Male criminals who become women behind bars

[Guest Gypsyfeenix]

Okay folks. Calm down. I won't say this again.

MaryEllen

No worries, ME...I'm done.

It's a touchy subject on the best of days, and I for one am finished.

[KathrynJulia]

I've read how this issue has raised a visceral anger in the public mind. I know how I was before I began HRT and began transition. I experienced a lot of anger over the years. When my doctor asked how I was feeling taking estrogen. It took all of two second to answer his question. A great calm had decended over me. The anger was no longer there and I experienced joy, something that my life lacked much of the time pre-HRT and pre-transition. I took much of that anger out on my pillow at night. I've been pretty kind to my pillow this past year.

My experience says life isn't fair and some people would seriously benefit by treatment. Kathryn

[Guest Megan_Lynn]

lets look at this in numbers the entire population of Canada is 33,476,688 this is less then the state of California at 38,041,430 and the entire United States population at 313,919,040 Now lets look at the population of Ontario 12,851,821 , Quebec 7,903,001 , British Columbia 4,400,057 , Saskatchewan 1,033,381 this comes to a combined total of 26,188,260 or 76-77 percent of the entire countries population has coverage for SRS/GRS. This alone makes it 76-77 percent better for all trans people in Canada then in the states. The states have 313,919,040 people that are not covered by government SRS/GRs while only 7,288,428 people in Canada are without this coverage. So basically the United States has a 43 times greater chance a person is denied coverage. Factoring in that there is a average of the same amount of trans people per capita in Canada as in The United States. ( ex 1-200 1-1000 ect)

Are you honestly trying to say that because of RATIO, our transfolk have it easier than americans?

I am offended that you would say something like that. It catty and to minimize someone else's pain based on population is not acceptable. I'm done having this petty conversation. I am shocked and disappointed that you would belittle the pain of others this way....

The numbers were just to show that 76-77 percent of the population of Canada had access to SRS/GRs paid for from the provinces. While zero people in the United states have this. Not sure how this would minimize anyones pain nor was anyone pain even mentioned. I was merely stating how I felt that it was heeps easier for the average Canadian trans person then the average American trans person to access SRS/GRS. And yes Gay marriage effects trans people in so many ways so yes it makes it alot easier for trans people in Canada as well. is anyones suffering any less then anoughter because of were they live well yes and no. Trans people will all suffer at one time or anoughter because of how society likes to see us trans people. But depending on location and laws it can be alot easier to get by at one place then anoughter. From speaking to many trans people over the years from your country and many from my country it seems the opportunities, laws and society in general make it alot better place to be in Canada then in the United States.

As for me I have been on HRT for 4 1/2 years without being able to afford to get SRS/GRS and most likely never will be able. This over time will most likely end up trashing my liver from all the spiro from so may years on it. If one of the states in this country of mine would start offering government paid SRS/GRs there is zero drought that I would not be packing up and moving. Even if this included hitch hiking the entire way with no place to go once I get there as I would do pretty much anything to make my mind and body match. That is while still being a law abiding person. I will most likely be dead and gone before my country wakes up and starts funding for SRS/GRS.

I laughed at the HRT at Walmart.. Yes my country loves to put a pharmacy in any building it can. I have to pay out of pocket for my HRt and cause I use patches its very expensive for me. Averages around 140 a month . My endo wants me on alot higher dose then I am on now but I just could not aford it.

[Guest Nicole9]

Ok everyone just take a breath.

This is an Australian articular here the general population gets some health care coverage (not 100% sure what the government will cover but pity sure it ain't all costs associated with transitioning) But a prisoner has access to full health cover. Kinda erked me a bit, not because they are not entitled to cover but the government hasn't universal views on the matter that everyone isn't entitled to the same level of care. (really sorry for you guys in the states/ Canada that's a real raw deal)

Oh well stay out of jail everyone

[Guest Melissa~]

I really don't have a problem with prisons covering SRS. Saying the societal standard is to discriminate on required medical does nothing to address getting society to move forward on medical care. The incarceration at full cost to society -is- societies decision, own it. I for one support halving or more the incarceration rate.

