Will surgery ever get better for us trans men?

[Guest Jay Smooth]

I mean right know the surgery sucks bad which sucks with the methoidioplasty it functions but its to small and i'm not trying to be funny but most women want a big penis not a small one and plus ive heard you can't pee out of it and you can't penetrate. and with the phalloplasty you can't feel anything and it looks unrealistic .

[Guest Master Zero]

Everything gets better eventually. You just have to be patient.

http://io9.com/5944628/your-lab+grown-penis-is-almost-ready?tag=regenerative-medicine

[Guest DanD]

I mean right know the surgery sucks bad which sucks with the methoidioplasty it functions but its to small and i'm not trying to be funny but most women want a big penis not a small one and plus ive heard you can't pee out of it and you can't penetrate. and with the phalloplasty you can't feel anything and it looks unrealistic .

Now im gonna get beat up again by people that dont know any better. But what the heck I'll go ahead and reply to this.

It amazed me how so many MTFs dont say how "horrible" their surgeries are, because they dont get a "real Vagina" or some such thing. To the point: none of these surgeries are ideally what we want in the first place, non of us want to go thru surgeries in particular, for anything, unless youre someone with a weird surgery-fetish-obsession thingy, whatever the word is, I dont know.

For that matter, the hormones and everything else is rather a pain and a bother too; Normal people dont have to wee all the doctors and shrinks and lawyers and whatever like we do. ts all a big pain. Everything about it is.

We can whine forever and feel bad about everything forever, and do nothing, or you can do what you can and make it as best we can with what we got. Well, isnt that the truth for ANYONE anyway?

If i were born a male, I could grouch how i've lost my hair, and how short i am, and how much weight ive gained, and other health problems i have. i used to never have any of those things to deal with, but things happen. and we have to try to improve what we can, and deal with things the best we can.

as for the surgeries.. even after all these years and the internet so prolific with information out there, it never ceases to amaze me to find trans people who dont seem to have a real knowledge of whats available out there, and what isnt.

I read websites and see youtubes of people..repeating the same old things they said 30 years ago, or 10 or 20...

I Guess whether someting sucks or not is entirely opinion, so i cant say something sucks or doesnt suck for someone. but it bothers me when i hear the same thing..its sucks because...and then they repeat the same old lines, which are not accurate medically, or whatever, aside from someone saying this or that sucks all throughout it.

MTF women dont like it they cant just be "normal" and have normal vaginas in every way, uteruses etc, everything functioning "normally" but on the other hand, ..being somewhat close to what they want, and not a million miles away from it, like they were before, is rather satisfying for many.. yeh, they could all tell you the downsides, why it sucks and sucks all day long too, but I dont know, they seem to say they feel a lot better than before, and thats a great thing. Some will never be happy no matter what they do, or have done. There are various methods they can use for MTF surgery as well, but they dont usually seem aware of it..

also they dont always use the penis for the vagina, sometimes they use colon material, some argue which is better or worse. there are both pros and cons to each method.

Some FTM guys are really fine without any bottom surgery, some ftm guys would never want it done..even if it were "perfect" and nobody ever said it "sucked". Some FTM guys, it really bothers them, and they do want some kind of bottom surgery.. some are fine and happy with metaidiopasties, and some arent. some are fine with phalloplasties and some arent. some go back to have more work done, in either case, to make it better, somehow. Some people are fine with the results eventually, some people will never be happy with anything.

as for your statements about these things... Regarding the Metaidioplasties: you say theyre too small - most women want a big penis not a small one. Plus you've heard you can't pee out of it and you can't penetrate.

A lot of straight women, I think, seem to prefer a male with a normal sized penis, not a small one. True. But some males are born with Micropenises, which are sometimes, quite small. of course the weird thing about that is, when theyre construct they might become much larger, and compare to a normal penis size. But sometimes not. Sometimes these guys end up having phalloplasty surgeries of some type, or maybe just some liposuction around it, to make it seem more noticable... whatever, thats guys who were born guys. Despite this they seem to find girlfriends and wives, some have kids.. but thats guys anyway.

--Size might "matter" to women, but some women don't think it takes such a high priority in a relationship. Not if the guy is special in other ways, and not if they love the guy. I notiiced that they even make dildoes especially for guys with smaller sized penises, you simply slip the larger one over the smaller one basicly. You get the idea. Some FTM guys use something similiar.

A metaidioplasty can be done with or without a urethra lengthening procedure done. In other words, yes they can lengthen the urethra out to the top of the glans, so that you can pee standing up. But even some phalloplasties are not done with the urethra lengthening done. Some males who were born male also do not have perfectly formed penises, or urethras, and they might have to pee sitting down as well -sometimes it doesnt go thru the penis, or exits permaturely so they cant basicly pee standing in a normal way as youd expect.

