This Kinda Made Me Mad

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I was reading a post by TBForLife and he mentioned a man that got breast implants. I was like "HUH?", so I Googled it. Sure enough, I found a clip from the Man Show and this little news thingy: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_95989.html

The dude got breast implants on a bet! WHAT?!!!!

Let me get this straight. I want my breasts off and this necessitates like $1000 in counseling and a letter saying I'm not crazy. Then some dude, who is male identified and biologically male wants implants BECAUSE OF A BET. He can just...get them.

So, this guy with implants gets to be on mainstream television and everyone thinks it is a funny joke. Is there anyone else that is just annoyed as all get out by this? I don't think this guy is doing anything to normalize body modifications like that. In fact, his reasons for doing it might even serve to make TS surgeries seem more "funny". Seriously. What is up with this?

Discuss! ...or be disgusted.

[Guest Zabrak]

Haven't had my coffee yet so my answers going to be small. I read that before and never thought of this... but putting it this way, yeah it makes me mad.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Yeah, that's how I was at first too. The first time I read about it I thought it was funny. It wasn't until after my chest surgery that it made me mad. Now I feel like it makes us look cheap, like a joke. If I were MTF, I'd be even more angry.

[Guest leo]

ye its like practically p**sing on us.

it really takes the mik

[Guest MrAwesome]

Well, depending on how much money I'd get, why not? xD I'd just wear a compression shirt, and make sure I had good insurance. and then hopefully the compression shirt would bust them, and they'd get removed, with no loss to anyone but the insurance company .

[Guest Sergei]

I just don't understand how any doctor would agree to do such a thing. It completely unethical! It does anger me that we all have to go through phsycological examinations to prove we are not crazy, and yet this person who clearly is seems to have been able to do something like this for completely the wrong reasons. I agree, it's disgusting!!

[Guest TBForLife]

I say hey who gives a **** let the guy do what he likes, I honestly have no realistic idea of gender as an actual thing, I cross dress and live as a man and I'm born female.

I'm into hardcore body mods myself and most of the things I do to my body are in the realm of making what I like, not with any set gender in mind now that I'm happier on T.

I just want my body to be a great thing to live in regardless of gender traits.

It's just a body, you only have one, do what you like with it. If this guy wanted to prove a point and make a bet on it then hey whatever.

He most likely has no idea about trans people and means no harm.

[Sally]

It has long been said that some people will do anything for money and I guess it's true. Including the Doctor!

Leaves room shaikng her head,

Sally

[Guest Little Sara]

I just don't understand how any doctor would agree to do such a thing. It completely unethical! It does anger me that we all have to go through phsycological examinations to prove we are not crazy, and yet this person who clearly is seems to have been able to do something like this for completely the wrong reasons. I agree, it's disgusting!!

I don't think there should be any doctor meeting of any kind to get breast augmentation. Cissexual women get them on demand? Transsexual women should too. SRS is another bag of beans, but BA is not permanent in the same way (it is reversible).

I don't mind that he does it, and I think we should have less stringent criteria for getting surgery, FtM or MtF. 1 letter should be plenty.

[Guest Evan_J]

The thing is -and this is what I get out it like many things - things considered "part of being" or "relative to" female/ness are not "guarded" as a are things relative to maleness because to be (or become) female ultimately is viewed as less in status/importance/societally endowed "powers". Its like not caring if someone wants to go to the school where there are knife fights and drugs and 90% of all people enrolled there end up on welfare as opposed to "guarding entry" and making the reguirement stringent for the Ivy League school that 20 U.S. presidents attended or something; its that you don't want just "anybody" to have the possibility of what that second choice might afford. So it is with maleness. For that reason you can get estrogen far easier than testosterone as well as well as implants as opposed to the DI. Quiet as its kept one is seen as "going up" the invisible ladder the other as "going down".

The thing that makes me peed across the board is the that it easy becomes a statement of "see, it doesn't matter what parts a person adds, they still are what they were born as, "just like I am". "

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Circus freek. I originally thought this was the story about the guy in Las Vegas that did that on a bet - and was on one of the poker shows later- showing his clevage I guess as a distraction (he was eliminated). My thinking? A freak possibly - but could be a bluff as he really wants breasts, but refuses to acknowledge that. But then people also tattoo their faces.

I agree with all the responses - makes me angry! It's a stupid trick - should never been allowed to have the surgery - not at ALL good for the transgender community as it make every desire we have seem ... I don't know... sleezy? cheap? also a stupid joke?

Unfair at best, and the media is sucking it up like it was the biggest news on the planet - a fricking joke joke joke! Lowest common demoninator rule applies here - what ever sells Toyotas! Duh - America loses more and more collective IQ every televison season.

