I've Heard About All The Cosmetic Things Mtfs Can Do...

[Guest Itzika]

Okay, so I asked specifically about hair a while ago... Now I'm going to be more general. What can I do, without getting HRT or anything similarly permanent, to make myself look more like a boy?

What I've done so far:

I've actually started debating about cutting my hair (it currently reaches mid-back) or at least getting it straight-cut again (it currently has long layers that are mainly evident around my face and starting about four or five inches down there is the remainder of a purple streak that faded to copper years ago). Earlier I was thinking "No way". Now I feel a little guilty because right on cue, as soon as I started seriously thinking about cutting it I got a lot of barrettes and clips for Christmas. I don't think I would get it cut totally 'boy-short', but I might cut it shorter than it is. Maybe. Still debating.

I don't have a binder, but I have a sports bra that's a size too small for me, and since I never completely filled a B cup that hides most of it, especially with loose shirts.

I have men's shirts and men's jackets that I've been wearing (every other day; the other days I dress more like a girl. It's amazing how much my overall way of dressing doesn't change between the two). I got gi cargo pants for Christmas (because it was the easiest way to ask for androgynous clothing, and I will use them for the purpose they were meant for). I'm going shopping with my friends tomorrow (probably). My MTF friend is getting girls' clothes, and I'm getting guys' clothes. (Although I still don't know how guys' sizes work. Any help with that? In case I can't figure out the clothing size chart like has so far been the case?)

So what else can I do? (In this respect I almost think MTFs and male androgynes have it easier; there are so many more things girls can do that scream "girl" than that guys can do that scream "guy".) Any help would be great!

~Rey

[Guest CharlieRose]

Well, as far as sizes go, get small ones, that is, if you're short like the rest of us. And menswear designers have this really interesting idea as far as pants go: Rather than making up arbitrary sizes to make women feel bad about themselves, they just list the length and circumference of the waistband in inches! (GASP! )

Oh, and I don't know about your face and build and whatnot, but for me, cutting my hair to a boy's length was the best thing I could do, and then clothes. I threw all my girly stuff out. (Well, I donated it, but I got rid of it all and "throwing it out" is more dramatic) I stopped wearing earrings. A guy's cut and clothes, within days I was getting sirred for the first time. I had short-ish hair, a more androgynous cut, but even then people could still tell I was female. It all had to go.

It was scary, and I felt bad giving up perfectly good clothes, (And I got earrings for christmas... sigh) but now, it really has paid off. I look like a guy, all the time. I feel like a guy, I get treated like a guy by my friends, and strangers, at least. It makes me smile.

[Guest Cody_T]

clothes can be kind of weird... make sure you pay attention to both sizes if you're getting pants because the first one is the waist size and the second one is the length size. Take your time, and don't settle for one because it's good enough. Find pants that fit well. It might be worth looking into style tips for girls on how to deemphasize hips or curves or w/e if you have ones that you don't want showing. Make sure that your clothes give you a generally streamlined appearance because that will make it easier.

Haircut- if you're going to do it, do it all the way. Like, you don't need to get it cut to "boy short". But if you're getting it cut shorter, specifically ask for a boy style. A boy style won't preclude you from looking like a girl, and a girl style has a much better chance of making you look only like a girl.

Keep in mind that a lot of passing without T hinges on your face. Strangers will hopefully not be examining your body. It will be up to how you look and act when you're facing them and how you carry yourself. If you have a masculine face then you will have a much better time of it.

Walk like you have testicles. That's basically all there is to it. Don't let your hips sway when you walk, point your feet outward, etc. There are tons of discussions around here about walking. But I've found it easiest just to keep in mind that I have testicles and thus have to keep my legs separated.

the problem though with us trying to pass is that lesbians will wear the exact same things, walk the exact same way, and probably have their hair cut short too. Not all of them, but a large enough amount that people will probably see you that way if you wear accessories or have too girly of a haircut.