The question whether you can penetrate or not with a metaidioplasty...

the surgeons will tell you that you cannot, but ive heard so many FTM people argue with me about it, (of course they never had surgery yet, theyre just repeating something someone told them. and they didnt have surgery done either.).

--That drives me bonkers! People spreading BS around because someone else spread BS around basied on someone els'e BS, and nobody even bothers to find out the facts.

An FTM guy on YouTube FTM discussed alot of things, he's never had metaidioplasty himself..but he claims his clitoris got so large that he can penetrate even now without the surgery done yet. But then later on he claimed he had been born with a large one, due to a intersexed condition -which he never mentioned before, after years and years of sharing his info.. makes you wonder how honest he is being. I've heard about all these FTM guys who have huge clits after hormones...

i do not believe it, i believe the stats the doctors have shared. if you take hormones and end up with a huge normal male sized penis, then why dont they show it anywhere? as i said before, wouldnt be the first time in history that a guy has lied about the size of his penis, would it? but i dont think thats very beneficial to the rest of us. --and as i have said before, i apologize to any FTM who magicy grew a 5 or 6 inch penis (or more) somehow, but the rest of us can't realisticly expect to get those kind of results. The normal maximum size that can be expected they say is maybe 1.5 inches. (3 to 6 cm). and that matches what i and others i have known have experienced.

Metas function only in the sense that they "functioned" as a clitoris, they have alot of nerve endings in them capable or erotic stimulation. These small phalluses do not have the girth nor width of a penis, they dont have any of the spongey materiial, fluid or ligamenture of a penis, so, they sort of can feel like thay have erections, they do not have them in the fashion as one might expect visually from a male penis.

That is not to say you cant have a good time with them, and that sometimes girlfreinds seem to be quite fine with the thing. I should think if theyre bisexual or gay, they would maybe find this more suitable than a regular male penis anyhow maybe? I never really asked one, but i have read things and heards things, and videos by the girlfriends at times... i just was unable to actually ask anything due to the nature or the communication from them.

As far as penetration goes, like i said, doctors say no. a freind who is a girl, and i discussed this once..we figured on a minumum size youd have to have for actual penetration.. and that came to be about 3 inches. but that wasnt scientific, just us talking and comparing stats and things, making a guess.

As for the phalloplasties... you said: "and with the phalloplasty you can't feel anything and it looks unrealistic" .

Thats also not true. it might have been the case in some cases at some time but certainly not a usual occurence.

How it looks depends on the method of the surgery and how artistic the surgeon is, and how it happened to have healed. any surgery can end up looking hidious, if it doesnt heal up so well. and nothing looks good right after surgery. Trans surgeons rarely get a chance to get photos of their patients long after surgery, which is a shame. having said that, i think if you think of it now and then, send a photo of you surgery to your surgeon later on, so they can have that. just you chest if its a chest surgery, that kind of thing especially.

There were more phalloplasty surgeons around in the usa in the 90s than there has been lately. some retired, and i guess its not a common thing to get into anyway... Some of these surgeons, their work sucked, IMO, their methods sucked, and their results sucked.

I think they didnt want you to end up looking like a normal guy.. how dare you want to look like a real male? I sensed that kind of snobbery at times, still do from some surgeons ive met around here. Went to some locals to see if theyd fix some scarring problem i have on my chest, rather simple procedure, youdf figre any local could handle it. no they act werd and rude, and refer to me to the surgeon who did it in the first place. well she is 400 miles away from here, it would be rather easier to just get it done at home. but they can be real prikz at times. Remember Doctors are human beings too, and they can be jerks too.

Some of the phalloplasties looked ok, almost none of them look okay right after surgery, which is when the doctors usually take their photos, before you go home. Actually phallos are done in stages so they arent even done after the first surgery, a year later you can come back and get the glans and touchup work done so it looks better.

Phallos that are done with simple flaps of skin transplanted..they may or may not have a good viable blood flow source. This affects the health of the flap, sometimes they dont hold up well, like if they get infected. this is the same for the nipples on many of the chest surgeries, the nipple is often transplanted (grafted) to a new place, and depending on how well you heal, affects how it turns out. some people dont follow doctors instructions and the flap fails. They'll be stupid and go get a shower right after they go home,and watch their nipples flow down the drain in the shower! They wont keep it as clean as they should, or redress it right, or they cheated and didnt quit smoking for the surgery, or they start it right back up when they go home. nicotene and skin grafts do NOT mix. They dont tell you not to smoke just for your health. when they tell you it will cause failure of the flap, the mean it.

