Gov. Christie Vetoes NJ Birth Certificate Legislation

[Carolyn Marie]

http://www.metroweekly.com/poliglot/2014/01/chris-christies-veto-of-transgender-rights-bill-en.html

Carolyn Marie

[VickySGV]

He is one of the best politicians money can buy!! But is has to come in through the right hand window of the car!!

I have read other news where he is under some ethics and campaign financing investigation as well. What an american hero.

[Guest Brenda Hailey]

Misery loves company, if Chris can never be happy with the way he really is, nobody else can either.

[Charlize]

I hate him. What a rat. I'm a jersey girl and it makes it worse.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Guest CassieX]

Ugh! What a dumb donkey! The regulations for doing this are already a federal process through the state department so his whole argument in the article makes no sense. Considering all the things that you have to do to re-establish your identity after changing your name and amending your gender I hardly think that criminals will be flocking to do it.

Cassie

[Guest Jenni_S]

The regulations for doing this are already a federal process through the state department so his whole argument in the article makes no sense.

No, those are passports. Birth certificates are issued by the state where the birth happened.

[Guest CassieX]

Umm, okies. I guess I'd better send mine back then

But seriously, the state department does issue them but only if you were born overseas. They wrote the regulations for this that many states are ever so slowly starting to adopt. This is a case where Federal government set the gold standard.

[Guest Jenni_S]

But seriously, the state department does issue them but only if you were born overseas. They wrote the regulations for this that many states are ever so slowly starting to adopt.

Yes, if you're born out of the country. Since this is about state-issued birth certificates, I assumed we were talking about those. As you said, it's up to the state what their own regulations are. They may adopt these state department rules, or their own, it's up to the state and their process.

[Guest Mia J]

Why am I not surprised. This man is a bully and he uses abuse to further his cause.

Mia

[Charlize]

I must admit being extremely disappointed in the legislature as well as the Gov. Part of the problem may be that there has been no protest from the GLBT community. The marriage issue found universal support but this issue, affecting only the trans community, isn't noticed. As much as i scream i'm sure it won't be heard.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Drea]

NJ does alter birth certificates with SRS already.

What is the point of even having gender marker on birth certificate anyway if it doesn't represent a person's anatomy anyway, maybe it should just be dropped completely?

Of all documents, I find the BC to be irrelevant these days. Get other ID changed. NJ does recognize one based on what they put on their state ID.

[Guest LizMarie]

So, Drea, is your argument that you are only "woman enough" if you have GCS?

If that's not what you are saying, then what are you saying?

[Guest]

I watched a CNN special on the waiting room TV monitor at EEOC.This dirty dealer and all his crooked politics. He is trying to live down BridgeGate and fixing elections, then cried out what a good christian he is. It was a total tap dance. The most disturbing thing is we wants to be the next GOP presidential candidate. Now that's really sick and dangerous. If I could paint his motorcade vehicle It would be lettered "Spirit of George Wallace." George was only looking out for the welfare of his people too. All so sad.

[Drea]

So, Drea, is your argument that you are only "woman enough" if you have GCS?

If that's not what you are saying, then what are you saying?

I am saying they can just do away with it. And that of all documents that one could change or not, fortunately the birth certificate is by far the least important.

Really would a F on a birth certificate enable someone in a ladies locker room expose their male genitalia cause it really is just a "big clit"? I am pretty sure an F on any id isn't going to solve that.

There is a point where anatomy does become relevant.

I personally am not losing any sleep over a birth certificate.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Is the BC required often in NJ? We can use a passport here anywhere the BC is used. I don't know where my BC is and I get yearly fed/state gov clearances.

[Guest CassieX]

Well, considering that your birth certificate is a primary proof of citizenship and a primary requirement for many other more commonly used legal documents (such as a passport), then yes, it is.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/news/new-u-s--passport-requirement0.html

As the above link states, it's also a primary documentary requirement to get a passport. If you have to go the secondary route, it gets more complicated.

When I put in the paperwork to get my new birth certificate from the state department, I was told by the vital records office there that I should wait until I received it before applying for a new passport, as although the rules have changed, it goes a lot smoother if you wait. I took their advice.

Is the BC required often in NJ? We can use a passport here anywhere the BC is used. I don't know where my BC is and I get yearly fed/state gov clearances.

