What difference does the APA have in your life?

[Guest KimberlyF]

I have read numerous times about the excitement over the APA's recent statements on GID, etc.

Because of course now it's not a disorder if we have dysphoria.

Did anyone suddenly feel more sane one morning this month only to find out about the APA's new position and then the sudden feelings made sense?

On Friday, I received one of my letters for surgery from a therapist. In it I was diagnosed with GID even after the big APA announcement. How could this happen? She works with the DSM and the current version on the street is IV. She must still think I'm insane, though she's never treated me that way?

So if there is a mixup at the printers will certain people wait longer for this validation?

What did this announcement do for your personal self-esteem?

And anyway the APA wants to frame it, GD is still going to be listed in their next DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

What difference does this make in my life one way or the other?

[Guest Maria_B]

Thats a depressing way to look at things.

For some people, yes, it is nice to know you're not considered to have a Mental Disorder.

Perhaps they should be allowed to enjoy that?

[Drea]

I tend to think denying reality is a bad.

Having a mental disorder is not the same as being mentally ill, it doesn't bother me as all.

Many of the major mental disorders have congruant brain structure differences. Schizophrenia as an example, so should schizophrenia be removed as a mental illness?

I think it is a matter of semantics, mental issues are medical issues, what is the big deal.

What I find sad is all the loss that occurs of trans people who, while saying the accept themselves, can't accept the idea that most people don't consider this "normal" and spend enormuous efforts trying to get others to accept it as normal, that they are just normal and ultimatly don't get acceptance because of demands for acceptance rather than dealing with the self esteem issues that would provide so much greater rewards and result in less loss during the "transition" process.

[Carolyn Marie]

The proposed changes to the DSM (the new version isn't published yet) aren't meant to make people with gender dysphoria feel better, or feel different. We aren't the target audience. The changes are being made to recognize that it is a condition, not a disorder, and therefore to reduce if not eliminate the common perception that transfolk are mentally ill. The changes are being made to reduce the incidence of discrimination, to reduce the incidence of transfolk being wrongly categorized by the medical establishment and the general public, and reduce the incidence of people in sensitive positions losing their jobs or security clearances.

If you don't think those are worthy and important goals, that's your right, Kimberly. I personally think its a great step forward. Will it bring peace to the world and sunny skies forever? Nope. Will it have all of the effects I mentioned above? Probably not, especially not at first. Is it a good beginning. I think so.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

The proposed changes to the DSM (the new version isn't published yet) aren't meant to make people with gender dysphoria feel better, or feel different. We aren't the target audience. The changes are being made to recognize that it is a condition, not a disorder, and therefore to reduce if not eliminate the common perception that transfolk are mentally ill. The changes are being made to reduce the incidence of discrimination, to reduce the incidence of transfolk being wrongly categorized by the medical establishment and the general public, and reduce the incidence of people in sensitive positions losing their jobs or security clearances.

If you don't think those are worthy and important goals, that's your right, Kimberly. I personally think its a great step forward. Will it bring peace to the world and sunny skies forever? Nope. Will it have all of the effects I mentioned above? Probably not, especially not at first. Is it a good beginning. I think so.

Carolyn Marie

Lol...yeah, that's exactly what I said. In fact I don't think I even mentioned my position on the APA's change. Could you quote the line in my post where I state if Im for it or against it?

The key for me is that if something happens and they reverse their position or even prior to their announcement I didn't measure my self-worth by the APA.

[Guest LizMarie]

The difference it makes is that it is no longer a mental illness and cannot be used against an individual in a court, for purposes such as custody battles and such.

[Guest KimberlyF]

The difference it makes is that it is no longer a mental illness and cannot be used against an individual in a court, for purposes such as custody battles and such.

Is this happening in your life? I've read stories of this coming up in the courts like this, but also read of people getting their surgery paid for because it was a mental illness.

I don't know of anyone personally who have had either. But I've always been more concerned with the AMA laying out a treatment plan than the APA.

[Carolyn Marie]

What difference does this make in my life one way or the other?

