Is Having Children Cruel?

[Guest BunnyWings88]

Hello all,

So this is a topic I am very interested in and would love to hear all of your opinions on. As transgendered individuals, I believe we have a very unique outlook on life. We experience a lot of pain and rejection. But what's even more tragic is knowing there is always someone who is in more pain. Yes, life is full of moments of pleasure and happiness. However, I personally feel pain is more potent than pleasure. As a result, I believe it is cruel to have children. Why? Because despite good intentions and unconditional love, you cannot guarentee anything. You can't guarentee your child's safety, happiness, or health. It is all a gamble. Like my psychology professor says, there are far worse things than having never been born at all.

I would love to hear why you agree/disagree with me. I personally do not like feeling this way, it makes life a bit cold.

Thanks for reading!

-Erica

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hello all,

So this is a topic I am very interested in and would love to hear all of your opinions on. As transgendered individuals, I believe we have a very unique outlook on life. We experience a lot of pain and rejection. But what's even more tragic is knowing there is always someone who is in more pain. Yes, life is full of moments of pleasure and happiness. However, I personally feel pain is more potent than pleasure. As a result, I believe it is cruel to have children. Why? Because despite good intentions and unconditional love, you cannot guarentee anything. You can't guarentee your child's safety, happiness, or health. It is all a gamble. Like my psychology professor says, there are far worse things than having never been born at all.

I would love to hear why you agree/disagree with me. I personally do not like feeling this way, it makes life a bit cold.

Thanks for reading!

-Erica

Dearest Erica,

Having been a parent myself, I can say this... raising children is one of the most rewarding thing one can do with their life. My kids are now grown, and I am proud to see them living the lives that they have chose. They are all living their dreams. Yes, there are no guarantees in life, but that is what life is. Usually, taking the risk in life turns out to be more rewarding than one can possibly imagine! I cannot tell you what to do. You have to find that answer within yourself. I am here to listen and advise if you need.

love,

bernie

[Sally]

I never had any children, nit by choice but by my inability to get past the strangeness that my mind felt when confronted with the possibility of having ex with another woman, because that is what I have always been in my mind.

There are no guarantees for your children's happiness if you aren't transgendered.

If you love children and want to have a family, I do not feel that you are deliberately trying to hurt them.

Some people just have children to prove that they are really men and then later have to work through the problems.

There is only one truly bad thing for children, to be born to parents who did not want a child and won't give it up for adoption by someone who does!

Just my thoughts, Love is the greatest gift that anyone can give,

Sally

[Guest Jackson]

I have always wanted to be a father. I have thought that having children is cruel; however, I do believe that the rewards far outweigh the risks and the pain involved. I've often found that the pleasure and reward of doing something is way better than the pain that may be involved.

[Guest BunnyWings88]

Thank you all for the replies!

Bernie: I'm very happy to hear your children are living their dreams! I wish everyone was so fortunate. I totally agree with you that life can be amazing. People can do wonderful things and make life a little more enjoyable for everyone else. I guess my issue is when there is a chance for greatness or despair, is it worth taking that chance? Im just not sure...

Sally: Yes, it is very tragic when a child is brought into a loveless world. Not everyone is suited to have children. I suppose it is difficult to predict who is suited though. I mean, how do you know you'd make a good parent unless you become a parent? Love and good intentions are vital to happiness. But unfortunately it isn't always enough to protect your child from outside hazards.

Jackson: It's true that anything worth anything in this world requires some amount of work and pain to aquire it. But is it fair to put this burden onto someone else? Children are born into this world with all sorts of expectations. It's a shame we can't ask the baby "are you ready for all of this? do you want all of this? " before they are brought into this world. It's just so sad that not everyone can succeed in life.

Thankyou all again for replying!

[Guest RainBird]

I believe we have the right to bring up and nurture children just like any other person, I really believe it boils down to how you bring up a child, teach them lifes values, and support them.

I am friends with a few other MTF women online through other sites, some who are wonderful mothers to their children, dispite the fact that some may consider trans-women to be a 'Biological Father' they seem to exhibit a healthy bond and relationship like most other caring families

Remember, being a true loving mother or father comes from within, it has nothing to do with some foreign body parts that may hinder

Much luv!