So... guy's watch or no watch, don't go with an andro one unless it's not showing, no bracelets, no earrings, etc. Even if you would still wear bracelets and earrings, don't. Wait until T has gotten your body and face to the point where people won't see a girl. If you have feminine hands and arms, wear long sleeved shirts/sweatshirts. Avoid the common lesbian haircuts (not sure what they are but I've heard they exist), etc. And feel free to correct someone if they call you maam or miss or something. If you're confident enough you can make people think they're wrong in assuming you're female (by which they inevitably are thinking about your penis or lack thereof) if you want to.

and yeah, there's a lot more that mtfs can do... but then there's a lot less that we have to do. I like that better

[Guest Emily1]

My tip about pants sizes is just try things on and find out what fits you - every time I go shopping, i forget what size I am, and have to figure it out all over again, and its not too much of a pain. If I'm buying new, I just find a style I like and grab one of each size. Once I try each of them on and know which size fits best, I can look around for other pants of that size.

[Guest Evan_J]

Rather than making up arbitrary sizes to make women feel bad about themselves, they just list the length and circumference of the waistband in inches! (GASP! )

When I found that out (some years ago) I actually almost had a breakdown of emotional relief lol I was like "you mean there was a rational way people were making clothing all along???!!!!!" lol The length part is your inseam measurement. The distance from crotch to the bottom of your ankle. You might want take note of that measurement on a particularly good fitting pair of pants in case you ever need a pair altered.

Some other stuff I found about mens pants:

Detail #1: Pleated or flat-front dress pants

Pleated pants

Pleats work well if you have larger thighs or if you carry extra weight low on your torso.

One or two pleats can give a classic look to dress pants.

Pleats can be too much on a slimmer man.

Pleated pants require a cuff.

Flat-front pants

If you have larger thighs, flat-front pants may not accommodate your size.

Flat-front pants are very modern.

Flat-front pants flatter men with slim builds.

Flat-front pants can go with or without a cuff.

Detail #2: Cuffs or no cuffs

Cuffs

Cuffs are flattering on tall, lanky men.

Pleated pants need the weight of a cuff to hold the pleat in place.

If pants have cuffs when you buy them, a tailor can't take them away without dramatically changing the pants.

No cuffs

Shorter men will look taller without cuffs.

You don't need a cuff on flat-front pants.

Pants purchased without cuffs can have cuffs added by a tailor if you want.

other things to think about:

Slim fit or wide legs: It's not just a matter of fashion--different pants styles work better on different body types. Slender men will want to choose slim-fitting slacks so they won't look like they're borrowing clothes from Dad. Men who are larger on top--either with a belly or a muscular chest--will want to choose wide leg pants to balance their upper and lower halves.

And if you ever need dress shirts they work the same way; by measurements. The top number on the tag will be your neck size, the ones under it will be arm length.

I hope some of this is helpful. Happy huntin

[Guest Itzika]

Pleats work well if you have larger thighs or if you carry extra weight low on your torso.

...

Pleated pants need the weight of a cuff to hold the pleat in place.

...

Shorter men will look taller without cuffs.

*headdesk* Great. I'm short (average/tall for a girl) and got my mom's thighs. How about I just avoid dress pants entirely?

Thanks all!

Brief update: The shopping trip has been postponed to tomorrow--SOMEONE wouldn't go without their gf (EM!). So it will probably be tomorrow, if said gf can come then. (She better be able--everyone else can. One androgyne, one MTF, one seriously confused (read: me), and one cisgendered gf. Sounds like a party. )

My aunt was in town today. She has three sons, so I asked her about clothing sizes. Apparently I should have told her earlier I was interested in guys' clothes--she has a bunch of my cousins' old clothes that they can't wear anymore that she saved because she liked them. But they're two states away, and she won't be back there for I don't know how long.

~Rey

[Guest Evan_J]

*headdesk* Great. I'm short (average/tall for a girl) and got my mom's thighs.

