Clarification...

[Guest Zack L]

Alright. My Mother continually uses the following argument against me on the rare occasions we talk about my being trans. "If you go on these hormones there's no going back! Everything will permanently change!"

Now, T is still far off for me, so I haven't researched this too in depth. But I'm fairly sure at least SOME things aren't permanent. If I can give her a list, or more facts, about what things are/aren't reversible then maybe I can make some headway. It's clear that it's still technically possible to have kids (Which is a huge concern for her. What the heck, I've never wanted to carry babies.) but she tends to be very very...dense? I guess? I tried for years to tell her that I had insomnia and was barely sleeping at all. Tried to buy pills and she took them away. She finally shut up and listen when the shrink basically said "Your kid is sleeping so little they're sometimes psychotic. Pills now, kthx?"

Thus, I think if I can get her to take me to a gender shrink for evaluation she might ease up. I've seen it before. And hopefully if I allieveate some of her fears she'll let me GO to one. This is my back up plan from the others, or a support at least. =P

So, anyone know?

[Guest Cody_T]

It's a beautiful thing. ... sorry, that's going off your title

moving on- the permanent side I know for a fact is voice, and fat distribution isn't. I'm banking on my reproductive things still being implantable in someone else...

Actually, you should check out meikoelias on youtube... he's gq and took T for a while then stopped. He has a video on the permanent and not permanent aspects of it.

Oops, I just checked and somehow all his old videos are gone? In that case, I'm no help... but he's probably going to reupload it.

Good luck with your mom

[Guest Little Sara]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_repla...female-to-male)

From article:

For transmen, taking androgens (i.e. testosterone) causes reversible and irreversible changes.

Irreversible changes

* deepening of the voice,

* growth of facial and body hair,

* male pattern baldness (in some individuals),

* an enlargement of the clitoris,

* growth spurt and closure of growth plates if given before the end of puberty, and

* possible shrinking and/or softening of breasts, although this is due to changes in fat tissue.

Reversible changes

* increased libido,

* redistribution of body fat,

* cessation of ovulation and menstruation,

* further muscle development (especially upper body),

* increased sweat and changes in body odor,

* prominence of veins and coarser skin,

* acne (especially in the first few years of therapy),

* alterations in blood lipids (cholesterol and triglycerides), and

* increased red blood cell count.

The psychological changes are harder to define, since HRT is usually the first physical action that takes place when transitioning. This fact alone has a significant psychological impact, which is hard to distinguish from hormonally induced changes. Most transmen report an increase of energy and an increased sex drive. Many also report feeling more confident.

While a high level of testosterone is often associated with an increase in aggression, this is not a noticeable effect in most transmen. HRT doses of testosterone are much lower than the typical doses taken by steroid-using athletes, and create testosterone levels comparable to those of most non-trans men. These levels of testosterone have not been proven to cause more aggression than comparable levels of estrogen. It is assumed that the effect of the start of physical treatment is such a relief, and decreases pre-existing aggression so much, that the overall level of aggression actually decreases.

Some transmen are unable to pass as men without hormones. The most commonly cited reason for this is that their voice may reveal them.

[Guest Zabrak]

I was told by my doctor that the voice is irreversible. At some point you grow a adams apple so it becomes a problem if you're trying to switch back.

[Guest Little Sara]

MtF effects are also irreversible.

Irreversible changes

* breast development,

* enlarged nipples and areolae

* stretch marks (for some)

I'd add:

-Infertility

HRT is never to be taken lightly, but it's not something to be scared of anymore than other life-saving medications.

[Guest Zack L]

Hm. She won't like the voice thing. Maybe I'll just leave that out unless she brings it up. XD And...hm. She won't like the facial hair bit either. This might not make for such a good argument. XD;;

[Guest Zack L]

HRT is never to be taken lightly, but it's not something to be scared of anymore than other life-saving medications.

