Retreat Into Hyper-masculinity

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I was poking around on the internets today and started to notice something. First, and this is something that I've heard mentioned elsewhere, there seems to be this backlash in our culture against traditional masculinity. Traditional masculinity isn't "right" and isn't "proper". People roll their eyes at the unenlightened man and rush to fawn over what my grandfather would call a "girly man", in his super-tight "skinny jeans" and 3 sizes too small t-shirt.

Now, I'm really beyond ecstaticly happy that gender barriers are coming down and that people are more free than ever to be who they are inside. That's nothing short of PURE AWESOME.

However, along with this very positive trend seems to come this weird disapproval of things that are considered strongly masculine. For example, aggressiveness or behaviors that could be construed as aggressive are all but forbidden. It's to the point that boys can't really just be boys anymore. You have to sit still, listen, take turns...or be punished. It's like walking on eggshells all the time. Especially since I began transition and have been passing, I feel kind of...alienated. Suddenly behaviors that were okay when I identified publically as female are now met with much rolling of eyes and opposition. This happens even with people who still mix up my pronouns. For example, it used to be that my advisor would listen to me when I'd disagree with something in lab meeting. Now she complains that I'm "surly" or "disagreeable". I wonder if this happens in other places and to other guys.

I'm guessing that it does. I've noticed younger guys (as in those 18 to 25ish...since that's what I see a lot of) are picking up more of what I'd call "traditionally masculine rituals". For example, smoking expensive cigars, wanting to shave with a straight razor, and eating ridiculous amounts of bacon (seriously, bacon has become very chic lately) are things that I'm starting to hear more and more young guys talk about. I wonder if this is a kind of "reaction" to being pushed to give up masculinity in other domains. ...or is it just companies trying to glamorize something to create new markets?

Also, has anyone noticed how really unhealthy stuff tends to be what is considered "masculine"? The other day we deep fried an entire hamburger and my roommate ate it. I told a friend on Facebook about it and he said "OMG, that is like the most manly thing I have ever heard of". Cigar smoking, which is certainly not so good for you, is considered very manly...it's smelly, cancerous, and oh so manly. Excess is manly. Temperance and moderation are often associated with being feminine. I feel like considering excess masculine and polite moderation feminine is a bit damaging to all involved. We're both trapped!! Girls can't have that extra doughnut without getting the stank eye from her friends. Guys have to do shots of melted lard to prove themselves. It's crazy!!

In the end, I guess we have to all choose our particular expression of masculinity (or femininity if any of you ladies are reading). I, for one, would like to be able to get away with being argumentative and pushy...but also not get picked on for ordering the grilled chicken instead of the mega fried bacon and cheese artery disease sandwich. That being said, I do tend to pick on vegans.

Happy thinking!

[Guest Zabrak]

I'M A LADY MAGNET! lol

OW OW OW OW OH GOD MY MOUTH IS BURNING. I ATE A WHOLE BAG OF CHIPS WITH HOT DIP. OH GOD OH GOD

..........ok....

I really don't have much to add here. I really can't seem to stay serious for too long lately but no matter where you go you'll find "social no-nos" both male or female directed. It is your choice rather to avoid them or do as you please despite the eye rolling.

[Guest Jackson]

I have noticed that there is this backlash against the traditional masculinity; however, I had not noticed the retreating into hyper-masculinity per se. I think that this backlash isn't happening everywhere. We don't get a lot of this backlash of masculinity out where I live. My friends and I eat a lot of bacon and, once in a while, do smoke cigars, but we don't do it to be hypermasculine. We've always done this. It's not changed at all. But we also don't get on anyone when they do more healthy stuff like getting grilled chicken instead of something deep fried. But maybe this is all because my friends and I are not in that younger guy group.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I have noticed that there is this backlash against the traditional masculinity; however, I had not noticed the retreating into hyper-masculinity per se. I think that this backlash isn't happening everywhere. We don't get a lot of this backlash of masculinity out where I live. My friends and I eat a lot of bacon and, once in a while, do smoke cigars, but we don't do it to be hypermasculine. We've always done this. It's not changed at all. But we also don't get on anyone when they do more healthy stuff like getting grilled chicken instead of something deep fried. But maybe this is all because my friends and I are not in that younger guy group.