Lizzy

[Guest Little Sara]

The thing is -and this is what I get out it like many things - things considered "part of being" or "relative to" female/ness are not "guarded" as a are things relative to maleness because to be (or become) female ultimately is viewed as less in status/importance/societally endowed "powers".

You'd be surprised. Many want to "save us from ourselves", because you have to be clearly insane to want to lose social status (go from male to female).

Then there's some radical feminists, who will say something to the effect of "Being a woman is this horrible thing that no one ever ever likes (because its so oppressive it makes black slavery seem like peanuts), so if a man wants it, he clearly has other motives, like the destruction of womanhood, spying purposes, or pure insanity."

[Guest Ashlee]

I don't think there should be any doctor meeting of any kind to get breast augmentation. Cissexual women get them on demand? Transsexual women should too. SRS is another bag of beans, but BA is not permanent in the same way (it is reversible).

I don't mind that he does it, and I think we should have less stringent criteria for getting surgery, FtM or MtF. 1 letter should be plenty.

I have to agree with you here. Cissexual women do get them on demand - if they have the $$, there is a doctor out there waiting to take it. And no waiting period or therapy that I know of either. So, if any of us just walked into a plastic surgeon with a handful of $$, and didn't say anything about being MtF or TS or whatever, I don't think too many of them would refuse to do the procedure.

You'd be surprised. Many want to "save us from ourselves", because you have to be clearly insane to want to lose social status (go from male to female).

Then there's some radical feminists, who will say something to the effect of "Being a woman is this horrible thing that no one ever ever likes (because its so oppressive it makes black slavery seem like peanuts), so if a man wants it, he clearly has other motives, like the destruction of womanhood, spying purposes, or pure insanity."

...or he just "gets off on it"... Thats the one that just irks me...

[Guest Cullen]

I have to say that many of you definitely have validity in what you've said. It does make it appear that what we are doing is nothing but a joke, not to be taken seriously. Yes, it is his body to do what he pleases. What was said and stood out the most for me is the whole male/female thing. It's true and will always be true in so many countries, not just in America. Women are not viewed as equals by men and are commonly looked upon as mere servants or just vehicles for procreation.

So for him to be able to get away with this, is not much of a suprise to me. It demeans women, which is why this show picked him up so quick, but also shows that we are in a place in time where nothing is sacred. With the right connections and enough money, anyone can acquire just about anything.

As far as we are concerned, we are the many that thrive for perfection within ourselves by just completing ourselves, not by adding or taking away. Our journey is not to improve or to evolve, but to finish the journey that wasn't completed in the womb.

[Guest TBForLife]

Hey Men get away with wearing skirts on dares, women wear pants every day

I think it would be just so much easier if the gender lines were erradicated and we could just all live freely as we please without anyone judging.

Don't judge, and don't get mad, he didn't do it with any ill intent and hes having fun living his life so who are any of us to say anything against him.

Sure there should be less strict guidelines on surgery.

I'm getting body mods and implants that are FOREVER at a tattoo parlor and all I have to sign is a waiver!!!

This guy is implanting screws in my head and ridges on my collar bone.

How would being able to fit in by having breast implants as a mtf or a reduction as ftm. If anything doctors should be throwing chest surgery at large chested ftms to help them fit in.

I don't know whats wrong with this world but I know I'm not going to "fit in" or be "normal" once I pay a couple hundred for my surgical implants.

And no one is daring me to get them!

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Hey Men get away with wearing skirts on dares, women wear pants every day

I think it would be just so much easier if the gender lines were erradicated and we could just all live freely as we please without anyone judging.

Don't judge, and don't get mad, he didn't do it with any ill intent and hes having fun living his life so who are any of us to say anything against him.

Sure there should be less strict guidelines on surgery.

I'm getting body mods and implants that are FOREVER at a tattoo parlor and all I have to sign is a waiver!!!

This guy is implanting screws in my head and ridges on my collar bone.

How would being able to fit in by having breast implants as a mtf or a reduction as ftm. If anything doctors should be throwing chest surgery at large chested ftms to help them fit in.

I don't know whats wrong with this world but I know I'm not going to "fit in" or be "normal" once I pay a couple hundred for my surgical implants.

And no one is daring me to get them!

