisexual -- a person (approximately) equally sexually (or romantically) attracted to someone with a either gender identity (this would often include people near the middle of the masculine-feminine scale).

(Wikipedia PWNS!!!!!)

-Emily

[Guest Dutchie]

Thanks Emily! Or rather Rey (Itzika).

I like the three you have found!

It's missing some though... It's still too binary... Ah well, I can live with these anyway.

[Guest My_Genesis]

A gay female is attracted to a woman differently than a straight male is attracted to woman, and the same is true for gay males and straight females.

(I know I'm way late lol)

Can you elaborate on that?

I have read about ftm's who are attracted to women who say that they prefer more feminine women. There was also a ftm who said when he used to go into lesbian bars they would tell him his taste is too "straight female." That's kinda how I am too...in a more literal sense than just the being attracted to feminine women, I'm naturally most attracted to straight women. In a way I have "straightdar" with women - so far, it hasn't failed me. lol. If i find someone attractive, they're straight. And I've done that with at least a dozen girls. So yeah, just wondering if that's what you meant by that statement.

ANYWAY...back to business...honestly I think y'all are making this way more complicated and confusing than it should be.

Maybe that's because I base everything on science though. I just go by the brain. If you're mtf, you have a female brain. Your brain is in charge of your gender identity as well as your sexual orientation. (Some refuse to believe there is real proof of this but for me whatever the research papers say goes ) So, female-wired brain attracted to women = lesbian. Female wired brain attracted to men = hetero. Male wired brain attracted to men = gay. Male wired brain attracted to women = hetero. And yeah, wherever I say "girls" that can include transwomen, wherever I say "men" that can include transmen (although I suppose this can also be a matter of personal taste..lol) And obviously for either one if you're attracted to both guys and girls that would be bisexual.

I realize I do tend to be pretty absolute with this stuff but that's how I see it. The brain happens to be the largest sex organ

[Guest Christy.dancer]

Newbie here... but I'd love to toss in some random thoughts.

I live in the 'burbs of Seattle. If you've never been here, think "San Francisco -- but without even any TRACE of Republicans". It's beyond merely broad-minded. You can find every flavor, color, stripe, hue, and tone of gender and sexuality here, from flannel work-shirt wearing macho stevadores (many of whom happen to be genetic females) to fashion model lesbians, the lether-and-whip crowd, and people who only get off watching women in 4 inch red stilettos squash bugs.

I'm a beginning male-to-female transsexual who's modestly attracted to men (actually, only one male right now) and is not sexually turned-on by women. In a simple, 1950's world (anyone see the AMC TV show, "Mad Men"?), you were either male (and sexually attracted to females) or female (vice versa).

Then it got complicated. Suddently you could be male and attracted to males... female and attracted to females....

Then someone got the idea of adding bisexuality. (Woody Allen said it doubled your chance of getting a date on Saturday night.)

THEN you could be a MTF attracted to males, or a MTF attracted to females.... etc. etc.

I'm not a math major, but I believe this is called a "power function". Graph it, and you rather quickly end up with an infinity of possibilities.

I like what someone on this thread said... "Be Yourself. Everyone Else is Taken." Amen to that, brothers, sisters, and whomever else is reading this.