Another Restroom Story

[Guest -guest-]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359599/Transgender-nursing-student-threatened-charges-expulsion-keeps-using-womens-bathroom.html

[VickySGV]

Why is it that we are subserviant to the "complainers"? Have they ever been in the RR with the person?? Was the compainer even capable of describing the TG person, or pointing them out in a crowd, or did they complain because an acquaintance of an acquaintance of an acquaintance of an .... merely told them there was a single trans gender student in the program?? The nursing student in her photo does not look any different than a whole heckuva lot of nursing students. If the complainer is a nursing student, they are the one who needs to bounce on their bum out the door, because their behavior toward a human being is contrary to any nursing ethics I am aware of. Will the complainer get to opt out of patients they are assigned because the patient is trans??

[Guest LizMarie]

Pushing a trans person out of a restroom because they might commit a crime is presuming guilt before innocence, in addition to all the other explanations I've given for such trashy, bigoted nonsense.

Please note that almost always, legal challenges to these sorts of acts of bigotry are resulting in these institutions backing down.

[Guest Mia J]

Good point Vicky. First the person who complained need to learn to be more understanding about people and will probably never make a good nurse. How dare they make her use the restroom in a maintenance closet.

They really still have LPNs?

Mia

[Guest KimberlyF]

A lot of life is about eliminating risk.

I don't go into bad neighborhoods at nighttime if I can avoid them. It doesn't mean that if I were attacked it would in any way be my fault. It just means I'd rather not be attacked or robbed or whatever than to have it happen and live w/the knowledge that I did nothing wrong. Shallow victory.

Some things that Alex could have maybe done to help prevent this or forced the school to stand w/her would be a legal name change and something in writing or an email that the school was aware prior to starting that Alex was trans and how they would deal with it.

[Guest Jenn348]

I have to wonder how they knew she was trans, honestly. Sure, we can look at her pic and tell, but meeting her in person and not knowing, you couldn't know for sure. Plus, the one trans person I've met who I know is trans is prettier than some of the other women I know....

She looks passable, the video shows a passable voice, etc...

Did she out herself to them? Did she not do any legal changes before applying to the school (after years of HRT)? Background check, did the school find out that way?

Even if the school admin knew, why would some student know and complain? If the admin knew and leaked it into the student body, they may have broken laws. If I were them, I'd be hiring a lawyer and a damned good one.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I have to wonder how they knew she was trans, honestly. Sure, we can look at her pic and tell, but meeting her in person and not knowing, you couldn't know for sure. Plus, the one trans person I've met who I know is trans is prettier than some of the other women I know....

She looks passable, the video shows a passable voice, etc...

Did she out herself to them? Did she not do any legal changes before applying to the school (after years of HRT)? Background check, did the school find out that way?

Even if the school admin knew, why would some student know and complain? If the admin knew and leaked it into the student body, they may have broken laws. If I were them, I'd be hiring a lawyer and a damned good one.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/11/1222763/-Being-a-student-while-transgender

"Wilson intends to undergo reassignment surgery once she can afford it. She also intends to have her name changed."

She's still using her birth name, Alex. She's prob taller than average. She appears to have broad shoulders. It wouldn't take a whole heck of imagination on my part to figure it out.

[Drea]

She appears to have broad shoulders. It wouldn't take a whole heck of imagination on my part to figure it out.

All that increased awareness that the community has pushed...people are becoming trans aware.

[Guest Kontessa]

Yikes!!! What is going on there? You would think that a school that teaches nursing would be more caring & understanding!!! I wonder what type of bedside manners do they teach there? If I were a hospital administrator, I would have to think twice about hiring anyone from there! What else they might be bigoted about? huh!

BEST WISHES and HUGS to all my sisters and brothers out there!!! We are all in this together!!!

Kontessa

[Guest LizMarie]

Last year a cisgender female in Maryland with broad shoulders was denied access to a female restroom. It's bigotry, based solely on appearance. There is no excuse for this, "trans aware" or not. And the argument that the other women's feelings should be taken into account is the exact same argument used by segregationists in the 1950s against black women in the deep south - that they "frightened" the white women, that black women were "too masculine", etc.

I wonder if some people realize how they sound when pushing those arguments? Or maybe people pushing bigoted agendas simply don't care?

