Jump to content
  • Welcome to the TransPulse Forums!

    We offer a safe, inclusive community for transgender and gender non-conforming folks, as well as their loved ones, to find support and information.  Join today!

Masculine Gestures


Recommended Posts

Sorry, guys,

Before you throw me out, I've brought pizzas - Sally is always welcome when she has pizzas! (Except by that Weight Watcher's bunch)

I have been reading all of the posts for some time and I know that we all obsess on gestures like they will make or break our passing, Zabrak admits that he kind of likes the blend that he has of both , it is just him and there is nothing wrong with that.

I have a link to a scene from a musical (sorry Jackson - it's the Music Man) for the express purpose of having you watch the main character Professor Harold Hill (played by a wonderful actor, Robert Preston - he was always a leading man, played a Mountie more than once, so good looking) and see if you can find even one distinctly masculine gesture in the entire scene.

This is a lady's man, women loved him and until he played in "Victor, Victoria" no one had ever thought of him as anything but 'all man', it is confidence and attitude - mimicry and practice can not take the place of confidence or the Chimpanzees would be feeding the zoo officials.

Be confident and be yourself - "Remember my Friends listen to me, for I pass this way but once!"

Sally steps down from the statue and gathers the dirty pizza plates and exits the men's forum.

Link to comment
Guest Jackson

You're always welcome, Sally.

Okay, I like Robert Preston. Thanks for the link, Sally. I think it's been a long enough time since junior high that I can watch The Music Man. Not all of the songs, just a few.

We also need to remember how our culture and society are at any given time. Back in the Civil War, men in uniform wanted an hourglass figure similar to women's figures. If you look at CDVs or tintypes of the time, men's shoulders were noticeably wider than their waists and then their hips flaired out slightly. The uniforms also gave men a swelled, pigeon-breasted look. This was the correct style for back then.

So look at the men in The Music Man. Robert Preston doesn't look like the muscular kind of guy out society currently thinks of as masculine. But he also doesn't come across as anything but masculine either.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Link to comment
Guest Cody_T

I gave up pizza for lent =(

Well, I really enjoyed the song. And I think you're right about the confidence and the attitude... because basically, he is masculine and all of his actions move off of that so that they all seem masculine as well. And while none of them would be definitely masculine aside from the confidence/taking control thing, they're also not distinctly feminine. On their own, they're pretty neutral gestures. What makes them work on him are his manner, but even more so, his look and his voice. And like Jackson says, it's a different time period.

Were we not without male secondary sex characteristics, I don't think that the actions would be so important. But think about this same scene, but if he looked feminine and had a high voice. You're going to think gay right away, whether or not it's true. Or even that he's a woman; you never know. Because of these distinctions, it is useful that we pick up certain mannerisms if it's important to us to pass.

I'm not saying you have to do that; I'm fine with my normal voice and my natural mannerisms (which are on the masculine side, that helps), with which I pass pretty often. But people always think that I'm about 12 or 13 because my voice is so high and I still have somewhat feminine actions. Any use of young tends to tip me off that people are reading me male. Also, it helps that I'm gay, because people tend to assume that if they get past the young and it doesn't bother me cause it's true.

Ultimately, it's going to be our confidence and our attitude, but until we get to the point where we can have them seen correctly, mannerisms are only going to help us. Evan mentioned in a separate thread how everything we do is filtered through our percieved gender. That's why we have to develop certain actions/mannerisms when we're pre everything... because no matter our attitude, or how confident we are, if they're filtering our actions through the female gender it does nothing for us.

I deal with masculinity as a state of being rather than a presentation, but I also need that external manifestation, which is where the actions come in. Certain things are important to perception, and mannerisms on pre t guys are just one of those things. I'm sure it's the same way with girls.

Link to comment
Guest Evan_J
I gave up pizza for lent =(

LOL I love you Cody. You rock. LOL Only you could say that in the middle of a transsexual forum as a gay guy and have it work.

