Curious About Intersex ?

[Guest mia 1]

I have been curious how people define and categorize Inter SEx. Googled the topic and found the most wonderful website by the Inte Sex Society of North America. There are many pages and topics, it could take and should take hours of reading to understand the beauty, mystery, scientific, and the descimination of this segment of our transgenderd goup. Noticed that this is the least posted section of the forum, why is that ? The more you know about Intersexed the closer it is to the androgynous subset......FYI mia.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I have been curious how people define and categorize Inter SEx. Googled the topic and found the most wonderful website by the Inte Sex Society of North America. There are many pages and topics, it could take and should take hours of reading to understand the beauty, mystery, scientific, and the descimination of this segment of our transgenderd goup. Noticed that this is the least posted section of the forum, why is that ? The more you know about Intersexed the closer it is to the androgynous subset......FYI mia.

Mia - i have wondered about the same thing.

I looked at a few other sites. My guess is that the 'intesex' are usually well immersed in the care of the medical profession - and rarely have the issues like cross dressers and transgender do - where we have to seek therapy just to DISCOVER what we probably are.

I can see the 'intersex' sharing the same need as the transgender to transition in some cases. Androgyne considerations seem very close to 'intersex' interests.

Heres what I found - and please excuse that I posted it in another topic:

Intersex (a term which I find the 'intersex' don't like - they are trying to be defined as DSD - Disorders of Sexual Development)

Klinefelter Syndrome - occurs in 1 per 500 males but usually goes undetected (an XXY genetic person) seems high

Hermaphrodite - extremely rare but I cannot find an occurance rate

AIS (Androggen Insensitivity Syndrome) - 1/20,000 births - (feminization of the XY genetic person)

Turner's Syndrome - 1/2500 females - some cases lead to masculinization of the XX genetic person

5ARD (five alpha-reductace Deficiency) Dominican Republic specific genetic disorder - 1/90 males - feminization of the XY genetic person

There are other conditions - this was just a short listing.

Anyone at Laura's experienced with Disorders of Sexual Development?

[Guest mia 1]

Elizabeth go back to the Intersex web site and it will give the occurance for hermapodite studies. By the way the Intersex society closed their operation sorry no pun intended down in 2006, probably because of the term DSD. Any way all the stats are their, and for all the above mentionde groups not just hermaphodite, which they called by a more P.C. term. It is endless this P.C. thing isn't it.?

[Guest Little Sara]

I'll second what mia 1 said.

ISNA was the one to make up the term DSD, with the spurious notion that it was "less stigmatizing", as if using the term Disorder was less stigmatizing than a rather neutral term like intersex. Their reason was mainly to prevent people identifying as intersex, to remove the ambiguity. ISNA continually stated that the overwhelming majority of intersex people identified as male or female, and not an intermediate category, and not with their condition. They didn't consult intersex people themselves to decide this though.

DSD only makes it more likely that doctors and parents would view it as an abberation and want to operate their children non-consensually as soon as possible even if there was no health reason to precipiate this.

The data given for each condition presupposes the superiority of chromosomal sex.

XXY syndrome (inaccurately called Klinefelter, Klinefelter is an altogether different thing than simply having a 47,XXY karyotype) says it only occurs in males, while its been shown repeatedly that women, even fertile women who have birthed children, can have a 47,XXY karyotype. Their proportion is unknown.

The better way to term it for the 1/500~1000 statistic might be to say phenotypically male at birth, because that's the only thing they're basing themselves on to say "male". XXY syndrome proponents always posit that it's "an added X to a XY model", but why not "an added Y to an XX model"? This pushes the "testosterone-only" model of medical intervention proposed in cases of this syndrome. Estrogen is never presented as an alternative, and often, testosterone is pushed from doctor to parent, with the assumption that "its the best thing to do", without consulting the child about options before potentially making a destructive move in his life. Not to mention the extreme dosages doctors tend to prescribe (FtM like dosage, but XXY syndrome people have working testes, if undeveloped), causing more issues than they solve.