[Guest Leah1026]

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/call-me-michelle-the-killers-who-become-women-behind-bars/story-e6frfkp9-1226615750377

Getting back to the original post ands link...

As I've stated on another site:

People are missing the obvious. The article continues a long media tradition of negatively portraying and vilifying transsexual WOMEN. Transsexual men are, again, ignored, as if they don't exist.

[Guest chngnwnd]

I have mixed emotions about this, but in the end of the day it is about equality. Non transgender inmates receive medically necessary care. To deny transgender inmates medically necessary care relegates transgender individuals to second class status. The momentum created as a result of court decisions to pay for SRS helps us all.

Bobbi

[Guest Robin Winter]

I have mixed emotions about this, but in the end of the day it is about equality. Non transgender inmates receive medically necessary care. To deny transgender inmates medically necessary care relegates transgender individuals to second class status. The momentum created as a result of court decisions to pay for SRS helps us all.

Bobbi

That's actually a very good point I hadn't considered.

[Guest LizMarie]

I have mixed emotions about this, but in the end of the day it is about equality. Non transgender inmates receive medically necessary care. To deny transgender inmates medically necessary care relegates transgender individuals to second class status. The momentum created as a result of court decisions to pay for SRS helps us all.

Bobbi

And this is the crux of the matter. Many trans people who are not criminals feel this is wrong because they are not covered. But that is not the fault of the prison system. It's the fault of insurance companies that try to wiggle around medical procedures that are proven over 70+ years by calling them "experimental" even still. This would be like calling an appendectomy experimental.

Direct your anger at the insurers who use these sorts of loopholes to try to avoid this coverage.

And cost is not an issue. If we accept that 1 in 2500 males is MtF and seeks SRS (not all MtFs seek SRS), and we recognize that SRS is a once in a lifetime event, and that working lifetime is approximately 40 years long, and that the average SRS cost is $25,000 (this is too high but I'm being generous), then the cost per person per year in the overall insurance pool is $0.25 per year or just over $0.02 per month. Add in a 50% profit margin to that and it's basically $0.03 cents per month on your health insurance costs.

Even if you inflated the costs to ten times that (i.e. 1 in 250 males is MtF seeking SRS which is an absurd number), it would still be $0.30 per month per insured person in the pool.

Even greed can't be pointed at as a cause here because the insurance companies wouldn't make oodles of money from this even if it was included and they certainly won't lose money. The only excuses for the insurance companies are either ignorance or bigotry.

And before someone points out that SRS can be optionally bought by individual companies as a rider to the insurance policy, my point is that it should not have to be done that way! An appendectomy is not covered on a rider. SRS ought to be in the base policy and there is almost no excuse for why it is not except bad excuses.

[Sakura]

There is a reason prision is call " punishment" and not a "vacation " over the years i have looked at those trans inmates petitioning for this most of these people are, well i think "angery " is a gross understament. many of those who are petitioning and or have recived the op while be hind bars . seem to be murderes and rapist and child molesters doing life long stints in there for THEIR crimes. Many i would wager do not like prision life as a male. i find it also interesting that almost all of them began thier transitions in prision , and i would be willing to bet that most did so to escape the much more violent evrions of male prision. i mean they are obviousely not getting out so what better way to get out than to find your way to a female prision . it isn't like lying about it would be below them. most of them thier crimes are simply appauling and deserve the punishment that is dealt to them . anger is one thing , being angery about ones situation is one thing. putting a shotgun into some one mouth and blowing thier head off is totally something else.violently raping and tourturing some one todeath is something totally different than simply being angery.

and the handfull that are allowed to be moved to female prisions well the case history shows that they continue thier violence. Maddison Hall in this very artical after being moved to a female prision began sexualy assulting his cell mates.....