Some phallos end up with poor blood flow, but they do manage to work out ok..they might need more work done on them. Some phallos are meant to have more work done on them, but the patient doesnt bother to go back and get that done, and then they complain it doesnt look quite right, or whatever. well they have to wait for everything toheal on the inside beofre they can cosmeticly touchup the outside. Sometimes they have to do something to get better blood flow in there.

theres so many methods.. some are almost never going to let you have any erotic sensation in the nerves on the penis, ever.

some methods do sometimes, and other methods do all the time.

When they do microsurgery to connect the nerve endings from the old skin flap's tissue and skin to the clitoral nerves, you end up with eritic sensation in the penis, same as you would in a clitoris.

Some surgeons do not even do the microsurgery or the nerve grafts, but the clitoral nerves are left in tact as is the clitoris..it might be buried inside the base of the penis..which means, youd have erotic sensations in the penis when you have sex. It can also be put just below the base of the penis, it still allows for erotic sensations to-from the penis during intercourse too. So they tell me. The trick is you have to have a really good graft and a good blood flow and nerves intact from the donor flap area.

if you had some damage sometime to that area, then it might not be such a good place to get the skin from. they can check it ahead of time by doing doppler of the donor area. Dr. Leis does his surgery this way, he usually uses skin from the waisteline and brings it down to where it needs to go to. He claims you'd end up with erotic sensation, but also tactile sensation with the new phallus.

Yet some other surgeons who do an abdominal flap method claim they dont get any sensation in the new phallus. what they mean is, they dont do anything to accommodate it or provide for it to happen, they merely use skin, but not the tissue with the nerves endings and the blood flow parts..whatever they use from the one to the other. He likes this method because you end up with just a small scar across that resembles a tummy tuck scar. Dr. Leis does not put in a urinary tract, or penile implants.

Other surgeons do methods like the forearm freeflap method, which later was altered by some other surgeons in europe, to use the side instead of your forearm, but those both use microsurgery to connect the nerve endings and stuff.

these latter methods are considered the best state of the art types of surgery, which offer the best results. they allow for urination thru the penis while standing, with a normal urinary flow stream, intercourse with the air of an implant (there are various type of these), and allow for tacticle and erotic sensability in the phallus.

(That means it has feeling in it.) These also tend to look very good, once everything is done and healed up.

There have been FTMs around the world who have had sex with experienced women who didnt know they were FTM, and never found out, so I would say thats not so bad considering.

I do not believe that anyone's surgery turns out exactly like someone else's though..too many things involved in it. Ive seen some photos that looked better or worse than others. but then again, men dont all look the in that way same either.

I still think they could improve things a lot. one of those things would be the implant might be triggered differently. they have robotic arms and legs that respond to mental stimuli, and certain muscle or nerve reactions.. wouldnt be that hard to have an implant that is triggered in a similar manner.

Dr Leis said, they are working on a new better way to work out the urinary tract issues, and this would be something he would be insterested in doing. Presently they use skin from the labia or the vagina wall, or the inside of someone's mouth, to make the urethra tube for inside the penis. I dont know if the new method uses some artifcial matierial, or maybe it uses actual urethras somehow..I dont know. Mabe it uses stem cells to grow new ones.

These surgeries are becomming more common and cost less than they did before though, so thats one good thing.

Sometimes I think all of this stuff just sucks, the who kaboodle, and other times I dont think about it so much I guess.

I havent had a gf in a while, or met anyone i'd want to be with for a while either, so that mid of makes it easier in some ways.

sucks to be interested in someone and go thru all these feelings and stuff too.

too long agin but im tired now, dont feel like editting. Laterz.

[Guest DanD]

to answer the topic question.. yes i think they will be gettng more things done with our surgeries, better ways of doing things, and probbaly not a long long time from now. they are actually working on alot of things these days in the medical world.

they grew new penises on bunny rabbits after the removed them penises, they grew new ones in a petri dish with stem cells, then put them onto the bunnies, who were abe to function like regular bunnies afterwards, and had babie bunnies and everything.

Micros surgery was a very big step in our surgery and that was in 1985 that they started that in Holland for SRS. improved things quite a lot. i think we're due to get some more changes.

[Guest Jay Smooth]

WEll not to mention the fact that you can't biologically impregant a women

[Guest aleon515]

You are an American which means for the most part, you pay your way. You are also, from what I understand, pretty young. By the time you can afford it it will improve.

I have read some good reports on it, so it isn't all negative. There are people experimenting with new techniques. The problem is basically dealing with less tissue to make more. A lot harder than for our sisters. OTOH, T works better than E. So guys have an easier time passing.