I generally agree with most stuff you are saying, in this post and in your previous one. The part I don't agree with is the part about "it doesn't hurt anyone". Things like tattoos and piercings are well-established types of body modification and don't generally require the service of a medical professional. Chest surgery, on the other hand, is a little more extreme and requires a doctor with a very specific skill set. I think that, if surgeries start becoming jokes that people take lightly, doctors might be less likely to be willing to work with TS individuals. If doing breast implants for a natal male in one case makes you a laughing-stock, then you'd be less likely to do it in other cases. It's wrong to make generalizations, but that's what people do. When medical procedures become practical jokes, those of us that fall outside of the "conventional" categories should worry. So, this joker gets implants as a joke and causes the surgeon to feel like he's not being taken seriously as a professional. Next week a transwoman visits that same surgeon and appears to be asking for the exact same thing. Even though WE see that there is a difference, not everyone will.

The fact is, even though we are responsible for our own actions and no one SHOULD care what we do, it doesn't work that way. It's a rare situation where one person's actions affect only themselves.

As much as anyone, I'd love to throw out all the established gender norms. I think a rigid binary hurts everyone and makes people feel compelled to fit themselves into boxes that hardly anyone fits neatly in to. However, large scale change doesn't come about quickly. It has to be gradual. If people try to force change at too rapid a pace, there is almost always going to be a strong reaction to it. Things are getting better all the time. Fifty years ago, it was considered a mental illness to be homosexual. Now it's almost considered a joke to say that. Things are getting better for transgendered people too. The fact that there are websites with info and organizations that advocate for us is AWESOME. TS people haven't always had those things.

Yeah. Getting implants as a joke pretty much burns my rear. I'm sorry. The first time I heard about it, I thought it was funny. When I really started thinking about it (and watched the clip from The Man Show), I didn't think it was funny at all.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I don't know whats wrong with this world but I know I'm not going to "fit in" or be "normal" once I pay a couple hundred for my surgical implants.

And no one is daring me to get them!

I think the key difference here is that there aren't people hurting for and spending their lives wishing for those surgical implants and not being able to get access to them. You getting those implants isn't likely to cause it to be more difficult for others who want them to be able to get them.

Part of the reason T is harder to get than estrogen is because people have abused it. Once someone abuses things, it ruins it for everyone else. A couple of years ago I used to be able to make copies and get paper for my office any time I wanted. I never made more copies or took more paper than I needed. Most people were respectful. Then there were about 5 or 6 people who abused both the department copier and the fact that we had free access to paper and office supplies. The end result? Now I have to fill out like 3 different forms when I want paper.

I don't like seeing surgeries used as a joke. One person or two people can screw up things for a lot of people.

[Guest Zabrak]

I totally agree with Stranded on this topic. He knows his stuff.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Sir Zabrak, I appreciate your vote of confidence. I am a professional nerd. It's literally my job.

Evan, what you said about the gateway to "maleness" being more closely guarded than "femaleness" is right on and it got me thinking. I remember a while back hearing about this study:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...1847194,00.html

This first link is the coverage from Time magazine.

For those of you on college campuses, here's the link to the actual article:

http://www.bepress.com/bejeap/vol8/iss1/art39/

The major finding of the study is that FTM's tend to earn more after transitioning, which seems to indicate that they have started to benefit from "male privilege". On the other hand, MTF's tend to make less after transitioning. In fact, the income loss for MTF's looks RIDICULOUS. I can speculate on lots of reason why the loss for them is worse, but I'll spare everyone. That would probably require a new thread.

Anyway, even though it shouldn't be this way, there is still subtle sexism pretty much everywhere. As a female bodied person in science, I was much less likely to be introduced to important people or to be invited to work on projects and papers than my cisgendered male peers. This was independent of ability differences because my male friends all respect me and my work. It's just when people made snap judgments that I felt most discriminated against. Even now, although I very early in my transition, I can see where I'm included in things more and am more likely to be allowed to finish a sentence.

Have you guys (and gals) ever heard of Ben Barres? Check him out. He's cool and also is a FTM. We should start a gender and discrimination thread and talk about that stuff too.

That was a long digression. I guess my main point was... Yes, Evan, I think maleness is more guarded. People always want to say that FTM's are transitioning for the male privilege and that MTF's need to be saved from themselves. It's lame, sir. Most lame...

[Guest Little Sara]

So, this joker gets implants as a joke and causes the surgeon to feel like he's not being taken seriously as a professional. Next week a transwoman visits that same surgeon and appears to be asking for the exact same thing. Even though WE see that there is a difference, not everyone will.

The solution to this is making breast-related surgeries on-demand. Then whatever a bozo wants, a bozo gets, and it doesn't affect people who feel they need it, cause the surgeon won't care who asks for it. He makes money either way.

When a man gets "gynecomastia", they don't make him sign all kinds of papers or evaluate his mental health to remove his breasts.