I'm in kind of a weird place because I'm older, but end up being around the college aged crowd a lot (cause I'm a grad student). I eat bacon and smoke cigars sometimes too, but have done that stuff since I was like 15 or 16. In addition to those things, I also shoot cans in the back yard. Being from the south, it isn't surprising that I do these things.

What's weird is when you see these preppy little "good boys" picking up on this stuff. Young dudes are also getting to be all about getting a shave with a straight razor. It isn't weird that these traditions persist, it's odd to me that they are becoming so commonplace that even an old man like me keeps hearing about them. Kids are CRAZY with the cigars. Cigars used to be a once in a while thing, now every frat boy with a popped collar has one.

[Guest Kelly Ann]

You really aren't imagining it SOT...it's funny but I will let you in on a little secret. It used to be children being unruly was NOT uncommon...it was actually encouraged to a very slight degree. If you were REALLY out of line you got a whuppin'...LOL...whoopee They were merely welts of 'honor'. Today they say your hyper-active and medicate people into submission...I was a Ramones fan, I can be sedated...but not as a way to stifle a childs 'natural' pre-delictions even if they are overly rough occasionally. That's where your thinking is coming from as men are being feminized on so many fronts...particularly in elementary and pre-high school now that...when men may sort of...disappear. The John Waynes and Clint the Squints et al will always be around...thankfully...but surprisingly there are people like YOU that are taking up the slack too. This is a natural backlash of younger people to what is being 'dumped on' them...it's usually called rebellion, and it's what a youngster does best if they are thinking. I'm going to have to have a mini-re-think on this role-reversal thing having seen some of it from a distance now...hmmmm there's a lot more here I would have suspected. Thanks SOT...you really made me think ...argh, now my brain hurts, Kelly Ann

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I'M A LADY MAGNET! lol

OW OW OW OW OH GOD MY MOUTH IS BURNING. I ATE A WHOLE BAG OF CHIPS WITH HOT DIP. OH GOD OH GOD

..........ok....

I really don't have much to add here. I really can't seem to stay serious for too long lately but no matter where you go you'll find "social no-nos" both male or female directed. It is your choice rather to avoid them or do as you please despite the eye rolling.

LOL! At least you didn't eat this:

I generally do as I please. It's the arguing that is getting to me. My advisor argues with EVERYTHING I say now. She hasn't always done that. Other male students in my lab said she did it to them, and I'd be all like "Seriously?". Well, now I believe them. At our last lab meeting I said something perfectly reasonable, the sort of thing no sensible person would argue with...and she totally argued with me. It's like she interprets everything I say as a direct attack. I'd avoid her (and actually have been), but I really can't because she's my primary advisor...in other words, my boss.

[Guest Crossroads]

I think it all comes down to being an individual. "Normal" is never normal. There's this push for people to conform and be normal, and when you do that, they find something wrong with you. And people who try so hard to be different end up acting so much the same.

I keep hearing FTMs talking and trying to "prove" to themselves and those around them how manly they are. Not ALL do this, but I'm seeing a trend in some. Quite a few are pretty obsessive, almost letting the stereotype of "man" get in the way of the whole point of transitioning, becoming who you REALLY ARE! I've quit trying to think, "is this manly?" or "Oh, man. that was so girly." I've just tried not to judge myself and let myself be myself...FINALLY!

As usual, you bring up some awesome points, Ainsley. Thanks.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I think it all comes down to being an individual. "Normal" is never normal. There's this push for people to conform and be normal, and when you do that, they find something wrong with you. And people who try so hard to be different end up acting so much the same.

I keep hearing FTMs talking and trying to "prove" to themselves and those around them how manly they are. Not ALL do this, but I'm seeing a trend in some. Quite a few are pretty obsessive, almost letting the stereotype of "man" get in the way of the whole point of transitioning, becoming who you REALLY ARE! I've quit trying to think, "is this manly?" or "Oh, man. that was so girly." I've just tried not to judge myself and let myself be myself...FINALLY!