I know, it's frustrating how much my Mom just...doesn't get it and refuses to even try to understand. I already technically take a type of hormone everyday. I think insulin is a hormone at least. That's a lot more dangerous than T -- I almost went into diabetic coma yesterday, I was at 40 because I miscalculated how much I ate. But she just doesn't see it.

She also doesn't get that each day that passes like this I'm falling more and more back into my depression. I've managed to beat it back the last 3 times it tried to control me, but it keeps coming back. I'm scared that one of these times I'm not going to be strong enough and it'll beat me instead. T_T

*ramble/whine*

Okay, done now. Sorry. >_<

[Guest Little Sara]

Hm. She won't like the voice thing. Maybe I'll just leave that out unless she brings it up. XD And...hm. She won't like the facial hair bit either. This might not make for such a good argument. XD;;

You do it for yourself first and foremost though.

Can you live until you die with a deeper voice and a visible Adam's apple?

Can you live with more body hair and some facial hair for the rest of your life?

Ask her if she could live without her breasts the rest of your life, and tell her that how you feel is exactly the opposite: you can't fathom living the rest of your life with breasts and a high-pitched voice.

Try finding an argument that places her in your shoes, as if she was stuck in a male body, but felt exactly the same as she does now. How would she react?

I know from experience I'd be pretty peed off by this. And try to rectify things, not just passively accept them.

[Guest Zack L]

Oh no, I know it's not for her. At all. If I could do this without her Id already have a gender shrink. The only reason I'm trying to placate her is because she controls eeeevrything right now. I haven't been able to get a job so I don't even have funds of my own. Or a car, I can't drive.

I've tried that, I try it almost every time she starts ranting to me about this. She just...doesn't seem to have either the imagination or the empathy to place herself in a similar situation. Or she refuses t because she doesn't WANT to change her opinion, not because she can't.

She says she looks at me and sees nothing but a girl, that she could never see me as a man. God I can't wait to get away from her.

[Guest Liam]

Here's a brochure about hormones and FTMs. It seems like a good resource.

www.vch.ca/transhealth/resources/library/tcpdocs/consumer/hormones-FTM.pdf

And for the ladies, here's one for MTFs:

www.vch.ca/transhealth/resources/library/tcpdocs/consumer/hormones-MTF.pdf

[Guest Sergei]

Zack, you're 18, so you're an adult. It's up to you what you take and what you do to your body. I agree with the info that everybody else has given you about permanent and non-permanent changes so you don't need me to tell you them again. But what I will tell you is that the changes do happen very slowely. It's my 1 year anniversary on T in 2 days time. Your voice will change very quickly, mine finished breaking after about 6 months. But in terms of hair growth that happens a lot slower. I still can't grow a proper beard. My mother was worried about me taking T as well at first, and the way I dealt with it was pretty much by telling her I was going to do it whatever and she could either accept it or not and lose me. When I met up with her after I had been taking T for a while I think it just struck her how happy I was and she all of a sudden became very comfortable with it all. I think sometimes the only way is to give people ultimatums. You have to be happy with yourself, because you have to live with you for the rest of your life. People find the idea of change hard to contemplate, but they get used to it.

[Guest Little Sara]

Zack, you're 18, so you're an adult. It's up to you what you take and what you do to your body. I agree with the info that everybody else has given you about permanent and non-permanent changes so you don't need me to tell you them again. But what I will tell you is that the changes do happen very slowely. It's my 1 year anniversary on T in 2 days time. Your voice will change very quickly, mine finished breaking after about 6 months. But in terms of hair growth that happens a lot slower. I still can't grow a proper beard. My mother was worried about me taking T as well at first, and the way I dealt with it was pretty much by telling her I was going to do it whatever and she could either accept it or not and lose me. When I met up with her after I had been taking T for a while I think it just struck her how happy I was and she all of a sudden became very comfortable with it all. I think sometimes the only way is to give people ultimatums. You have to be happy with yourself, because you have to live with you for the rest of your life. People find the idea of change hard to contemplate, but they get used to it.