No, you expressed no opinion on the changes in the DSM, Kim. None at all. Can't imagine where i got that idea from.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

What difference does this make in my life one way or the other?

No, you expressed no opinion on the changes in the DSM, Kim. None at all. Can't imagine where i got that idea from.

Carolyn Marie

That is a question. I want people to tell me. This is a discussion thread. It's not on the suicide board. It has a question in the title. If you can't defend your position against me without putting words in my mouth, maybe you don't have a strong argument? I am, according to the words you put in my mouth, pro-trans discrimination. Do you believe that?

[Guest Maria_B]

And why does discussion need argument, Kimberly? That seems a very odd thing to say. Discussion is not debate and is not arguing, it's discussing.

Your show of indifference to something that will affect people's lives is not discrimination at heart, but it is ''who gives a hoot about you'' in an indirect way.

Also, regardless of whether or not it's happening to LizMarie, she makes an incredibly valid point. One that may not answer your question about how it affects KimberlyF, but is a good show how it affects other people.

[Guest Sarinah]

I am studying psychology and honestly dont think the change in lingo of the DSM will have much impact. Changing what its called wont change how people view it. That change will have to come through positive exposure. Personally I find the WPATH 7 changes to be more impactful as they are used by many to determine treatment courses.

-Evalyn

[Guest KimberlyF]

And why does discussion need argument, Kimberly? That seems a very odd thing to say. Discussion is not debate and is not arguing, it's discussing.

Your show of indifference to something that will affect people's lives is not discrimination at heart, but it is ''who gives a hoot about you'' in an indirect way.

Also, regardless of whether or not it's happening to LizMarie, she makes an incredibly valid point. One that may not answer your question about how it affects KimberlyF, but is a good show how it affects other people.

Discussion doesn't need an argument. I posed a question. What difference does this make in my life one way or another? Is asking that question an argument? Does asking that question mean I'm indifferent?

If I disagree with the stated outcome, does that still make me indifferent? When gays were taken out of the DSM in the 70's (a book which we're still in, mind you) did they suddenly get welcomed by society with open arms? Were they no longer discriminated?

I don't deal in hypotheticals that people have heard about. There are plenty of urban legend pages if thats your thing. The net mentioned one case that is in the courts where they're trying to say the person is insane based on the DSM. I don't know of it happening to anyone in my life. I asked for examples. Do people with Obsessive Compulsive DISORDER automatically lose custody of their kids?

Wouldn't someone who was really indifferent just not start a topic?

[Guest Maria_B]

Do whatever you want, Kimberly. But you should re-read your original post, consider the tone, the words and how it is written.

[VickySGV]

I am not seeing a discussion nearly as much as I think I am watching a Pinata being pulled up and down to avoid the swings of the blindfolded players bat.

For those who do not live in the southwestern US., a Pinata is a Mexican Heritage party game where players try to break a paper mache container of candy and small toys using a stick of wood. The pinata is hung on a rope above the ground, usually in a tree and can be hauled up and down by a non player person. The player is given a chance to eye up his swing, and then is blindfolded, the Pinata can be pulled up and down out of reach of the stick wielder so that their swings are ineffective. They can go on for quite a while without the candy coming out of them.

I now return you to the main topic.

[Guest Jenni_S]

I think I see the point being made here. Throughout everything I've been through, I really didn't care what my condition was called, as long as I was getting the treatment I needed. Disorder? Fine, I certainly felt disordered; my brain and my body didn't match, and it drove me nuts, especially as everything I tried to do to live with it didn't do any good. But it didn't matter what it was called, I just knew, finally, that there was one option left open and that very bad things would happen if I didn't do anything about it.

I have never seen firsthand any discrimination based on the titling of this condition, for myself and the people in the support groups and programs I was in. Nor did it affect my sense of self-worth. Why would it? It's part of a naming and coding system used by medical people for a common frame of reference and billing purposes. That's not going to affect how I see myself. I live myself for me and my son, not for the doctors.