As usual, you bring up some awesome points, Ainsley. Thanks.

Thanks! I try.

It's interesting about how your gender presentation colors how people perceive you. For the most part, I act the same way I always have. Though I don't pass 100%, I am looking more masculine than I did 6 months ago. Even people that knew me "before" are reacting to me differently. It's just weird.

I felt really good yesterday. We had an older adult research participant that totally read me as male. I could tell because he called me "sport" and talked to me about Clemson football (because I'd told him I'm from South Carolina). Anyway, I think my football knowledge was a little disappointing because I don't know anything about it. If he'd wanted to talk about muscle cars, I'd have been all ears.

[Guest Evan_J]

LOL I have to log on more often if for no other reason than the FtM forum. Stranded your stuff is goooood. lol.

Now, the cigars, thats been an "everywhere" thing (at least where I live) for over 10 years now. The straight edge I didn't know about, though coincidentally I did buy one a couple months ago. More liking vintage stuff on my part than an intent to use it. It IS interesting to me though that this is going on. Could be a backlash, just like you speculate. Could be a backlash to current "rules" though, just as Kelly Ann suggested. Or a combination of each. As for the "temperance and moderation" being considered feminine, (funny you should say this.....) I think its an extention of "female cautiousness". You have to admit bro -at least its what I experience- a woman (think of your mother vs your father?) will "worry" you up a freakin wall ("be careful", "don't go so fast", "dress warmer", "wear your scarf", "I don't think you should do that" blah blah blah) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than a fella. Fellas? We go "you good?" And as long as you say "yeah" keep going. So the archtyping is a "blow up" of actual actions on the part of women as far as I'm concerned. The archtype for the men is just whatever is dynamically opposite to that

I dunno, for me anyway I could easily see "lashing out" as young male against the "new" man. But I think that goes for any male who isn't actually that way. An entire social world trying to push you into acting like something you aren't? Oh I could see that. Protests about not being that way being met with accusations about your "security" and whether or not you're "ust not confident enough to admit how you actually 'are' ". I not only would "lash back" I likely would lash out.

[Guest jantonio]

This is a very good topic Stranded. I have normally behaved the way older men do, smoke ocassional cigars, open doors for women, be polite to women, and behave like a kid when I am with my friends. Hehe... I see that alot of the sexual and gender barriers are being broken or lets say are now more out in the open and showing people that hey we are people just like you with feelings and emotions. Last night I had the lucky opportunity to participate in a transgender panel at a university and it was amazing to see that the audience was surprised to see that we are normal people and that we have our spirituality and such.

I think at the begining of my transition I was trying to make sure I acted as masculine as possible but then I just relaxed and said to myself just be "yourself", "just be".

Jose Antonio...

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

This is a very good topic Stranded. I have normally behaved the way older men do, smoke ocassional cigars, open doors for women, be polite to women, and behave like a kid when I am with my friends. Hehe... I see that alot of the sexual and gender barriers are being broken or lets say are now more out in the open and showing people that hey we are people just like you with feelings and emotions. Last night I had the lucky opportunity to participate in a transgender panel at a university and it was amazing to see that the audience was surprised to see that we are normal people and that we have our spirituality and such.

I think at the begining of my transition I was trying to make sure I acted as masculine as possible but then I just relaxed and said to myself just be "yourself", "just be".

Jose Antonio...

Jose! I haven't seen you around in a while. How's it going? Chest healing up okay?

Okay, back on topic! I was pretty uptight about making sure I was extra masculine at first too. I'd literally lie to my friends about being able to cook. Now that I'm settling in and am feeling less insecure, I actually feel good about being able to cook well. After all, my dad can make a mean red velvet cake and is pretty awesome with the decorating too. It doesn't make him less of a man. In fact, my dad does a lot of stuff that isn't all that manly...like attending a spin class or yoga class full of women.

Maybe some of what I'm seeing among the young cisgendered guys I'm around is typical and normal. It might be that they are just exploring masculinity in the normal way and I'm just getting to see it for the first time. After all, my 20's were spent in confusion and denial. I'm sure I missed some stuff.