I feel not one ounce of sympathy for any of their plight . and it is not me being jelous or angery that they may get something that i have to work my arse off for. when some one is sentenced to life in prision their sentence is for the remainder of thier natural life . when one gets cancer developes a heart condition and needs a heart transplant. well i am sorry but that to me marks the coming of the end of thier sentence. we put more money into keeping these murdering raping scumbags happy and healthy while behind bars than we put into schools and education. the health insurance and well being of law abiding peoples .

it is disheartening that good behavior goes with out reward, and being a murder gets you everything it seems, fed clothes access to state of the art exercise wquipment and medical insurance

guess it is just the world we live in

Sakura

[Guest Hannah]

prision is called " punishment"

Sakura

Prison should not be punishment, in my opinion. The government should not be in the business of punishing people, but instead on keeping society safe. Perhaps fear of punishment helps to keep society safe -- but I still don't like framing it as punishment...

As the issue in general I don't think the problem is so much that inmates get medically necessary treatment, but that regular people on the outside don't.

[Guest Cloudygirl27]

prision is called " punishment"

Sakura

Prison should not be punishment, in my opinion. The government should not be in the business of punishing people, but instead on keeping society safe. Perhaps fear of punishment helps to keep society safe -- but I still don't like framing it as punishment...

As the issue in general I don't think the problem is so much that inmates get medically necessary treatment, but that regular people on the outside don't.

Are you serious? "Prison should not be a punishment"? It actually took me a few minutes and a glass of water to get my head around that statement. So, lets say that a friend of yours gets hurt or murdered and the offender for the crime is sent to prison. You don't think he or she should be punished for that act? No wonder criminals are not afraid to do the crime because doing the time is basically a vacation with free meals, medical care, etc.

I would have to agree with Sakura. You do the crime, you shouldn't be allowed any privileges besides basic medical needs and a sanitary area.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

prision is called " punishment"

Sakura

Prison should not be punishment, in my opinion. The government should not be in the business of punishing people, but instead on keeping society safe. Perhaps fear of punishment helps to keep society safe -- but I still don't like framing it as punishment...

As the issue in general I don't think the problem is so much that inmates get medically necessary treatment, but that regular people on the outside don't.

Part of the job of keeping people safe, is having the power to back up the laws that do so. I mean no offense but Prison absolutely should be and must be a punishment. Murderers, Rapists, and others who end or ruin peoples lives truly have no business being happy especially at tax payers expense.

[jessica_282]

In reading about these inmates it seems quite clear that the male anatomy, testes (testosterone) is the culprit, and in basic removal of them would solve the problem. That would seem necessary to them and deems appropriate to me. But funding a full SRS is going above and beyond that what is necessary. Let them fund anything other than a basic orchidectomy

[Guest KarenLyn]

I don't believe public funds should be used to pay for SRS for criminals. I wouldn't even be willing to pay for facial hair removal. I would be ok with them being maintained at whatever point they are in their transition if they started before their incarceration. Everything else would have to be put on hold. It's their own fault for breaking the law.

It makes me angry when inmates abuse the system when there are plenty of people who work hard and can barely manage basic health care.

my 2¢

Karen

[MaryEllen]

(cough) Kosilek. (cough cough)

Kosilek is a vicious murderer. Convicted of garroting his wife to death. This scumbag should get free SRS??? No way!

MaryEllen

[Guest sophia.gentry58]

I have mixed emotions about this, but in the end of the day it is about equality. Non transgender inmates receive medically necessary care. To deny transgender inmates medically necessary care relegates transgender individuals to second class status. The momentum created as a result of court decisions to pay for SRS helps us all.

Bobbi

And this is the crux of the matter. Many trans people who are not criminals feel this is wrong because they are not covered. But that is not the fault of the prison system. It's the fault of insurance companies that try to wiggle around medical procedures that are proven over 70+ years by calling them "experimental" even still. This would be like calling an appendectomy experimental.

Direct your anger at the insurers who use these sorts of loopholes to try to avoid this coverage.