Discrimination does happen, no question about it. When it does, I myself tend to think its because of what we are and that person's perception of it, not whether there is a "disorder" involved. If it were, I would think there would be a lot more clamor to have other titles changed too, but I haven't seen people with, for example, OCD or ADD saying the name of what they have has caused any legal ramifications.

Is changing what this condition is called, which hasn't happened yet, going to make much difference in the world? I don't think so. It's still going to come down to how each person reacts to what they are presented with before their eyes. I doubt whether the word "disorder" is included will make much difference, when that happens.

[JJ]

Words change society and change the world, Always have and always will. This change will change lives for decades but it will be more a ripple than waking up different the next day.

Words control everything and are the most powerful weapon and tool known to man. Laws are just words and based on other words. Children will get to stay with parents because of this change. Laws will be changed because of this change. In a fundamental way it changed the world for us in the US. It will just take time for it to be evident. The law and society move slowly-but they do move

I don't feel more sane but I feel safer. I don't see myself as more sane but my Dr may and my community eventually will.

Johnny

[Guest KimberlyF]

Having a mental disorder is not the as being mentally ill, it doesn't bother me as all.

I think it is a matter of semantics, mental issues are medical issues, what is the big deal.

What I find sad is all the loss that occurs of trans people who, while saying the accept themselves, can't accept the idea that most people don't consider this "normal" and spend enormuous efforts trying to get others to accept it as normal, that they are just normal and ultimatly don't get acceptance because of demands for acceptance rather than dealing with the self esteem issues that would provide so much greater rewards and result in less loss during the "transition" process.

I agree it's mostly just semantics.

Yeah, it's a natural condition but like with my kids trading cards, 1 in 100 would be a rare card. I'm rarer than that. It's not a bad thing.

I am studying psychology and honestly dont think the change in lingo of the DSM will have much impact. Changing what its called wont change how people view it. That change will have to come through positive exposure. Personally I find the WPATH 7 changes to be more impactful as they are used by many to determine treatment courses.

-Evalyn

I agree it prob isnt gonna make a difference, but why not do it since a bunch of people seem to want it? And a part of me feels like maybe when the world isnt suddenly better for some people maybe they'll deal with what's really upsetting them? What are the specific changes to the SOC that you like?

For those who do not live in the southwestern US., a Pinata is a Mexican Heritage party game where players try to break a paper mache container of candy and small toys using a stick of wood.

A piñata you say? Gosh are you the people who eat that crazy food the tackos or something?

I have never seen firsthand any discrimination based on the titling of this condition, for myself and the people in the support groups and programs I was in. Nor did it affect my sense of self-worth. Why would it? It's part of a naming and coding system used by medical people for a common frame of reference and billing purposes. That's not going to affect how I see myself. I live myself for me and my son, not for the doctors.

Discrimination does happen, no question about it. When it does, I myself tend to think its because of what we are and that person's perception of it, not whether there is a "disorder" involved. If it were, I would think there would be a lot more clamor to have other titles changed too, but I haven't seen people with, for example, OCD or ADD saying the name of what they have has caused any legal ramifications.

That's kinda my point. Sometimes we live in fear of things that aren't real.

I asked for specific examples of custody hearings involving trans people where they lost their children because they were crazy for being trans. Here is one where a trans man first one, then lost then eventually agreed to joint custody. Why wasn't sanity brought up? Shouldn't that have been a slam dunk? The wife was defended by a Christian group in a southern state.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/16/ctv.transsexual.custody/index.html

[Paula ult]

I have read numerous times about the excitement over the APA's recent statements on GID, etc.

Because of course now it's not a disorder if we have dysphoria.

Did anyone suddenly feel more sane one morning this month only to find out about the APA's new position and then the sudden feelings made sense?

I have to say i never felt insane, in fact my therapist told me one time i was the sanest person he knows, so the answer is no.

On Friday, I received one of my letters for surgery from a therapist. In it I was diagnosed with GID even after the big APA announcement. How could this happen? She works with the DSM and the current version on the street is IV. She must still think I'm insane, though she's never treated me that way?