--Jay J

[Guest DanD]

WEll not to mention the fact that you can't biologically impregant a women

well yeh, but alot of men cant do that too.

personally i wonder about testicular transplantation somehow, in that regard... women are born with their eggs in their ovaries. later they release a them monthly, (more or less)

if youd implant an ovary into someone, and it released eggs, the eggsd would be that of the donor ovary person.

But with men, somehow they make their own sperm in a short time period... the testes reads th DNA in the blood I assume, and manufactures sperm and puts that code into it. Then the the sperm is carried with the ejaculate to search for an egg somewhere...

so by theory of a transplant, this means the donor isnt the one supplying the sperm, merely the device which makes the sperm.. On that end, you;d see that the sperm thats made would be that of the person who actually possesses the testicles at the time, not the pervious owner(donor). Of course we are speaking all theoreticly here, but it would seem as though, in such a fashion then a man who lost his testicles due to injury or whatever, might be able to get a donor testes and have a baby later.

the other thing thats interesting, is people are born with pairs of these things, usually..so someone only needs one testes or one ovary to make a baby. this opens the doors for donors easier, too, since they wouldnt be giving up the ability to have their own children one day.. even after donating one to someome.

I think there was a a case of a female identical twin who couldnt have babies, so she got her sister's ovary, so she could have a baby.?? I'm pretty sure they did it that way. since they're identical twins the eggs have the same DNA of course, and the organs would also have hardly any chance of rejection, barring some injfection setting in...

Even aside from all that, they can and have taken the DNA out of something ..and removed DNA from an egg, and put the new DNA into the egg. well thats their cloning thing nowadays. Havent done it with humans yet as far as we know...

I think our medical and other scientific knowledge is growing faster than our wisdom and sense of ethics though, you could image all sort of things and problems that could come up as a result. Some people criticize God's workas it is, scary to think some of the nasty people out there who could abuse or use these thinsg as if they're gods.

Heck used to be you didnt have to be rich to adopt a baby, but now it seems like you do.

the issue of children is one i'm sure many of us had contemplated over the years.. Originally I didnt like the idea of donor sperm because i thought it would make me feel bad, to know it wasnt "mine", etc.

But later I changed that.. I figured when i got married one day, and wanted to have kids, that we'd probably use donor sperm; that way, the kids would still be related to my wife biologically, theyre all look similar, and no one could take them away..due to some yong girl wanting her baby back? that would be a horrible thing to go through. and also, just because i couldt have kids, then i wouldnt have to feel i was keeping her from having children.

again, thinking, i know people who wanted to adopt and couldnt afford it. kind of strange, ayone can mess around and get knocked up, and have a baby, and they didnt have to have money or anything to do that..

--but nice people who arent rich cant adopt.? --and then theres the attitudes they might have about trassexuals.. they dont like to adopt to people if they think you're nuts or weird.

Not much in life is actually fair, I think. so count your blessings when you have them.

as for surgery costs, even the most full blown phallos cost the can cost up to 100k here, only cost about 15k (USD) in Europe, and that guy in belgium has oodles of experience; hes considered the best by the doctors over here. that McGinn surgeon in Pa referred me to him...i forget his darn name right now. losing my mind here good grief.

[Guest Cal]

With all due respect, I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction. Surgery isn't the answer, gene therapy is the answer!

Already they can get embryonic mouse ovaries to change to testes by inhibiting certain genes. I know it seems a long way off, but remember scientific and technical knowledge and ability grow at an exponential rate. Scientists have also gotten human stem cells (destined to be skin cells I believe) to turn into sperm cells. This is a long way from being ready, but research in this field is driven by the desire to cure infertility, which affects 15% of Americans.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-01/uoc--hip012609.php

I will find the study on the mouse testes when I get home and post it for you

WEll not to mention the fact that you can't biologically impregant a women

well yeh, but alot of men cant do that too.

personally i wonder about testicular transplantation somehow, in that regard... women are born with their eggs in their ovaries. later they release a them monthly, (more or less)

if youd implant an ovary into someone, and it released eggs, the eggsd would be that of the donor ovary person.

But with men, somehow they make their own sperm in a short time period... the testes reads th DNA in the blood I assume, and manufactures sperm and puts that code into it. Then the the sperm is carried with the ejaculate to search for an egg somewhere...

so by theory of a transplant, this means the donor isnt the one supplying the sperm, merely the device which makes the sperm.. On that end, you;d see that the sperm thats made would be that of the person who actually possesses the testicles at the time, not the pervious owner(donor). Of course we are speaking all theoreticly here, but it would seem as though, in such a fashion then a man who lost his testicles due to injury or whatever, might be able to get a donor testes and have a baby later.

the other thing thats interesting, is people are born with pairs of these things, usually..so someone only needs one testes or one ovary to make a baby. this opens the doors for donors easier, too, since they wouldnt be giving up the ability to have their own children one day.. even after donating one to someome.