I would think that at some point in your life the fed/state government verified who you were so it is in the Joint Personnel Adjudication System (JPAS). I know when I changed my name/gender marker it was simply a matter of informing the relevant people at work to update the system.

So, Drea, is your argument that you are only "woman enough" if you have GCS?

If that's not what you are saying, then what are you saying?

I am saying they can just do away with it. And that of all documents that one could change or not, fortunately the birth certificate is by far the least important.

Really would a F on a birth certificate enable someone in a ladies locker room expose their male genitalia cause it really is just a "big clit"? I am pretty sure an F on any id isn't going to solve that.

There is a point where anatomy does become relevant.

I personally am not losing any sleep over a birth certificate.

I would have to disagree and say that having your appropriate gender on your birth certificate is of vital importance. Without it I could have not have changed a lot of my records and receive medically appropriate care from my providers. It also helped me integrate back into society as Cassie without having to constantly prove who I was if my documentation/ID's did not match. That being said, I would not inappropriately expose myself in a public space/changing room. One would think common sense would prevail in these matters just as it does for people who have other medical conditions or special needs.

Cassie

[Charlize]

Believe it or not all of our other id's do revolve around the birth certificate. I am amazed by the ladies room argument that men will " change gender" to enter the ladies room and cause problems if surgery is required. Perhaps that may happen but i would think it rare at best (or is it worse). There are always some bad actors in the world but that is no reason to punish others who cannot afford or have surgery for medical reasons.

I'm certainly not posting this to start any arguments. i am merely a bit annoyed that the Gov. of my state……..((removed by word filter)

Hugs,

Charlie

[Drea]

Do peoples somehow believe getting gender marker on the birth certificate somehow erases the past? Cause that is what it really seems like to me.

Especially in this day and age when so much is so readily available via computer and that isn't even counting the grey market data.

Well, considering that your birth certificate is a primary proof of citizenship and a primary requirement for many other more commonly used legal documents (such as a passport), then yes, it is.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/news/new-u-s--passport-requirement0.html

As the above link states, it's also a primary documentary requirement to get a passport. If you have to go the secondary route, it gets more complicated.

When I put in the paperwork to get my new birth certificate from the state department, I was told by the vital records office there that I should wait

Nothing there prevents use of birth certificate. Sure it makes it easier for them, less work to process. It is quite typical however for birth certificate names to not match current names and thus they supply the modifying document such as name change paper, marriage certificate, etc.

Oh and don't forget question 9 on passport application "List all other names you have used" so if you have changed first name, middle, you still have to list it so the unless someone's full name is completely gender neutral it isn't like one is going to escape outing oneself.

I see it as a tiny mole hill, that in the bigger scope of things is pretty insignificant. Not the mountain it is made out to be.

I wonder how much this becomes just a matter of validation as it isn't something that most of the longer time transitioned folks I know particularly worry about.

[Guest CassieX]

Do peoples somehow believe getting gender marker on the birth certificate somehow erases the past? Cause that is what it really seems like to me.

Especially in this day and age when so much is so readily available via computer and that isn't even counting the grey market data.

Not at all, but getting a birth certificate to say your correct name and gender certainly makes as I previously stated it easier to get appropriate medical care and other legal processes accomplished.

Oh and don't forget question 9 on passport application "List all other names you have used" so if you have changed first name, middle, you still have to list it so the unless someone's full name is completely gender neutral it isn't like one is going to escape outing oneself.

I see it as a tiny mole hill, that in the bigger scope of things is pretty insignificant. Not the mountain it is made out to be.

I wonder how much this becomes just a matter of validation as it isn't something that most of the longer time transitioned folks I know particularly worry about.

The state department made it very easy for transgender applicants to get a passport, they have specific instructions regarding the process so its more of a case of getting things done easier.

I don't really understand the whole 'outing yourself concept'. I'm more concerned about getting things done the correct way and want to be able to get paperwork done just as easily as everybody else without having to explain myself constantly. Personally, I'm proud of who I am and could not care less if people know about my past. I served 20 years in the Navy and have many great memories and friends from that time so why would I want to erase that part of my life? So it follows that I really don't get the validation part of your comment either.

Cassie

[Guest April Kristie]

There is a good chance this beatch will run for president, let's hope this mentality does not get there or we could have new issues to deal with.