I did the same for my mother when I went full-time. She was uncomfortable seeing me as a girl, but when she saw me, she wasn't too uncomfortable. She eventually didn't care (just a few weeks later). I have her an ultimatum that she either saw me now, or never again.

[Guest Sergei]

I did the same for my mother when I went full-time. She was uncomfortable seeing me as a girl, but when she saw me, she wasn't too uncomfortable. She eventually didn't care (just a few weeks later). I have her an ultimatum that she either saw me now, or never again.

At the end of the day if somebody can't accept your transition then they just don't love you enough. My mother has been great despite her reservations at first. She even gets excited about the changes she sees as well now when I see her. She's happy for me, and I'm sure that once your mum gets used to the idea she will be happy for you too Zack.

[Guest Evan_J]

Mothers are kind of "universal" with the denial, arguments and flip outs lol. Its not just you. Ultimately though, Sergei said, you are an adult. If you choose to transition there's not a lot she can do about it but either figure out how to live through it or decide she doesn't want you to be her kid anymore. And personally, yours sounds too overprotective to opt for the second.

Other permanent changes include the changes to shape of your head.

As for the reproductive part Cody, think of freezing those eggs if you want em implanted in someone. I know people take the chance/ make the decision to use theirs anyway after starting T, but the truth is they do get affected and exactly what those affects are/ what the longrange outcome will be the doctors are not sure to those eggs. They "think" its ok if you stop exposing them to the high levels for at least 9 months before they get fertilized but only time really can tell.

Actually Zack, I think the permanent voice change and adams apple is the best thing since oxygen but thats just me. And you can always relish it without telling her. I think the one that made my mother "holler out" when she read it was the baldness lol she was like "omg, you're going to go bald" lol. I don't even think she read past that. (In fact I know she didn't because she has too many "basic" questions now.)

I dunno, I leave out whatever I feel like it, I figure the person who needs to know and that it concerns is me whatever I tell I do it with judgement and the knowledge that I'm dealing with someone who is overresponsive and acting out of that "mother" mindframe

[Guest Cody_T]

As for the reproductive part Cody, think of freezing those eggs if you want em implanted in someone. I know people take the chance/ make the decision to use theirs anyway after starting T, but the truth is they do get affected and exactly what those affects are/ what the longrange outcome will be the doctors are not sure to those eggs. They "think" its ok if you stop exposing them to the high levels for at least 9 months before they get fertilized but only time really can tell.

but it's soo expensiveeee... and my kids are already going to cost me about a million dollars each. Think how rich I could be!

maybe I can get my parents to pay for that on the basis that then they can have genetic grandchildren or something... except then I'll have even more pressure to get a husband. Even worse than "we want grandchildren" is "we paid for grandchildren"

As for effects... I wish Beatie had become pregnant like, 20 years ago or something . I read one article where the experts didn't *think* there was an issue... and mentioned that the kid could get testosterone in the womb, which wouldn't be an issue cause it's not getting inside of me. I'd really hate to give birth to a kid with an increased risk of cancer or something like that though... because I'll be too overprotective. I'm gonna be a doctor so I can take care of him (we can pick if we get it done by doctors, right? I'd feel bad to have a girl with two dads), but I'd rather not be putting my kid on a special diet and limiting sun exposure . I did come across polycystic ovary syndrome, which results in androgen production (not as high as T guys, of course, but better than not at all) and I haven't been able to find info on how the kids turn out (aside from hyperandrogenism and insulin resistance, which is in direct effect of the PCOS), and so that's probably good, meaning either they haven't studied it or don't have a correlation. I'm going with the second

Luckily I have like a year or two to think about this (and try super hard to get a job!)

sorry to hijack your thread Zack...

[Guest Sergei]

Other permanent changes include the changes to shape of your head.

Really? Does your head change shape? I've never read this anywhere before or heard it, and I don't think my head has changed shape during my year on T.