Personally I'd say go with the pleated cuff. But thats just an opinion (Or pleated uncuff, and yes you can find them)

<--just likes pleats (I can't help it, my first "favorite pants" were pleated lol)

[Guest CharlieRose]

the problem though with us trying to pass is that lesbians will wear the exact same things, walk the exact same way, and probably have their hair cut short too. Not all of them, but a large enough amount that people will probably see you that way if you wear accessories or have too girly of a haircut.

So... guy's watch or no watch, don't go with an andro one unless it's not showing, no bracelets, no earrings, etc. Even if you would still wear bracelets and earrings, don't. Wait until T has gotten your body and face to the point where people won't see a girl. If you have feminine hands and arms, wear long sleeved shirts/sweatshirts. Avoid the common lesbian haircuts (not sure what they are but I've heard they exist), etc.

Those would be a fauxhawk, a short mohawk (like an inch or so high), and a shaved head. Most especially the shaved head. Unless you have a magically passable face, don't do it! It'll make you look like a girl with a shaved head. I dunno, I think it's something about the shape of your head and the way it reveals your face. You don't want to show off how round and soft your face is, you wanna complement it.

And hairdressers can be annoying sometimes, you'll have to insist that you want a guy's cut. Not androgynous, not like a guy's, a guy's haircut, otherwise you'll end up with a girly one. It took me a couple tries, but I got there in the end. I love my hair now.

Not that you have to do that all right now. Depending on circumstance and what you're comfortable with, transitioning in the clothing and hair manner can take a while. God knows I clung to my sparkly, tight Kermit the frog T-shirt and my favorite "Pirate's Life for Me," Jack Sparrow one for way too long. But, just in case you need to know, either now or later.

[Guest Itzika]

Those would be a fauxhawk, a short mohawk (like an inch or so high), and a shaved head. Most especially the shaved head. Unless you have a magically passable face, don't do it! It'll make you look like a girl with a shaved head. I dunno, I think it's something about the shape of your head and the way it reveals your face. You don't want to show off how round and soft your face is, you wanna complement it.

And hairdressers can be annoying sometimes, you'll have to insist that you want a guy's cut. Not androgynous, not like a guy's, a guy's haircut, otherwise you'll end up with a girly one. It took me a couple tries, but I got there in the end. I love my hair now.

Not that you have to do that all right now. Depending on circumstance and what you're comfortable with, transitioning in the clothing and hair manner can take a while. God knows I clung to my sparkly, tight Kermit the frog T-shirt and my favorite "Pirate's Life for Me," Jack Sparrow one for way too long. But, just in case you need to know, either now or later.

Would it REALLY weird out the hairdresser I normally go to (Mom's) if I told her I wanted a guy's cut? Heh. Should I just suck it up and ask anyway? Or go to a different hairdresser? (You're talking to the person who can barely get the words out when someone's trying to take over my story and I don't want them to. Fighting a hairdresser in their turf? Nooooot my thing.)

~Rey

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Hey other direction for me - but who cares - got a bit to add. I have started attending a lot of Transgender support groups - and over half of the people who show up are young FTM. Going from that perspective, and as I am seriously senior, and can be like your GreatAunt Lizzy, what can I add?

The Guys I saw passing are usually wearing

Boots or really masculine shoes. flip flops? No, exposed girly feet don't pass

Heavy socks

Men's watches, maybe - no other jewelery men's or otherwise. No 'guy' ear studs even

men's jeans - which are never form fitting. Don't iron or press anything - guys are usually too much in a hurry to do that.

men's leather belts - medium or large buckles - not fancy

Workshirts - no short sleeves - don't roll up th sleeves - too girly

Usually other shirts under the main shirt to bulk up a bit - teeshirts - sweatshirts

Short hair - usually gelled and spiked

apparently - bound breasts - flat chests

attitude - usually a big smile of self confidence - the male smile is a killer in presenting as a man.

voice heavy with male words, flat in presentation (almost monotone) and always assertive

What needs to be minimized or covered up:

Short height (how you cover that up -donno)

Thin arms

Smallish hands

Voice too girlish in vocabulary and phrasing - and sorta sing-song in presentation - and too tentative in wording

I don't want to be discouringing - all the FTM that seemed not to pass had not started HRT - and did seem butch rather than masculine

The ones that passed best had been on HRT and most had facial hair.