5-alpha-reductase also ignores the validity of the sex identity of people who choose to refuse the male assignment at puberty (since they look female prior to it) through hormonal therapy and later surgical operation. It also assigns them the label male, and ISNA was a proponent in making sure any of its 5ARD members was properly adult males, or else they were traitors not worthy of an iota of concern.

The reductionist model of ISNA proposed that anyone who rejected the initial sex assignment was not intersex, but simply "a lying transsexual", which probably fueled the notion that transsexual people posed as intersex to get more social acceptance (I have no doubt some did, but ISNA's attitude was only making matters worse). Those people were not considered worthy of being supported and were to be excluded.

Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis, also called Turner Mosaicism, 45,XO, 46,XY, male assigned in 90% of cases, 5% of cases ambiguous, 5% female assigned, gender identity unknown. Very incomplete data on its existence, let alone its prevalence or incidence.

AIS varies in assignment on a grading scale of degree of virilization and sensitivity to testosterone. From grade 1 (male-assigned, nothing drawing attention at birth genitally) to grade 7 (female-assigned, nothing drawing attention at birth genitally, lack of axiliary and pubic hair even with puberty). The prevalence of Complete AIS (grade 7) is estimated at 1/20,400 by AISSG, but even they admit they have no known figure for Partial AIS (all other grades), since they can easily be overlooked.

For example, AIS is based on the notion of a 46,XY karyotype. Grade 1-3 are likely to be assigned male, and also have a 46,XY karyotype. The karyotype seemingly normal to the doctor, does not bring concern. Sensitivity to testosterone may be assessed in grade 3, but is unlikely to even be tried in grade 1 or 2, due to underlying causes not being checked or their attention not drawn to genitals who seem perfectly normal to them. The only remaining way they check for it is breast tissue growth at puberty without exogenous estrogen. This occurs in less than half of people with the syndrome - that are even known to have it. They also say infertility, but well, not everyone "tries out" their fertility to warrant checking it, and some people don't care at all about their fertility (I certainly didn't) making doctors overlook the majority of these male-assigned cases.

Even nowadays, it is considered standard. I have seen no document proposing better screening for AIS post-birth, that would allow its detection and its management afterwards.

[Guest mia 1]

An amazing reply. Are you a physician? Scholarly post doctoral in detail and style. Congrats on a fine and educated mind.......................Mia

[Guest Little Sara]

Actually I'm just a high school graduate. No degree or anything. But I've done extensive research since 2006 about intersex conditions, with the available information online from various sources, from medical journals (free sources), support groups, forums and such. My research is by no means scholarly. It also includes my own personal experience.

The notions about ISNA is something that was plain as day during its existence.

It helps that I also hate injustices being perpetrated and many are done in that field, justified by "medical emergency", but mostly, forcing the social conformity of intersex people, fitting them into a mold. ISNA is not the only culprit. Medical journals have long called AIS "testicular feminization" and it's common, even to this day, to have someone with Complete AIS (totally immune to testosterone, completely female body save for internal organs) be told that they are "really male" (because of XY chromosomes and testes).

I've heard that as many as 25% of intersex people reject the initial sex assignment. I'm not sure how many from this proportion go on to transition. People with CAIS cannot reject the initial sex assignment (they could never transition as FtMs do), so the ratio really varies by condition.

April Ashley was thought to have an intersex condition during her famous 1970 divorce trial. As far as her biography says, it was never investigated afterwards. Considering her looks, even after forced testosterone therapy, its very possible.

I'm not sure, but I remember reading something about Harry Benjamin estimating that a high proportion of transsexual women who came to see him had likely intersex conditions. It makes sense to me that intersex people kept in secrecy about the very existence of their condition, if it was even known, would seek to correct what they perceived a mistake in assignment. They were also pretty feminine-looking prior to any hormonal treatment (which at the time was almost a requirement).

[Guest Cazz333]

What CAIS women who want to be men? They would have a horrid time not being able to transit to men thanks to their inability to process androgens. I've wondered is there such a thing as being an XXY female being that a fetus has XX in some cells and XXY in others. A sort of XX/ XXY or even just XY mosiacism. Just wondering.

XXX and XYY is interesting as those people could walk through life thinking their XX and XY respectively but they're not.