And cost is not an issue. If we accept that 1 in 2500 males is MtF and seeks SRS (not all MtFs seek SRS), and we recognize that SRS is a once in a lifetime event, and that working lifetime is approximately 40 years long, and that the average SRS cost is $25,000 (this is too high but I'm being generous), then the cost per person per year in the overall insurance pool is $0.25 per year or just over $0.02 per month. Add in a 50% profit margin to that and it's basically $0.03 cents per month on your health insurance costs.

Even if you inflated the costs to ten times that (i.e. 1 in 250 males is MtF seeking SRS which is an absurd number), it would still be $0.30 per month per insured person in the pool.

Even greed can't be pointed at as a cause here because the insurance companies wouldn't make oodles of money from this even if it was included and they certainly won't lose money. The only excuses for the insurance companies are either ignorance or bigotry.

And before someone points out that SRS can be optionally bought by individual companies as a rider to the insurance policy, my point is that it should not have to be done that way! An appendectomy is not covered on a rider. SRS ought to be in the base policy and there is almost no excuse for why it is not except bad excuses.

Thanks LizMarie

That really puts matters in proper perspective.

Sophia

[Guest KimberlyF]

To me there is anger that makes someone a loud obnoxious jerk. That anger can be dealt with.

You carve someone up, if it wasn't self-defense or defending another innocent, I don't want to hear about excuses. Sit in this little cage and do not enjoy life.

[Guest Jenni_S]

(cough) Kosilek. (cough cough)

Kosilek is a vicious murderer. Convicted of garroting his wife to death. This scumbag should get free SRS??? No way!

MaryEllen

Yes indeed, Mary Ellen, and yet there seem to be plenty that support Kosilek getting that surgery. The general opinion seems to be that if this goes forward, it will be that much easier for people to have the costs covered in general, and for their own self, when the time comes.

So really, this case? THIS case?? Why does the "community" choose this one to back, and support? "The ends justify the means" seems to be what is going on here. If I get mine, great, it was all worth it! To those that have felt that way, a few questions to you. Ones that I've asked before, in fact.

Kosilek is a convicted murderer, who has admitted the crime. He is sentenced to life without parole. Cheryl McCaul, the spouse, was found in the back seat of her car, strangled with rope and piano wire, so viciously that her head was nearly severed. This is the person who is now being supported by a significant faction of the transgender community, so that they can get theirs? Is that all that matters? Has this community become so self-centered that it's SRS by any means necessary now, as long as I don't have to pay for it?

Many people say that trans people are all sorts of nasty things. Crazy, nuts, deviant, the list goes on. And the community doesn't like it. And yet, said community will support this person. Yes, they should get their SRS covered by the state, because that'll open all sorts of doors for us! Really? Do you think that'll help that at-large population's opinion, the ones that think the trans are crazy, nuts, deviant and so on? With things like this going on, I don't have to wonder very much why they might think that way.

There are plenty of people who would be far more worthy of community support. People who have had miscarriages of justice done to them, people who can't make ends meet despite doing everything they can, people who would give you their last dollar if it would help you more than them, and, yes, people who haven't murdered their wives.

But what do I know? You might get your way; perhaps the Kosilek case will make it so you never have to pay one cent to have your dream realized. And when you're there, on the table, waiting for the anesthesiologist, I hope you see this.

Who's that? Oh, that's Cheryl McCaul. The woman who had to die so that Kosilek could make the case for SRS.

Any community that would disregard the murder of a person, to advance their own agenda, is not my community.

So I ask, again, since it won't go away, why this case?

[Carolyn Marie]

I sat on a death penalty case, and was the jury foreperson. Having seen what such a criminal looks like up close and personal, and having seen the results of the kinds of wounds left by that kind of an attack (it was a knife attack, not a garroting, but the type of wound is similar), I have absolutely no sympathy for such a heartless criminal. An attack like that is not a crime of passion, it is thoughtful and deliberate, hate filled and merciless. I would not want my tax dollars, or anyone else's, to pay for GRS.

I don't support the death penalty, but I do not, could not, support that kind of medical treatment for a convicted murderer.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Profit from a crime must never be condoned regardless of the profit, crime, organization, intent, or motivation.