Hope this helps - I am not sure if everyone FTM wants to dress like a lumberjack all the time. Evan and others made good suggestions on when you want to dress better.

[Guest Itzika]

Update and another request for advice:

Finally got a haircut. I actually did get it cut short short, although not in the 'boy-short' range yet. It's an androgynous cut (didn't bring up the guy's cut thing... *is a bit of a coward*) and I love it. I look like a masculine girl/feminine guy, somewhere in that range. Which (for the moment at least) is EXACTLY where I'm comfortable being. (Next time I get it cut--probably in a couple months--I'm going to get it shorter, same basic style. The style/cut, btw, is one that I found on both girls and guys when I was looking. I was passing a mirror in a store, looked just for fun, and could absolutely have believed that I was a boy. My heart about stopped for a moment from shock and joy.) *has to tell a(nother) story* At school one day soon after I got my hair cut, I was sitting in the library across from a not-so-close friend, and one of the two friends who call me "Rey" called me that automatically. The boy asked, "What?" He wanted to know if I was "going lesbian". I tried very hard and just about suppressed my thoughts on that subject.

Also, the same friend signed me in as "Rey" in extended day today. *happy dance*

So... why am I asking for advice again?

At school we just started Immersion, which is a month-long intensive study in one subject we wouldn't normally get to study--no regular school. Praise *insert favorite deity's name here*. I'm doing Project Runway, which, just like it sounds, is four weeks of fashion and clothing. And because we're making clothes for ourselves, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to bring up the whole "I am not, and have no desire to be, all girl" thing to our teacher. I'm not even entirely sure what difference it would make, but I really want to bring it up so she can maybe help me look at... well, less all-girl clothes I could make. And I have no idea how I can, or even if I should, bring it up.

~Rey

P.S. It just came to my attention that Mom is very upset that we got (technically she got me since it's her card, but it was before I started regularly semi-binding so I was pretty okay/happy about it) several well-fitting bras that I never wear. I only ever wear the one sports bra that's too small and makes me look less female. I don't know what to do about that... I hate her being upset... But I don't wanna wear the fitted bras (most days... some days I do, but those have been fairly nonexistent lately)...

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

My tip about pants sizes is just try things on and find out what fits you - every time I go shopping, i forget what size I am, and have to figure it out all over again, and its not too much of a pain. If I'm buying new, I just find a style I like and grab one of each size. Once I try each of them on and know which size fits best, I can look around for other pants of that size.

before discovering my trans (MTF) status I could never remember what size pants I wore, were it not for my then partner I would have needed a list to tell me my pant and shirt sizes. So dont worry if you cant remember, just hold the pants up to your waist, if they are long enough and go half way around you then in all likelihood they will fit, but check first returning things can be such a pain.

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

Workshirts - no short sleeves - don't roll up th sleeves - too girly

Short sleeves are acceptible on dress shirts and tshirts, as for not rolling the sleeves up. If you ever saw me in guy mode, any long sleeved shirt I ever wore (save my military uniform) had the sleeves rolled up unless I had to wear a suit jacket with it. If you are going to roll the sleeves up try to do it somewhat uniformly, that is have both sleeves at or nearly at the same altitude.

[Guest Alex2]

It's great that you like your haircut. Nice going on the move to shorter hair.

There are some ways you tell a hairdresser you want a guy's haircut without really telling them. You can say you want a short cut without wispy bangs. Then just direct them, like "I want this part shorter," or "can you buzz it a little here," stuff like that until you get it the way you want it. That way you don't have to say you want a guy's haircut but that's the end result anyway.

With the school thing, you may be able to take the same tact. You could explain that dresses and more feminine clothing are not your style and that you want to take it in a different direction. There are plenty of cisgendered girls who wouldn't be comfortable dressing as feminine as the models in Project Runway. It could even be a creative direction you decide to take it in, deciding to make a unisex line. Your teacher might just accept it as your artistic vision.