I think there was a a case of a female identical twin who couldnt have babies, so she got her sister's ovary, so she could have a baby.?? I'm pretty sure they did it that way. since they're identical twins the eggs have the same DNA of course, and the organs would also have hardly any chance of rejection, barring some injfection setting in...

Even aside from all that, they can and have taken the DNA out of something ..and removed DNA from an egg, and put the new DNA into the egg. well thats their cloning thing nowadays. Havent done it with humans yet as far as we know...

Well, this would be a good idea, if it was an accurate reflection of human physiology.

Men are born with immature sperm cells just like women are born with immature egg cells. For women, a surge of hormones each month signals one of the egg cells to mature and be ovulated. For men, puberty hormones tell their sperm stem cells to divide and mature. Each sperm stem cell ultimately makes 3 new cells; one is left behind to serve as a template for more division.

All the information a man needs to produce sperm - both the stem cells as an embryo and the mature cells as an adolescent - is contained on a region of the Y chromosome called the SRY region. Women with two X chromosomes do not have these genes, and therefore cannot make sperm! They also cannot grow penises or any of the other secondary male sex organs.

I think our medical and other scientific knowledge is growing faster than our wisdom and sense of ethics though, you could image all sort of things and problems that could come up as a result. Some people criticize God's workas it is, scary to think some of the nasty people out there who could abuse or use these thinsg as if they're gods.

No comment about God, but I definitely agree with you that our scientific capability is growing faster than our ethics. Look at the atom bomb. Hell, read the The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, by Rebeca Skloot. I highly recommend that book. It's about biomedical ethics and perfectly illustrates the point you just made.

[Guest Jay Smooth]

Well still alot of women want kids biologically. Ansd im sorry but to me surgery is not good I hear how woman talk all day.

[JJ]

Bottom line for me is that I am not going to let myself be defined by what biological equipment I have or don;t or it's relative size. Nor do I want as a partner anyone who judges people on those shallow terms. What teen girls say to each other and what they feel and do is considerably different. And those girls who do pick partners by those standards tend to develop[ other basis for their choices as they mature.

Be the best man you can be and it will be enough. Because it's really what's inside that counts.

I wish it was possible to make things right for us. I think some day for you it will be. But don't put off your life waiting or putting yourself down for the lack. Or miss out on all the love you can have for the little you can't

Johnny

[Flint]

With all due respect, I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction. Surgery isn't the answer, gene therapy is the answer!

are you talking about the research done showing that shutting off FOXL2 gene in female mice turned females ovaries into testes within 3 weeks?

[Guest LizMarie]

Department of Defense is researching how to build new genitals for soldiers who were injured in war. That technology will eventually be made available for FtM transgenders too.

I know it's not great right now but science is moving forward on this specific topic. What helps an injured soldier can help you eventually too.

[Guest aleon515]

Well still alot of women want kids biologically. Ansd im sorry but to me surgery is not good I hear how woman talk all day.

Well Jay, I don't know how you can ever be happy. It is not enough to really want a realistic organ that can do many things a cisperson's can. That would never be enough. But then I don't think actually ANYTHING would be enough.

I agree with Johnny here. You don't need any of this to be happy. By all rights you are a young guy going thru transition when I had to really wait almost my whole life. Be the man you were meant to be but don't worry so much about what's between your legs. It's more about your head anyway.

I believe that you maybe need to think a bit more on what exactly you need to be happy.

--Jay J

[Guest DanD]

"With all due respect, I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction. Surgery isn't the answer, gene therapy is the answer!

Already they can get embryonic mouse ovaries to change to testes by inhibiting certain genes. I know it seems a long way off, but remember scientific and technical knowledge and ability grow at an exponential rate. Scientists have also gotten human stem cells (destined to be skin cells I believe) to turn into sperm cells. This is a long way from being ready, but research in this field is driven by the desire to cure infertility, which affects 15% of Americans."

Yes, I've also talked about stem cell research with FTMs at times. Its all interesting theories to discuss and ask about, but difficult to say when or if they'd ver get around to doing it, or if its possible at all fur us. Still a darn interesting concept.

"Men are born with immature sperm cells just like women are born with immature egg cells. For women, a surge of hormones each month signals one of the egg cells to mature and be ovulated. For men, puberty hormones tell their sperm stem cells to divide and mature. Each sperm stem cell ultimately makes 3 new cells; one is left behind to serve as a template for more division."