So if there is a mixup at the printers will certain people wait longer for this validation?

The release of DSM-5 will take place during the APA’s 2013 Annual Meeting in San Francisco, CA. May 18-22, 2013, so until then she has to use what is in the current DSM, you can read about the timeline here:

http://www.dsm5.org/...s/Timeline.aspx

What did this announcement do for your personal self-esteem?

And anyway the APA wants to frame it, GD is still going to be listed in their next DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

What difference does this make in my life one way or the other?

It really makes no difference to me what they call it as long as the general public does sees it as a legitimate medical condition that needs treatment and not mental disorder, after over 3 years living as Paula everyone that knows me sees that i am the same person as before i transitioned and not some crazy freaked out individual, of course everyone that does not know me sees me as just another woman..

Paula

[Guest DanD]

I was invited here so I guess I'll jump in. I know i'll regret this in five minutes.

To ALL OF YOU:

A rose is a rose and by any other name and would smell just as sweet.

you want to be called normal. Why does it matter so much to you?

Who cares what the shrinks call it in their little billing book?

If they take it out of the book you wont see ANY insurance company pay for your sessions anymore - oh why -because youre NORMAL. be happy now. off with you! Really, NO. -- they will just bill it as something else..

any of these would fit:

Depression, or delusional, or some kind of anxiety thing, or plain old Dysphoria, maybe dythymia, thats fits too.

i could put a hundred words here that encompass the lovely transsexual rainbow kaliedoscope of emotions.

Transsexualism encompases emotions that Normal People do not feel; and others might but not, because of the same reasons we do.

Gender Identity Disorder, or Gender Dysphoria. same difference.

Frankly, some of you dont even know what the word Dysphoria means, or even feel it very much like some others do.

People these days are too touchy and overly sensitive about stupid things then disregard all the big things they should be paying attention to.

Dont worry about the damn dog urinating on the fire hydrant Martha, theres a speeding tractor truck about to hit you head-on!

I have no problem with anyone saying we're not normal.

The MAJOR part of being trans is that you do NOT feel youre normal after all!

Normal means the majority, Normal is decided by whatever society you are in, the Norm of one area is not the same as another. Cannibalism might be perfectly normal in some places, but not where I come from.

What always puzzled me was things like Transsexual Pride day.

You know, they just stole it from the GAY people, who feel theyre normal, i dont have anything in the slightest agaisnt gay people but if theyre proud to be Gay, and want to have a parade, thats great.

I'm glad youre happy and content with yourself, i wouldnt feel good about it if you felt bad about yourself just because youre gay, when youre a nice person, and its none of my business what anyone does with their partners in private, and that goes for straight people too.

and You surely do not see the Sex Police going around to make sure everyone is doing it the politically correct way according to some wacko's little book.. They dont go around to make sure my parents are having sex or not, do they? its nobodys business what anyone else is doing.

but Transsexual Pride? Part of being transsexual is not feel so great about being the way we are. We want to be something we are not. I wouldnt want my child to be a transsexual, and its not that i lack love for them but because i would love them so much. Who would really want this kind of crap inflicted on a loved one? I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

I dont know about you, but.I certainly did not wake up one day and decide this is a great way to be, and i want to do this for the rest of my life! I think it would be alot of fun to spend alot of money on shrinks and hormones and lawyers and surgeons and have half a dozen surgeries in an attempt to mutilate and contort my body into being something that resembles a male.

why would we want money for anything else in life? This is best way to blow over $100.000 that I can dream of!

Are we not having fun yet?

NORMAL people dont give gender and sex a first thought let alone a second thought. What a marvelous thing is must be, to be born the same gender as your sex is..and you didnt have to spend thousands of dollars for it. You dont have to have a ton of scars and a lifetime of crap from people for it. You don't worry if you'll ever find a partner when you become an adult, and you know you'll have a life and a job and kids..

Imagine it, Just imagine..what it must be life to have the gender and sex be both so united from birth that you cant even fathom it being any other way for someone else.