[Guest Little Sara]

Havent heard about the shape change either. And in 3 years, havent noticed a thing.

[Sally]

The changes in shape to your head are mostly in the jaw and chin areas, just a redistribution of fat there as well - not too drastic, but find a before picture and take one after several months on hormones and look at your chin and jaw - they will be different.

I read about that somewhere and it scared me - I don't have a very masculine face (people who don't know I'm trans call it baby faced) and I'm afraid that I will end up with a two year old's chin and jawline!

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Sergei]

The changes in shape to your head are mostly in the jaw and chin areas, just a redistribution of fat there as well - not too drastic, but find a before picture and take one after several months on hormones and look at your chin and jaw - they will be different.

I read about that somewhere and it scared me - I don't have a very masculine face (people who don't know I'm trans call it baby faced) and I'm afraid that I will end up with a two year old's chin and jawline!

Love ya,

Sally

Ok, by head I thought Evan meant like my whole head was meant to change shape! lol I've heard about the jaw before. I have noticed the fat redistribution under my chin. I'm quite a big guy generally but my face seems to have slimmed down since I went on T even though generally I've put on 2 stone. That is what you meant right Evan? lol

Thanks for clearing that up Sally x

[Guest Zabrak]

Yes, for FTMs theres changes in the jaw. I've seen it in before and after pictures with FTMs. I like this part of it very much.

[Guest Evan_J]

maybe I can get my parents to pay for that on the basis that then they can have genetic grandchildren or something

Truthfully, they probably would. You would be AMAZED what parents will offer you/ do out of wanting grandchildren My mother found out I was transitioning it was one of her first thoughts. She shoulda had a sign "I want those eggs" but she didn't know I'd already started T. And 4 months later the total hysto so I dunno what she's thinking but prior she was ready to run through fire with proverbial gasoline-underwear on

[Guest Zack L]

I'll be giving my Mom an ultimatum when I'm out of college and don't need her to pay for it anymore -- at this point if I do it I could really screw up college. Plus she's talked about kicking me out to my Dad's permanently before...and that would be very, very, very bad. Because as hard as it is here, it'll be so much worse there. XD Wish I had a liberal dad. Or whatever, just not mine. Conservative, Christian, Country clubber, who cares too much what other's think of him.

I personally can't wait for the voice change -- do want. But I already am getting the complaints that I'm ruining my singing voice. Because, you know, singing is worth more than my happiness. I would just leave out it's permanence or something but she researches stuff to prove me wrong. Won't do it preemptively, but goes to check that all I say is correct and then yells at me if I said something untrue.

However! I made slight progress today!

We were in the car getting mcdonalds before the movie and...I' bad at writing stuff out in paragraph form, gonna do it like a script. =P

Mom: Why don't you run inside and take you insulin?

Zack: No, that's fine, I'd rather just do it in the car.

Mom: Why? It'd be more comfortable in the bathroom?

Zack: *turns to look at Mom* Because I don't USE bathrooms when I'm out with people.

Mom: *stares in confusion*

Zack: If I try to use the men's room, YOU yell at me. If I try and use the girls room I get glared at and asked ridiculous questions.

Mom: ...What?

Zack: "You DO know this is the girl room right?" "Why are you in here!?"

Mom: ...They think you're a guy in the girl's room.

Zack: *sigh* Yes. Yes, that's what they think.

Mom: You know what? Fine then. Fine. Use whatever bathroom you want. Whatever. *ignore*

Woot, look at me, I'm just as good as Jonathan Larson! XD

But yeah. Step forward methinks. Next battle will be trying to get her to call me "Jay" Because that at least is androgynous. She refuses outright to call me Zack, and I can't stand "Jenna". Thus, I've been trying to make her use Jay. Note: I am not Jay, which is why I didn't just PICK that name to begin with. >_<

*frustration*

However, at least now I can pee in peace, so long as she doesn't use my female name around anyone who could go in the bathroom.