Ah! Okay so then one of the questions did have a clearer answer. So the testes, if transplanted to another person, would retain the genetic code from the original donor? uh not as nice as it sounded the other way. hmm

probably no issue with identical twins though, same as the ovary transplant case.it was the twin sister.

"All the information a man needs to produce sperm - both the stem cells as an embryo and the mature cells as an adolescent - is contained on a region of the Y chromosome called the SRY region. Women with two X chromosomes do not have these genes, and therefore cannot make sperm! They also cannot grow penises or any of the other secondary male sex organs."

Well, not unless the woman has some hormonal things going on, or some other thing going on in the situtation to confuse things up.. but i get your point there. You seem up to par on these genetic issues, nice to have the feedback to bounce around with here! actually i do have a question.. maybe you or someone would know the correct answer:

Question: about Mitocondrial DNA (dont recal the spelling, so bear with me on that please.) its from part of the DNA that we get from our mothers they say.. So when they do a Mitocondrial DNA test on someone, would it show someone has any Y chromosomes present?

My thinking is, if its the code we get from out mothers, so it can only contain Xes, but not Ys, right? But someone said that is wrong. I was unable to find a clear answer on that. (if you dont know for sure, then dont answer as if you know for sure.)

thanks.

[Guest DanD]

Well still alot of women want kids biologically. And im sorry but to me surgery is not good I hear how woman talk all day.

Ok yeh alot of women want kids, we wet over that. just becfause you cant have kids doesnt mean your spouse need not have kids, as i explained. of course its not ideal. but its not ideal for alot of natually born men out there too, or women. the only difference is some of them KNOW they cant have kids, and most of the HAVE NO IDEA that they cannot have children util a long time after trying and failing to get pregnant.

to you surgery is not good...you say. well its not ideal no matter how you slice it.

you can not just wave a magic wand and -boom- everything is how we'd like things to be, about anything.

So, that means what?

You figure no one will want to be with you, or is it you dont want any one to ever want to be with you?

Something to think about. seriously.

I've become very insecure about allthis myself too, so im not talking down at all here, i beat myself up a hundred times a day and i dont even know where that came from. when i was younger i dated girls and stuff, and things would pop in my head and stuff, and make me wonder about things, but i dont remember ever feeling that no one would ever want to be with me, or that i was unlovable somehow. i also didnt think of women as veiung so shallow or petty, i had a high regard for women, and their ability to feel for people... they sometimes stay with men who have many shortcomings, but if they have faith in their man, they stay with them and love them. What we might see as a joke might be prince charming to them in their eyes. Surely there is someone for everyone...

but then there's times where i just beat myself with all this self doubt and insecurity about everything...

you cant go thru life living that way or you WILL be alone your whole life. negativity has a way of breeding more negativity somehow..

when you say: "I hear how woman talk all day." you remind me of me, telling my therapist years ago..i know how girls talk, i've lived among you women, incognito, most my life."

I know what my sisters say, when theyre together, they say things like this:

"Oh he's nice but he doesnt make enough money.."

or other such things. I'm on Social Securty and it bugs me i cant work anymore, i dont get much money at all.. dont get me wrong, i am very grateful to have it or i'd have nothing at all. But i did feel good when i was working, and could bring home a nicer check. Had a nicer car, the whole thing.

then again, I gained weight, so i beat myself up about how fat i am now too. and i was never ever fat before, it just sort of happened that i gained 100 lbs in 7 months after a bad injury i couldnt DO anything but lay in bed all day; i couldnt sit up, stand or walk, and i just have never been the same since. i never even thought about being fat. couldnt understand how anyone could let themself get fat, because i was healthy and strong and athletic and fit, even when i was a girl.

i kick myself because i am old now too.. easier to find a date when you're younger, people arent so picky and jaded and worn out yet.. and id like to have kids too when i get married, but i never got married yet and i am 48 yrears old now.. all the women my age are DONE having kids, so i have to find a girl my neices' age to date if i want kids? That seems odd to be dating a 20 something when youre 50..

and look at the dating sites... they want guys who are tall-- at least 6 feet.. they never want anything under 5'10".

they should be dark-haired, and handsome, and especially have tons of money.. and a career that they could be proud of..like some rocket scientist who discovered new planets and owns Jupiter.

they want their men to have their "act together" --and love to travel all the time with their girlfreinds..

they dont just want dinner and a movie anymore, --they want trips to the Bahamas and Europe, and clusters of emeralds and diamonds...as gifts so they dont have to give them back of course.