Brenda

[Guest Leah1026]

Jennie said:

Kosilek is a convicted murderer, who has admitted the crime. He is sentenced to life without parole. Cheryl McCaul, the spouse, was found in the back seat of her car, strangled with rope and piano wire, so viciously that her head was nearly severed. This is the person who is now being supported by a significant faction of the transgender community, so that they can get theirs?

First, I've already finished transition years ago, so that is a non-factor for me.

Why?

Frankly I'm surprised I have to explain this at all.

I think we all know the pain and misery of gender dysphoria. To deny a person treatment to eleviate said pain and misery is cruel and unusual punishment. It's like telling a cancer patient "Sorry, no chemo or surgery for you". But prisoners with cancer do get treatment and that's okay, hmmmm.

Carolyn Marie said:

I would not want my tax dollars, or anyone else's, to pay for GRS.

Michelle has been fighting the state on this for 20 years. In that time the state has spent millions to deny her treatment. So your are okay with spending multi-millions instead of 40-50k for transitional medical treament? Tell me that's logical.

Last, I think many here are dealing with internalized transphobia. We don't want to be further stigmatized by being associated with Michelle Kosileck. To prove how normal we are we're willing to sacrifice one of our own. Let me make it clear: I despise the crime, but she has a constitutional right, as a ward of the state, to medically necessary care. You deny her that right and you're all helping to deny yourself that same right.

[MaryEllen]

I find it appalling many in the transgender community are supporting the right of this murderous scumbag to have SRS funded by the tax payers of Massachusetts. That the mean, nasty state of Massachusetts is not willing to give poor,pitiful, persecuted Michelle Kosilek the surgery that she needs. I cannot get free SRS, Yet some of you bleeding hearts think it's cruel to deny this puke bag her right to get free SRS. Does she have more rights than I do?

I am a transsexual woman. I am ashamed and disgusted that this person identifies as the same.

Take a good look. This is the face of pure evil. A murderous monster. This SOB deserves and has the right to have free SRS but I do not??

[Guest KimberlyF]

I find it appalling many in the transgender community are supporting the right of this murderous scumbag to have SRS funded by the tax payers of Massachusetts. That the mean, nasty state of Massachusetts is not willing to give poor,pitiful, persecuted Michelle Kosilek the surgery that she needs. I cannot get free SRS, Yet some of you bleeding hearts think it's cruel to deny this puke bag her right to get free SRS. Does she have more rights than I do?

I am a transsexual woman. I am ashamed and disgusted that this person identifies as the same.

Take a good look. This is the face of pure evil. A murderous monster. This SOB deserves and has the right to have free SRS but I do not??

Like.

[Drea]

Kosilek is a convicted murderer, who has admitted the crime. He is sentenced to life without parole. Cheryl McCaul, the spouse, was found in the back seat of her car, strangled with rope and piano wire, so viciously that her head was nearly severed. This is the person who is now being supported by a significant faction of the transgender community, so that they can get theirs? Is that all that matters? Has this community become so self-centered that it's SRS by any means necessary now, as long as I don't have to pay for it?

As I read this I can hear the justification, like when any MTF engages in so action that is predominatly associated with males "But women can be vicious murderers too, that terrible action doesn't mean she is any less a woman"

Many people say that trans people are all sorts of nasty things. Crazy, nuts, deviant, the list goes on. And the community doesn't like it. And yet, said community will support this person.

And the community's recent obcession over restroom just adds to those perceptions and in similar fashion the way it supports those instances where there is some problem with an MTF using a womens restroom or locker room where the trans person in question is doing something pervy (e.g. Colleen Francis). I am all for supporting the medically indicated needs, but the community doesn't promote that, but rather promotes use of womens facilities based solely upon presentation at the moment, intended presentation or self identifcation (regardless of presentation) and in no way is linked to any medically supervised transition.

Community support for these sorts of things is what polarizes the majority of so called trans-phobes into opposing the trans agenda.