Jacci

[Guest ~Brenda~]

I believe we have the right to bring up and nurture children just like any other person, I really believe it boils down to how you bring up a child, teach them lifes values, and support them.

I am friends with a few other MTF women online through other sites, some who are wonderful mothers to their children, dispite the fact that some may consider trans-women to be a 'Biological Father' they seem to exhibit a healthy bond and relationship like most other caring families

Remember, being a true loving mother or father comes from within, it has nothing to do with some foreign body parts that may hinder

Much luv!

Jacci

Jacci,

I could not have said it better!!! I have tears in my eyes. Right on!!

bernie

[Guest Elizabeth K]

"Like my psychology professor says, there are far worse things than having never been born at all."

TOTALLY wrong! My sister is a fundamental Christian and says all therapy is the devil's work, which I laugh at.

When this sort of thing is said? I can see why some people believe as she does.

I have three children, grown and a wonder to me, a legacy to my heart and soul. I would NEVER accept a chance to transition or whatever, in exchange for them. And believe me those options where there, I was just to blind to see them.

But now? If you told me I can go back in a magical time machine and transition early, I would not, could not, go earlier than their conception. My male body was used for the purpose of briing them to life. THAT in itself is justification for my early life of pain and depression. I would never deny my children.

Children must be brought into existance - it is the only real hope for the world. All other thought is foolishness.

Liz

[Guest BunnyWings88]

I completely agree with you, Liz and Jacci, that parenthood can be a wonderful experience. It is amazing to pass on your legacy onto another generation. However, I'm asking you to look at this from the perspective, not as a parent, but as someone who was born into this world. Perhaps saying "having children is cruel" is a bit much. I will reword it as "having children is not fair." A child has no say in whether they are born or not. One day, they are born and are suddenly expected to play by this world's rules. Is it fair? I must disagree with you Liz, I do believe there are worse things in this world then never have being born (I don't know if I said that right lol). There are countless conditions a baby can be born with that causes pain and disfigurment. Perhaps a condition that guarentees they won't live past 9 years old. For example, Harlequin type ichthyosis. This is a skin condition that causes the skin to break anywhere the skin would naturally fold (eye lids, arm and legs, etc). These children are not only in pain, but are greatly disfigured. Sure, there parents would love them and have no shame for them. But is it really fair that such a child was brought into a world where they didn't stand a chance? I do not mean to anger or offend anyone with this topic. I'm just very interested in hearing people's views on the value of birth.

Thanks for reading!

-Erica

[Guest Jackson]

I will reword it as "having children is not fair." A child has no say in whether they are born or not. One day, they are born and are suddenly expected to play by this world's rules. Is it fair?

-Erica

Good question. Is it fair? I don't think you can really apply this question to this issue because life is inherently unfair. Truly when one looks at it. Is there justice in every part of the world? Is there truth? Is there kindness?

I guess that if I were to put myself into the place before birth and if I were asked if I wanted to be born, I would say yes. I would be willing to take that chance. Life is really a big lottery. But everything in life, even life itself, has risks. One takes risks doing anything.

[Guest CharlieRose]

I think the opinion that having children is cruel or unfair to them is one generally held by people with a rather dismal view of life. People who are upset they were given life.

But that's not the majority of people. It's a very small, tragic minority.

Ever see It's a Wonderful Life? (I know, Frank Capra, blegh, but still)

I think that most everyone has something to contribute, some happiness to feel. I think that it's worth it.