Yet we ask it from others all the time. and yet I can understand what it is like for them easier than they can pretend to, for me.

I read a psych text book once, and in it it said information about transsexuals and surgeries and things pertaining to transsexuals, and the last line of the chapter summed it up and said. "They lead very lonely lives."

[Guest DesiB]

What difference does the APA have in my life?

My surgeon would not have performed my surgery without an official diagnosis by other professionals to justify it and protect her against certain potential claims of malpractice. It does not require an actual charge of malpractice to change one's actual practices. So that is the primary tangible effect the APA has made in my life so far.

I made it through two divorces (with a child in the first and two more in the second) without any actual effects from the APA in regard to the custody of my children, aside from my fears that its language might have been used against me in court.

However, I did permanently lose possession of one gun and one knife (1997) due to my 2nd ex-wife's attempt at a restraining order against me wherein she included such accusations that I cross-dressed (which is still a mental disorder in the DSM), hung out in gay bars, and carried guns and knives. Fortunately, I saw it coming and took all of my weapons to my brother-in-law's house to hold for me except for one gun and one knife. But I never expected that those would not be returned to me even after the charges that I was a threat to her were ruled as unfounded! The APA was not directly cited in this case, but the topic certainly had an influence on how law enforcement officers (who are allowed wide personal discretion) felt about me at that time and put my life and property at additional risk, which was her intention when making the charges.

Today, the difference the APA makes in my life is only a potential one in regard to the fact that I have a license to carry a concealed weapon which could be taken away based on new laws and mental diagnoses. Every time we have another gun crime where the weapons were purchased legally, we have certain groups who want to restrict access to such weapons based on the mental health of the purchaser. Obviously I agree with the general idea that violent sociopaths should not be allowed to possess lethal weapons. But I am concerned about where such lines of mental health will be drawn. So that is how the APA has made or may make a difference in my life.

[Guest DanD]

The difference it makes is that it is no longer a mental illness and cannot be used against an individual in a court, for purposes such as custody battles and such.

i really doubt it would make any difference. courts dont pull the expert shrinks in to say whether a transperson is "ill" or "disordered" or not. they ddidnt change much after they took homosexuality out ofthe book, and i doubt its going to change the way courts deal with it. courts are run by people after all, they always throw their own baggage into the equation too.

But hey, if they like the idea of changing the terminology or whatever, and people like it then thats fine.

it would be real nice if it would have any kind of good affect at all on anything, but im not holding my breath or betting my life on it.

Maybe all it really shows is that shrinks are realizing more and more these days that we're not really so wacko as they used to think.

and they want to send us the message that they are here to help and aren't so judgemental? the word "disordered" itself does seem kind of negative, and judgemental (as if the best way to be is ultra-conformist?)

They changed the way they handle the WPATH to make them seem less of a "Gatekeeper", and more of a therapist/ally, which is what they really should be, a therapist and an ally, to help us with our situations.

but then again some people probably shouldnt be approved for these surgeries and things.. hard as it may be to see sometimes.

subtle difference in the wording... i'm not knocking it but it doesnt really affect me in any way as far as i can tell.

we get all this double talk nonsense, too. thats what bugs me. everyone agrees we got something wrong with us. then some say we're mentally ill or disordered, others just say we're nuts, or sick. but then they dont want to have anything paid for on insurances and stuff, because...its not sick, its just a perversion or soemthing disgusting. which i take as a big offensive malignment of my character. so anyway..so they should help us with our treatment, instead of throwing rocks in our path all the time.

This whole process should have been decided on and agreed on and not just on a little paper some doctors decided on with a vote (WPATH) but something thats got the medical world coordinated with the psych world and the legal world.