[Guest KimberlyF]

Last year a cisgender female in Maryland with broad shoulders was denied access to a female restroom.

When and where did this happen? Was this woman physically prevented from using the bathroom? Who stopped her? Someone using the facility or someone working there? Was it a private or public facility? Is there a law on the books currently in Maryland that allows these bathroom checks?

[Drea]

With the growth and increased expression of the attitude that the feelings of women don't matter expressed by MTF when not requesting reasonable accommodation for their medical condition, but demanding access even when it may be a choice of presentation regardless of medical need, it isn't surprising that a concurrent blacklash has resulted. That lack of concern about the feelings of other women not just creates a negative social dynamic, but it so deeply undercuts the MTF's claims of being women.

In my view this sort of an attitude is a shot in the eye to all those who have transitioned in the past, who have gained acceptance of the women around them, of their female co-workers thru respect, created positive views of trans women and got that access that is so much demanded by some now but thru that respect and acceptance in return. So I am un-impressed by the actions of a minority of trans folks who take such actions creating negative feelings towards trans and then claim they are standing up to make things better.

From what I am seeing, while there been some progress with documentation changes and insurance coverage, on the social end it seems like a negative direction. It only takes one MTF showing no respect for women's feelings to undercut the more positive work done by dozens.

I was very heartened to see in another thread that there are many MTF that do think as part of the restroom issue that the feelings of other women need to be respected.

Had the quite modest and reasonable protections I suggested be in place, the person would likely not have been barred and such reasonable protections are things that could be understood and accepted.

At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. Those MTF who understand women's feelings in such matters, generally earn respect, acceptance and have far less loss than those who act entitled and demand who tend to have lots more losses. Just my observation

[Carolyn Marie]

Laws are often written with the best of intentions, but are flawed nonetheless. Sometimes they are written too broadly, sometimes they are ambiguous, and sometimes they are put together like a jigsaw puzzle with 1/3 of the pieces missing. Even laws purporting to give TG folks rights should be carefully thought out, but often are not. That is the problem with the new student's rights law just passed in California. In my view, it is seriously flawed, and for the reason that it doesn't provide privacy protections for locker rooms and showers.

The world is rarely black and white, and rights are almost never absolute. Nuances are tougher to deal with, but if we don't look at the nuances, we make errors that hurt people. Take the time to do things right, and you won't have to come back later and do them over.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Jenn348]

Here's a couple links to ciswomen getting kicked out of women's rooms.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=6189330

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/ejection-of-a-woman-from-a-womens-room-prompts-lawsuit/

One of them was represented by Gloria Allred. Whenever I see her, I can't help but think of Rat Race LOL

[Guest KimberlyF]

Here's a couple links to ciswomen getting kicked out of women's rooms.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=6189330

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/ejection-of-a-woman-from-a-womens-room-prompts-lawsuit/

One of them was represented by Gloria Allred. Whenever I see her, I can't help but think of Rat Race LOL

Two stories from tolerant NY and California. Shocking!

This has been a point that has been made with increased visibility comes increased scrutiny. It's easier to spot someone trans in a group of trans. People's senses were heightened in the one case after the LGBT event.

At least one of the two is a confirmed butch lesbian, which would make her TG according to some lists of who's under the umbrella, and she was coincidentally defended by a TG legal group and part of the settlement was the waitstaff wear gender neutral clothing and undergo TG sensitivity.

[Guest LizMarie]

So a butch lesbian should go to the men's room? I'm trying to understand the implications here.

If one single person complains (as in the original story), it automatically becomes the fault of the transgender person? Help me out here, since this hasn't been spelled this out in black and white anywhere and I don't want to make assumptions or put words in anyone's mouths. ONE SINGLE PERSON COMPLAINED therefore the transgender woman is at fault?

My position is that this simply further demonstrates the irrationality of these sorts of rules and laws, as well as the inherent bigotry. I will further state that anyone who argues that we, as transgender individuals, have an obligation to appease bigots then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Guest KimberlyF]

My points have always been simple. TG has almost become meaningless as a legal word because it means something else to so many different people and organizations.