[Drea]

Thank you Cassie for taking the time to comment and helping illustrate.

I'm more concerned about getting things done the correct way and want to be able to get paperwork done just as easily as everybody else without having to explain myself constantly.

There is a perception that there is a "correct way" when in fact all ways are correct and it is quite common to have additional documents providing the traceability from a birth certificate that doesn't match current information.

I also don't get this having to explain oneself constantly. I haven't had to use my birth certificate for anything since before the turn of the century. And I didn't even have a photo driver's license till 2005 (I kind of hate to see that go actually *sigh*).

It is true I am not undergoing a gender role transition and it is quite understandable during that period one has to deal with document changes and it all makes it seem like a constant thing. So it is know of mix nox that. Getting a marker changed on one document isn't going to make the transitional changes go away. You trade one step in one place by adding the step in another.

Personally, I'm proud of who I am and could not care less if people know about my past. I served 20 years in the Navy and have many great memories and friends from that time so why would I want to erase that part of my life? So it follows that I really don't get the validation part of your comment either.

The validation part isn't related to the erasing the past at all, and obviously you aren't that sort of person. The statement about validation is based there being an emotional attachment to getting it done, seeing the coorect marker on the document and that the emotional attachment is the real motivator rather than the real practical value.

If I were to look at it strictly in a cost/benefit fashion, I just can't see any benefit to offset the cost and hassle.

[Guest CassieX]

There is a perception that there is a "correct way" when in fact all ways are correct and it is quite common to have additional documents providing the traceability from a birth certificate that doesn't match current information.

I also don't get this having to explain oneself constantly. I haven't had to use my birth certificate for anything since before the turn of the century. And I didn't even have a photo driver's license till 2005 (I kind of hate to see that go actually *sigh*).

This is something that I actually agree with you on Drea , there is most definitely more than one way to do things since regulations differ widely from state to state. My "correct way" would not necessarily work for the next person but some of the paper trail I followed it would. Getting my birth certificate fixed was nice from an emotional perspective, sort of the cherry on the top of the cake but it was more of a useful tool to enable me to get everything else done. For example, the Department of Defense will not correct the gender in your records for pay/healthcare without an amended/fixed birth certificate. So for myself and other veterans it is a very important piece of paper.

/Hugs,

Cassie

[Drea]

My "correct way" would not necessarily work for the next person but some of the paper trail I followed it would. Getting my birth certificate fixed was nice from an emotional perspective, sort of the cherry on the top of the cake but it was more of a useful tool to enable me to get everything else done. For example, the Department of Defense will not correct the gender in your records for pay/healthcare without an amended/fixed birth certificate. So for myself and other veterans it is a very important piece of paper.

I have no issues with any of that. Most of the peeps I know going to the VA haven't had amended birth certificates and seem to do okay, but I am not versed with the ins and outs there.

The reason I brought up what I did really is to try and put a perspective on it all. To highlight arguments that don't make sense and try to get down what is so often at the root which is along of the lines of "it would be nice" or personal comfort or whatever.

And to highlight the world isn't ending, that there is no need to angst over such things (and angst is another common driving factor. That these things don't have to impact one negatively that its a pebble that hardly causes a ripple in the surface of the river which has some much bigger rocks.

[Guest DesiB]

Just to add an additional piece of perspective, I was born in Ohio, so I can never get my birth certificate to reflect the female brain I was born with--despite the fact that my anatomy is now in alignment with it. I really wish I could get it changed and I think it is wrong that I cannot. But the only thing I've come across so far where I'd need it is to get my passport. And I am registered with the VA as well, even though my DD214 (military discharge papers) cannot be changed, and they registered as female with no difficulties. In fact, when the VA doc at my first visit asked why I was taking such high doses of hormones, I told her I was nearing the end of my transition and would soon be lowering them. She replied that it still seemed awful high for menopause. Then I told her it was not that that kind of transition and actually had to say the 'TS' word. But the bottom line is that even while I am totally on board with protesting it as an injustice that I still cannot change my birth certificate even after all I've been through, I have to admit that the actual impact on my life has been much less than many other issues, such as the lack of medical providers who are just as familiar with how to treat a post-op TS as as they are a woman who has had a complete hysterectomy.