[Guest Evan_J]

.....That was a long digression. I guess my main point was... Yes, Evan, I think maleness is more guarded. People always want to say that FTM's are transitioning for the male privilege and that MTF's need to be saved from themselves. It's lame, sir. Most lame...

The examples that get me (possibly different study I read) were one in which a certain attorney was hired "as a perceived woman" and during the length of employment was criticized for performance and particularly criticized by one of the partners as "inept" and "incompetant" and was ultimately fired. THE SAME ATTORNEY unknown to the firm, reapplied as man post-transitioning and was praised and held out as an example of "exemplary performance and competancy" and received direct, positive, accolades from that same partner who even "shared" that previously there had been a woman in that position who was in no way as outstanding as "he".

In another instance a university instructor did the same thing; received endless criticism particularly from another "well regarded" staff member, had a proposed body of work rejected by the department as "substandard" and "not contributory to the body of knowledge" they were often disparaged and ultimately also relieved of their position. This person also was "unknowingly" to those colleges hired post-transition and was hailed as being an outstanding teacher, the same body of work was published by the department and became part of the course text, and the co-worker was quoted as saying ..."Not like that other instructer who was here, she didn't know what she was talking about".

[Sally]

The examples that get me (possibly different study I read) were one in which a certain attorney was hired "as a perceived woman" and during the length of employment was criticized for performance and particularly criticized by one of the partners as "inept" and "incompetant" and was ultimately fired. THE SAME ATTORNEY unknown to the firm, reapplied as man post-transitioning and was praised and held out as an example of "exemplary performance and competancy" and received direct, positive, accolades from that same partner who even "shared" that previously there had been a woman in that position who was in no way as outstanding as "he".

In another instance a university instructor did the same thing; received endless criticism particularly from another "well regarded" staff member, had a proposed body of work rejected by the department as "substandard" and "not contributory to the body of knowledge" they were often disparaged and ultimately also relieved of their position. This person also was "unknowingly" to those colleges hired post-transition and was hailed as being an outstanding teacher, the same body of work was published by the department and became part of the course text, and the co-worker was quoted as saying ..."Not like that other instructer who was here, she didn't know what she was talking about".

My therapist pointed these things out to me, she wanted to be sure that I was aware of the 'male perks' that I would be giving up , I told her that I hadn't noticed them because I was in so much inner torment that I probably didn't receive very many of them anyway. I will gladly trade them for my peace of mind.

Love ya all and I hope you guys remember us girls when you get those higher paying jobs, we'll appreciate a dinner every now and then.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

When a man gets "gynecomastia", they don't make him sign all kinds of papers or evaluate his mental health to remove his breasts.

Totally. That's what I had. Gynecomastia. It was a really bad case. Now it's all better.

Truth be told, I'm pretty sure it is the treat of law suits that drives all this gatekeeping.

Evan, I think that second case you talk about is referring to Ben Barres. The thing is that he is AWESOME because he's at Stanford. Seriously. Anyway, I don't know if you all remember a while back when the president of Harvard University made some not so smart statements about gender differences in ability. This: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/...ll/442133a.html

came out after that.

It's an interesting and thought provoking read, for sure.

With regard to gender discrimination, there have been scads of studies where people regard work by women as being of lower quality. It's been shown that women are less likely to get papers published (because one study submitted two identical papers and changed only the name). Also, women have to do more work to get grants and to be thought of as "competent".

In general, men are assumed to be competent until they prove themselves otherwise. Women are considered incompetent until they prove themselves otherwise. The thing is that there is some asymmetry here, man has to do a lot more to prove himself incompetent than a woman has to do to make people think she's incompetent. It's bias. It's sexism. ...and it's ugly wherever it shows up.

[Guest Cody_T]

I knew I'd regret not applying to Stanford

also, you have to have an account for that one. But I found it free here http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~menzel/nature.pdf

[Guest Little Sara]

Totally. That's what I had. Gynecomastia. It was a really bad case. Now it's all better.

Truth be told, I'm pretty sure it is the treat of law suits that drives all this gatekeeping.

If it was lawsuit, they'd fear one from the man with gynecomastia just as much from the FTM. This doesn't make sense to me.

To me the reason is squeamishness with the idea that someone wants to "change sex" (outwardly if anything). This squeamishness is shared by doctors, shrinks, the government, society in general, etc. People assume that sex is immutable, so when someone basically asks to change their endocrine system completely the other way, they think YOU are wrong, and not the "immutable sex" theory. It's apparently easier to defend their worldview against contrary evidence (such as us), than to allow their worldview to consider new evidence. Hence its bad science (good science considers new evidence).