[Guest BunnyWings88]

Hello, sorry for the late reply but my computer is being bleh. I do understand where you are coming from CharlieRose. The notion that "giving life is cruel" is certainly atypical. As for me, I wouldn't describe myself as a dismal person. I am very lucky to have a supportive family, supportive friends, and am also very fortunate to be passing at school. As far as trans stories go, mine is not tear jerker. However, at my lowest low and most depressed, there is something that I find absolutely tragic. There is always someone in more pain. When I hit rock bottom (as many trans people feel they do at some point or another), it just baffles me that there are people out there with harder lives, bigger issues. So it got me to thinking, is it right? Yes, by definition, life has no guarentees. Life is not fair. But is that enough reason to not give life? I feel it is, but that's just my opinion of course. Having never been born isn't really a bad thing. In fact, it is nothing. Had you never been born, there would be no loss to mourn in the first place. If that makes any sense. I haven't seen "It's a Wonderful Life", though I do know the story. It is very true that there are people in this world that make it better. But at the same time, there are people who do the opposite (Hitler comes to mind). But I don't want to turn this into an unreadable wall of text, so I'll stop now =P

-Erica

[Guest leo]

BunnyWings88 - "This is a skin condition that causes the skin to break anywhere the skin would naturally fold (eye lids, arm and legs, etc). These children are not only in pain, but are greatly disfigured. Sure, there parents would love them and have no shame for them. But is it really fair that such a child was brought into a world where they didn't stand a chance?"

every child has the right to be born even if they are disfigured or ill

you will be creating eugenics like hitler if we didnt allow those to live

it is there choice not ours if they want to live

[Guest BunnyWings88]

Hello Leo,

I'm not too sure I agree with you 100%. Saying a baby has the right to be born is also saying a baby has the right not to be born. But frankly, the baby has no say in the matter. Either the mother has the child, miscarries, or has an abortion. It is impossible to ask what the baby wants, which contributes to the "unfairness" of birth. I'm not saying we should go around aborting babies, who is to say when the fetus becomes a human being? It's a messy topic. Death is not the same as having never been born at all. Death is a loss, not existing is nothing. You can't mourn the loss of someone who has never existed.

[Guest Zabrak]

There are babies so disfigured you don't even know. It is not their fault but their mothers. These disfigured babies are often born from mothers who abused drugs well pregnant. Some of the babies who are born are so disfigured that they only live a short time - a few hours. Some live a little longer...some can live full lifes, though. I think there are certain times where it is cruel to let a baby live.

[Guest Jackson]

There are babies so disfigured you don't even know. It is not their fault but their mothers. These disfigured babies are often born from mothers who abused drugs well pregnant. Some of the babies who are born are so disfigured that they only live a short time - a few hours. Some live a little longer...some can live full lifes, though. I think there are certain times where it is cruel to let a baby live.

I was reading a medical journal not too long ago that had an article about European countries dealing with the right to death for babies and infants. It may have been either the New England Journal of Medicine or the Journal of the American Medical Association. This was probably maybe six months ago. The article focused on one European country and how the medical professionals were creating right to death guidelines for neonates. It was rather interesting to read.

[Guest Devonnete]

I have never given birth to any children but most of my exes had kids and my wife and I have a little girl. I love children and there is nothing more precious to me in life than when I find that I've taught one of my kids something and that I mean something to them. I want us (my wife and I) to have more children. As a parent all that you can do is to love children, do the best you can to protect them and take care of their needs.

No matter how a child turns out, it should be given a chance at life.

[Guest BunnyWings88]

Jackson: That does sound interesting. Someone in my class last semester gave a speech about euthanasia. She was against it because there is now clear way to decide when a person is or isn't in enough pain to recieve assisted suicide. I guess that would be the same issue with the fetus. I'm sure a system could be worked out though.

Devonnete: I think raising a child is quite selfless (That is, if you raise them well). It takes a lot of effort, love, support, and money (lol) to raise a child. The issue I have is actually bringing a child into the world. You can't really say that giving life is selfless, because there is no child in the first place to be doing a favor for (if that makes sense lol). People have children because they want to pass on their legacy, they want to experience the miracle of giving life, they want to be a parent. Well that's all fine and dandy but I fail to see how that benefits the child.

So basically what I'm trying to say is...

The act of raising a child is selfless.