So the butch lesbian who IDs as female can possibly use the male or female bathrooms legally in some places where gender and sexual orientation are defined the same or where anyone who's gender expression-not identity but expression-makes them TG enough to legally use the bathroom. Once laws are not defined they become meaningless.

Are there any cases involving police officials where someone was born female on the BC and is still legally female and the police arrested or threatened the non-trans woman for using a woman's bathroom?

People are often afraid of what they don't understand. It's part of why there are so many who take so long to accept themselves here. But anyone who does not directly deal with this issue better figure it out like yesterday or they are inherently bigots.

As for the single complaint, that is how laws work. Lets go with a hypothetical. IF a single person complains about Alex in the bathroom,and the school does nothing while a state law says its illegal, and then she turns around and attacks someone in the bathroom, how much do you think that would cost the school? I'd be willing to bet this whole event was the last thing the school wanted. They can not win here.

Anyone who thinks these decisions are limited to TGs all over this country is fooling themselves. I deal with kids & parents of kids w/special needs every week. There are talks of issues w/insurance and lack of access to facilities and getting treated poorly by society. Being used as punchlines and insults and the medical industry not always being respectful. I get emails telling me to demand my politicians act!

I know a 7 yo who's insurance won't pay for his therapy for his one eye because his other eye is good. So the parents can either pay $300/week out of pocket or watch their child lose sight in one eye. They have decided to pay the 15K per year out of pocket for at least two years.

As much as I see 'retard' used a few times a week and more often than not the offenders aren't called to task for it, this community doesn't call society haters or evil or out to get them. They are tremendously grateful for everyone who volenteers their time to help with things like the Special Olympics.

And people who aren't like my son are called neuro normal or neuro typical even though people with his position naturally occur at somewhere like 1 in 88 people.

The parallels are there for me. And that is just one group asking for their slice. I'm sure everyone with cancer thinks there isn't enough being done and can tell horror stories.

Being around these children has been a priceless experience that I never expected. They have more hope and courage than I could ever dream of having. They have given me a gift that I could never repay. Perspective. I know of a girl on the US Paralympic ski team. She has no legs and one arm. Her parents never told her what she couldn't do or how she needed special treatment.

We can all choose if we want to look at things in a positive light or a negative light. The same exact things are going to happen either way. Which way do people here think has been proven to be healthier?

I have a hard time believing that I'm important enough to have the whole world out to get me. And I have many accepting friends who are each amazing in their own way.

This is the world we live in and you can either try to live and enjoy your life or not. The earth will continue to revolve around the sun.

Up topic, I suggested a few things someone in a situation like Alex could have done-legal name change and getting pre-approval from the school if possible. If my child were born without legs and with one arm, I hope I could push her to be her best instead of feeling sorry for herself.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

The child Coy I think makes this argument clearer.

An innocent child who realizes who she is and is labeled transgendered by adults and told she cannot use the girls bathroom because she is not biologically female? A travesty....

I am glad to see that in her case the decision was reconsidered and reversed.

Coy is innocently being herself without the constraints of adulthood.

I have heard a lot of discussion regarding transgender and bathrooms (even cis gendered concerns?).

This compells me to consider the dynamics of this issue. I look at those who clearly do not present themselves as their biological gender. Would it actually be better for them to use their biological gender bathrooms? I think not. I know that the restroom can be a veryvulnerable place and those who do not present as the expected gender can be brutilized.

I think this dynamic of representation of gender and biological gender when selecting a restroom should be more carefully considered and is clearly a sociological question not a transgendered question to be solved..

It is my expectation that society will evolve so that restroom usage will include not simply biological gender, but transgender as well.

Make no mistake, this will not include those who still present as their biological gender, but "feel" differently. The expected trend will be for those that clearly present as their true gender in every way. This means that crossdressers who still exhibit many of the characteristics of their biological gender are the most vulnerable.

Simply consider this concern... An MTF or crossdresser decides to use the mens room for whatever reason, but a bunch of thugs decide it is NOK to use their bathroom. But what if the same MTF decided to use the womens bathroom, but a bunch of thugs decided she was not welcome. I hope you see the dilemma.

I think the laws will evolve torwards passability. I am not happy about this, but knowing human nature, I think this inevitable.

Brenda

[Guest Jenni_S]

Wonderfully said, Kim!