Double talk examples:

cant have the surgery till after you got yourself legally all changed to the new sex. the surgeon says.

but lawyer tells you you cant have your name/gender changed until youre done with all your surgery

but youre supposed to live 100 percent of the time, and work in the new sex role, but then they tell you you cant be legally changed to that prior to final surgery.

some states allow you to change some things and others allow other things, and even if they have a policy set in place. its not in alignment with the WPATH.. and sometimes the clerk at the window knows the policy and implements it, but sometimes they dont know what the policy is, so they dont do anything or do whatever they feel like doing. sometimes they have a policy but nobody follows it.

name changes are part of the transition process, so they should be covered under insurance, too. you'd think, but they're not, but why not? i know various people in the same county who at the same time wen to get their name change done, all the same status...one court petition was denied for name change, same attorney handled that one as michelle's and she got hers approved, so it wasnt the lawyer's fault.

michelle got her BC changed and her Drivers license, but another freind couldnt get the drivers license. 4 or 5 couldnt get their driver license changed they said, because thy didnt finish all their surgery, but michelle and i and some others got our done and change over prior to any surgey.

dumb..

[Guest KimberlyF]

I have mentioned before that I don't connect with the TG label. I consider myself TS. The interesting thing about this argument is aside from the name change which I see as inconsequential, the other part of what they've done fits better w/my belief system.

GD is people looking for medical intervention, and when thats done, they no longer have GD.

To be Gender Dysphoric, you need 2 of the following 3:

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

***

I have posted many times about the other side to this coin-transvestic disorder. Why would I bring this up, if I got what I want and I don't care about others in the community? The logic breaks down. I would keep quiet about the whole thing. The problem is the way this works is the only people they're calling sane are the people transitioning. And that because of lobbying. If you crossdress, you still may be crazy.

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=189

Thank you APA!

Desi,

A lot of these things as you point out a bit are beyond our control. A judge at a custody hearing can bring their own prejudices into the courtroom and rule against a trans person just because with no reference to that. It's like there are no laws that make it historically harder to take custody from a mother than from a father. It's just an ingrained social bias.

The guy at the liquor store who was going to discriminate against you last year will prob do it next year.

[Guest DanD]

". I don't know of anyone personally who have had either. But I've always been more concerned with the AMA laying out a treatment plan than the APA. "

I have read a thing in the AMA about us, and they said much like the WPATH thing, that this is medically necessary and that insurances should cover it , and similar things which sound nice.. but then i noticed doctors (the surgeons) still dont seem to pay attention to that at all either, but i am sure theyre familiar with the AMA stuff, even more than the WPATH stuff..

they just do what they want is what i have noticed, and if they want an excuse, then they say something about the WPATH or the AMA, even if its wrong. Like, that dr..the one in Pa, the lady surgeon, she had certain things she wants before she would do a surgery etc, but then she says she follows the WPATH but she doesnt. i hate using one specific doc as an example but ive noticed it among alot of them while i was looking for a surgeon who could help me..

i just find it rather disheartening when they do that.

[Carolyn Marie]

Double talk examples:

cant have the surgery till after you got yourself legally all changed to the new sex. the surgeon says.

This is not a requirement of the SoC, and I've never heard of this happening to anyone.

but youre supposed to live 100 percent of the time, and work in the new sex role, but then they tell you you cant be legally changed to that prior to final surgery.

The first part of your statement is true, but I know of many who live full time in their preferred gender without getting all the documentation changed.

name changes are part of the transition process, so they should be covered under insurance, too. you'd think, but they're not, but why not?

I know of no medical insurance for any condition that covers legal fees. Why would you expect a medical insurer to do so for treatment for GD?

Most of your reply has nothing to do with the original question(s). Please try to keep on-topic. You can always start your own on the various other issues you raised. Thank you.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

I was invited here so I guess I'll jump in. I know i'll regret this in five minutes.

First I want to say this comment bothers me. I posted a while ago about one of the things I like about the net is a free exchange of ideas. I hope nobody makes you feel uncomfortable for sharing your opinions. There is a difference between disagreeing with someone and trying to intimidate them into backing down. You should never regret speaking your mind.

I agree on the pride thing. To me it's like being proud of being right handed or from Illinois. I didn't chose this, and it has caused me decades of pain. I don't hate myself for being TS, but I'm not marching in a parade over it. It is what it is.