But bringing a child into the world is not. (in my opinion)

[Guest mia 1]

I'm certainly not a fundamental Christian or a member of the right wing pro life community...But once a child is conceived he/she have the right to be born...as a parent or mother, the one parent who has the constitutional right to determine full term or abortion, my moral compass says that person growing in the womb is a human being and should be protected by U.S. law or even the laws of Human Rights under the U.N. auspices........

But to turn to the original thread..having children is a risk and the world is a dark and dangerous place...no one has life "easy" doctor, lawyer or Indian Chief..rich or poor...so if you want children, love children, and realize the risk involved and the attention and the cost involved go ahead and have the little bundle of joy..if you are wary of your feelings don't rush into parenthood......no judgment and gender should never be afactor.....if you love your children they will love you no matter your birth gender....Mia

[Guest Elizabeth K]

After watching this TOPIC for a while (I already posted a reply) I see it raises a lot of emotions. I know this subject is really about some basic controversies that have had years of debate, and no real reconciliation between different viewpoints, and I am primarily talking about abortion and birth control. People have murdered people for the right to life! And I am not even attempting to touch on the consequences of parenting!

I just want to say I think the question is unanserable.

When I was in a med school environment (my first wife was a physician) these people, [probably "on paper" the best people on earth to have children when only factors of education and finance are considered] would debate ' is having children cruel?" There were as many opinions as people in the group talking! Surprisingly, many in this social-economical subcatagory said "YES" and then said they could not bring children into such a blighted, world. I would always jibe them back with this joke:

"Having children is a hereditory trait. If your parents don't have children, neither will you."

The point I was making was that 'they' wouldn't have been there if their parents hadn't made the decision, or had the accident, or whatever, of conceiving and raising them.

What wonderous GOOD a caring physican can contribute to the world! Doctors that I know may say they are there because of the status and the benifits, but when you pin them down, thay ALL want to make a difference by offering themselves and their brainpower to society. The public does not know this but in the medical profession, the ultimate specialty is considered to be pathology - where science and study is applied to discovery of better ways to apply medical treatments! How noble is that?

What if these people had never been born?

And birth defects? Zab, I know you blame the parents [and in way too many cases, they ARE to blame]. But too many birth defects are NOT attributable to actions or inactions by the parents. It usually a mystery what causes such terrible mistakes in nature. Why does GOD allow this? Donno, beyound my power to comprehend.

Birth defects is an enigma. But it is something that has always been with us as humans. And is there truely a soul in those bodies that are born so deformed they do not survive?

We transsexual seem to be birth defects of a sort, but like many birth defects what we had was not fatal. We are just victims of a hidden condition so obscure noone can understand it. But we still are contributing humans, for the most part. We usually do as well as the 'normal' population, whatever that is.

Is it cruel to have a child, and have it born defective? I can't recall any parent who INTENTIONALLY wanted a defective child.

So my final say is... well... like everything else in this world, having a child is a pure 'crap shot' and we take a chance, and hope for the best. I haven't touched on the idea of 'raising' a child and how easy it is to ruin that! My opinion is this, that we can only know we are really biological beings, and as such our purpose as mother nature sees us, is to survive long enough to reproduce.

We are engineered to have children.

The choice of 'not having children because it is a cruel thing,' is moot. People who feel strongly that way will just be bred out of the system.

Opinionated Lizzy writes again!

[Guest CharliTo]

I guess....that's why we can do adoptions right? That way we can raise the kids selflessly when they were born selfishly

Still, when you see how much effort is needed up to the point you're born...to me, it feels self-less. Especially for the mother because they're using their own body to make the child.

To me, the world itself is not cruel... I basically make sure I stop and smell the roses sometimes...and you realize that there's more to life than the negative parts. If I had the chance... I'd love to introduce another life to enjoy living... oh well, I learned I was infertile either way anyways.

[Guest RobinSCKörner]

It's a good question, but I consider it an unanswerable one. Yes, when looking at it with a solely rational viewpoint, having children can be said to be cruel, but I don't think life and nature can be seen through a completely rational lens. Nature is what it is, and none of us can really change that. I don't think you can say that it's unfair because you can't ask a child whether it wants to be born, because it can't be done. A child's opinion depends on it's experiences and being in a conscious state, which is only available post-birth. In first-world countries, children aren't asked if they want to go to school, and many can have bad to traumatic experiences during their time there. But can sending children to school be considered cruel?