They dont want kids, theyve had theirs and theyre out of the house, they dont want them back! Their exes are either dead or remarried to some bimbo, so they never see them anymore. Unless theyre crazy and still live together, and hope you understand it doesnt mean anything.

guyd these days have as much pressure on them to look good as women do.. that why they sell those DVD work outs all the time..--you too can have this body in 90 days! -- Oh sure! Tell me another one. Wish i could look like that. I'd settle for just being able to walk and do things like i could 10 yerars ago.

I dont show off my chest to the public because it doesnt look right, and it doesnt look good on top of that. so beaches are STILL out; swimming, nevermind. Chest surgery isnt all we wish it to be, but on the other hand... I could grouch about everything forever if i wanted to, as i feel like i have nothing and am nowhere much of the time.

But on the other hand! Yes I DO remember what its like to have those damn breasts, and i couldnt do anything with them to try to hide them in a real way like some guys can. some can put on a binder and you dont even see breasts at all, they liike totally flat.

but its a matter of mass displacement, if your got BIG boobs, and you squish them, something's gotta give and make room for everything. But using a winch and a chain to try to strap on something to confine my breasts every day would have been downright hazardous.

Sometimes i have nightmares, and sometimes theyre with me, discovering they grew back, or they didnt do it right and theyre still obviously there. but i dont have tem anymore, i dont even have bumps or man-boobs, or anything, pretty flat on the chest overall, so i have to be grateful for that.

And the movies, they have everyone having sex all the time.. sex sex sex, they meet say hi, then have sex. oh what was your name again? Even if i were a regular guy i'd have an awkward feeling about that.. how can you date when you cant have sex, and everyone seems to expect sex in the package these days. would have been easier in another time period.

they had this dating show on tv, and the girls had to choose among several guys who they'd like to date... they always hated the guys who were still living at home, or were still virgins, or used viagra, and other things..

My psychologist says, it just means that I'm complicated, but it doesnt mean a woman wouldnt want to date me or be with me.

I know most guys feel theyre "entitled" to a female mate..no questions about it, so they make moves on girls all the time, and date all the time. I need a tiny bit of that somehow.

all the girls ive gone out with before, they started out as freinds, and sort of let me know they liked me later on..so i'd date them.

but that doesnt work out like that in the male and female straight dating world.

if she thinks of you as her freind, she'll never see you as her boyfreind. I dont know why. weird dynamics.

my prediction is, even if you had a perfect magic wand type surgery for everything, youd still beat yourself up, and claim its the women doing it when its you doing it. I'd like it so that they didnt notice anything different about me, and i didnt have this weird baggage with me all the time. but on the other hand, regular guys can go thru this same stuff..

losing my hair..nobody wants an old short bald guy with no money...but you know, i do have alot of nice things about me that are NOT so common these days, and people appreciate those things a lot.

Its hard not to beat yourself up, i'm sure people here all do it sometime or other.

yeh, some women want a guy thats built like a playgirl model, but look at the women too. theyre not all that either much of the time.

well..i doubt this post helped anyone in anyway, but it felt good for me to vent a little i guess. thanks for your time.

[Ravin]

Dan, mitochondrial DNA is a ring of DNA found in the mitochondria, a part of a body's cells outside the nucleus. It is not chromosomal DNA. It is entirely separate from the DNA in the nucleus which contains the chromosomes, including the X and Y chromosomes. You inherit it from your mother because eggs get a complete copy and sperm has none.

Incidentally, the American Transman blog is an awesome repository for info about how our bodies work from a scientific perspective. I highly recommend reading the archive.

[Guest aleon515]

Of course you have to remember that the only girls you have probably ever talked to (aside from sisters perhaps) are young girls. You are going to grow up someday. All women do not care if a guy is 5 ft. or what they have between their legs. There are young guys in our ftm group. Some of them have genderqueer girlfriends, for instance, who appreciate their guy for who he is. In some cases the girls are taller than the guys.

--Jay J

[Guest Jay Smooth]

But most of them do even grown woman im not tryin to rush time i just wanna be like everyother niological guy

[Guest aleon515]

But most of them do even grown woman im not tryin to rush time i just wanna be like everyother niological guy

So you've had conversations about intimate matters with 10 or so adult women?!

Not sure what facial expression to have here!

--Jay J

[Guest Jay Smooth]

Im around a bunch of women and they would never date a transman nust saying cuz they all say their strickly dickly and want a big one that can function.And surgery is far from it you can even ejaculate you cant even get in erection on your own with the phallo and again the meta is to small for me you guys dont understand that we live in a ignorant world their aint no love . I cant even tell anyone that im really a man without getting laughed at.