I agree that there are many things worse than never having been born. It's an interesting thing to think on, but to me this doesn't justify your opinion. As you said, not being born is nothing - it is totally neutral. The fact doesn't support or oppose the question.

Maybe it is cruel and unfair, but what can any of us do? There is no alternative to reproduction, and so whether we like it or not - and whether you or I personally reproduce or not - we just have to live with it. I think nature is too large for any of us to question its actions.

Just my two cents.

- Robin

[Guest BunnyWings88]

Lizzy- Nothing wrong with opinionated And yes, I find that this question cannot be answered. Though I think it is very interesting to talk about. I don't think a parent ever want to intentionally give their child a defect, unless they were twisted and evil. However, I don't think an act has to be intentional to be cruel. Sometimes we hurt those we think we are helping. But like I said, perhaps "cruel" is too strong of a word. I think "unfair" is a bit better. haha You are right about being bred out of the system. Though I do have nieces and nephews so I'm sure some of my DNA will live on. Though passing on genetics isn't really something I value. It is true that we are programmed to reproduce. It seems to be nature's goal. However, I think humans are all about altering nature. Which is a good thing in my opinion. I think transsexuals are a good example of that. Born in the wrong body? Change it!

ChariliTo- Adopting is a wonderful thing, well, most of the time. Depends on the parents! I suppose it depends on your definition of "selfless". It is true that the mother uses up a lot of physical and emotional energy carrying a child until birth. However, I feel people (or most) have children so they can say "I'm a mommy or I'm a daddy!" A way of passing on their legacy. Of course there are several other reasons. Maybe someone got pregnant on accident but won't abort due to religious views. In that case, they want to have a child for the sake of not sinning. It's a big mess of arbitrary values

Of course, to those of us already in this world, stopping to smell the roses is a must! You can't be "unborn" so you have to make the best of the situation. Enjoy life while it lasts.

Robin- Again, I agree that the question has no "real" answer. I also agree that the "life is cruel, don't have kids" notion is very rational. So I suppose how you look at it depends on your ratio of rational and irrational thinking. I like your school metaphor

Though it is tricky to compare forcing someone to go to school to forcing someone into life. School is used to give kids a better quality of life. Yes, they can suffer trama that may last their whole life. But not going to school would really make it hard for you to live a comfortable life. And isn't the point of life to be as happy as you can be? So in a way, not making your kid go to school would be cruel (and illegal ) However, not bringing a kid into the world would be nothing, neutral as you said.

Going to School= raised chances for a "good life"

No school=raised chances of bad quality of life

Not being born=nothing

Being born= Exposed to all that is negative/positive in this world (how much negative exposure and postive exposure depends). Not to mention you have to deal with the thought of dying someday

If life can be worse then never having been born at all, is it not unfair to bring a child into this world with that risk? I think it is, but we may have different definitions of what "unfair" is

[Guest Amanda L Richards]

Hi Bunnywings,

I have never thought of it as being cruel or not. I have always been of the opinion that one should only have children when and only when they are abslutely ready to.

But that brings me to the first step in this process. I first of all think that noone should tie themselves to a realationship either unless they have all of their issues or at least most of them understood and dealt with. I have seen most people go into relationships and bringing most of their baggage from the past with them and then run into major problems without being able to focus on the realationship at hand. Then they are the same ones that will have children.

That puts the children into a conflict situation. the parents don't have the focus they should to deal with themselves and there fore relatively nothgin left over for the child. When this happens, rearing the child is going to be a half efforted job at best and the child is missing out on important parts of the learning they need.

My point is that when someone is able to focus on the child when and how much they are supposed to, then the child gets a high quality learning environment whereby they are taught as much as is humanly possible to handle good and bad situations in life. Basically it is all about the parents being well balanced mentally and emotionally. When this happens there is no better parenting anywhere. When that balance isn't there then the child is losing out.

That is my observation.

Amanda LR