[Guest leo]

Jay you need to relax! A friend of mine has had phallo and he is actually able to ejaculate a bit (also heard this from other guys) also he has full sensation! The world isn't as ignorant as you think. Iv only dated straight cis gendered women and none of them have a problem. Women actually don't care about size, none like it to big and most actually hate sperm. Once your older and get out there you will realise what I mean

[Guest DanD]

Dan, mitochondrial DNA is a ring of DNA found in the mitochondria, a part of a body's cells outside the nucleus. It is not chromosomal DNA. It is entirely separate from the DNA in the nucleus which contains the chromosomes, including the X and Y chromosomes. You inherit it from your mother because eggs get a complete copy and sperm has none. Incidentally, the American Transman blog is an awesome repository for info about how our bodies work from a scientific perspective. I highly recommend reading the archive.

thats interesting,because, years ago i had asked if they could do a chromosome test on me, as i was curious. my doctor said sure if you want..so i got the script, went to the hopsital to get the blood drawn. the girl there didnt know wher to send it to exactly.. they sent it to some lab here in pittsburgh.

The thing they sent me back didnt show "results", but merely a report written out.. and first thing they said was a disclaimer...its not a normal test they usually do, its some new thing that they just came up with, and so its not been approved yet, some experimental thing. which was the first tip off that it wasnt what i wanted. but it mentioned its the mitocondrial dna test.

it mentioned some pairs of this and that, but I was rather annoyed by it because it didnt answer anything for me, an i think it was because it was the wrong test. we were wondering if i had Y in there, or something unusual.. was just curious about it since i was born with "gonadal anomalies"

[Guest Andrew Parker]

Everyone who says FTM lower surgeries are bad really haven't done much research. I don't know all that much about metoidioplasty since i plan on having phallo but phallo isnt really as bad as everyone says.

You can have full sensation, have an erection the same way a cis man with ED would, and they really don't look all that different than a cis penis does. People who say they look weird or not like a cis mans penis probably have only seen really old results or phalloplasties in early stages.

Here's a good post that talks about bottom surgeries. I suggest everyone should read it before they make judgements based on myths theyve heard.

[JJ]

Not all the stuff is myths and the above site is good for helping assure guys but the poster is 17 and not a Dr. The information on bottom surgery not yet being optimal as far as appearance and function are from Drs. and people with far more experience than the poster there.

The reality is that there are problems and challenges. It IS painful and it is very expensive in most cases. The erection he is talking about is not natural but with a sleeve or a rod and pump. And as far as sensation-sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't from what I have read. Any surgery involving nerves can have varying outcomes.

Just realities for now. For me one of the issues would be not needing a devise to stand to pee. Something that actually impacts daily life far more than sex for most people. There are actually alternatives for sex and most people don't have sex as often as they use a bathroom. Right now because of the problems with nerve sensation and the high risk of infection that is one of the real challenges with bottom surgery that leaves any feeling of realism beyond reach. Oddly enough the sex issue is probably the easiest rather than the most difficult to work out from what I have read.

There are many stories of post op women going to Drs who could not tell but that is just not the case for us. Not yet. And though I believe that one day a much greater level of reality and function will exist for us because of the challenges of attaching nerves it will continue to be a difficult and expensive process even with a cloned penis for instance. Till then I think asserting that the results of a Metoidioplasty (no matter how much enlargement T gives you it is just well below that of a cis male. I'm intersexed and was unusually developed before T and T enhanced that a lot to the point many STPs won't fit me, but I still could not begin to pass as a cis male in that department) or a phalloplasty which is essentially a complicated skin graft. To say otherwise is denial. Though I understand where the poster on the above referenced site is coming from. I don't think it's healthy to have unreal expectations.

How much that satisfies someone or whether it is worth it to them will vary.Some will only be happy going as far as possible no matter the cost while others will feel that the expense-and the actual surgery cost is not the only expense BTW-there is the lodging for the time you have to stay near the surgeon and the multiple trips involved as well. That can become considerable.

My advise is to read everything you can find on it -carefully consider the source-their motivation and age and then form your own opinions.

Johnny

[Guest aleon515]

My understanding here is that Johnny is correct. Some people are happy with their surgeries (which are very expensive-- ok not like a house, but over $15,000 and usually higher than that, I think that's for a minimal phallo-- no urethral extension). Actually some people are really happy with meta. You know you make a decision, you have a reason for your decision and you stand by your decision, that's not a negative thing. But reality is it is not there.

I think that if that's all that matters to you and you can't be a man without it, well that's bad. Women will like you and respect you if you concentrate on what else is in your personality and head. I think you tend to find what you are expecting.

BTW, surgery could still get better, if you are in the US by the time you could afford it....

But I don't think it will be to the point that mtf surgery is. OTOH there are some people doing great chest reconstruction out there! And T works really well to masculization.

--Jay J