(**Imagines the popes head spinning around like Linda Blair and his hair standing straight up)

I can't help it, I used to be Catholic, its funny for me.

But "exactly" masculinity is a state of being.

Its the part that says it really wouldn't matter "what I did" (have a pink shirt, wear a girly outfit, kiss a baby) you still would be able to look at me and say "why is he wearing that girls outfit?"- You would be very much aware of the masculinity. And I think it was Drew (? forgive me Drew if it was in fact someone else) who said something once about a wedding where they got pressed into wearing some outfit "dictated" by the bride. The entire guestlist spent the day with that "why do you have a guy in those clothes?" scowl.

As for mannerisms in particular, they do play a role in perception when that masculinity is present and maybe the T hasn't been started to have the body co-sign whats being perceived or if the surgery hasn't been accomplished yet . Then presentation "dispells" the "confused" state of peeps.

Link to comment
Guest Little Sara
I deal with masculinity as a state of being rather than a presentation, but I also need that external manifestation, which is where the actions come in. Certain things are important to perception, and mannerisms on pre t guys are just one of those things. I'm sure it's the same way with girls.

It helps, but I never had to work on it. I think body language counts for a lot more than most physical cues, including height, face shape and thickness of body hair. (breasts still win the palm)

Link to comment
Guest Evan_J
(breasts still win the palm)

Not really. Cuz I haven't had a binder on since the hysto, and am not "flat" and no one has called me "miss" so I know if it can be "overruled" for a FtM it can be for a MtF.

Link to comment
Guest Crossroads

Thank you for saying all the things I've been thinking, Sally! I grew up with "old" movies (Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, and Mickey Rooney were my favorite guys...later on I got into Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby)...it was so good to see this movie again!!!! And I'm reminded of the time (I can't remember the time period exactly) when it was popular for women to smoke, have deep voices and wide shoulders, and to swagger like a man. Interesting stuff.

But I have to agree with Cody and Evan. When you have no other means of passing, mannerisms can do a lot for a person. Until one passes physically, mannerisms help out. I'll be moving soon, with only a month of Testosterone under my belt. I don't have a terribly high voice, but I do get called "ma'am" about a third of the time. I'll definitely need those mannerisms until a few months down the road.

Cody, my partner graciously ate your slice of pizza. :D

Link to comment
Guest Little Sara
Not really. Cuz I haven't had a binder on since the hysto, and am not "flat" and no one has called me "miss" so I know if it can be "overruled" for a FtM it can be for a MtF.

Depends a lot on the clothes.

Male clothes are cut WAAAY larger than female clothes. Though they call men's t-shirts "unisex". You could fit 3 of me in a XL-sized men's. They go down to my knees, the sleeves down passed my elbows. Even if I had B cups no one would have known.

Link to comment
Guest Zack L

I definitely agree that confidence and attitude make you pass better. I've been working on being more relaxed, among other things, and I seem to be passing more each day. ^^ If I was a naturally assertive and confident person I bet I'd have it in the bag already. =3

On a completely other note, I wish real life was like a musical. ^^ Seriously, it'd be so epic. =D

Link to comment
Guest Zabrak

I'm happy with myself, yes, and I wont change how I act for anyone. However, I think gestures do help pre-T aslong as you don't obsess constantly and let the idea that you NEED to 'act' take over your life. So, it is good and healthy to a certain extent.

Link to comment
On a completely other note, I wish real life was like a musical. ^^ Seriously, it'd be so epic. =D

It isn't? :o

Well that certainly explains the odd looks I get when I dance down the middle of the street singing, "Good Old Reliable Nathan, Nathan Detroit!" :D

That's from "Guys and Dolls", he ran "The oldest established, permanent, floating crap game in New York."

Love ya,

Singing Sally

PS I don't need masculine gestures anymore!

Link to comment
Guest Zabrak
It isn't? :o

Well that certainly explains the odd looks I get when I dance down the middle of the street singing, "Good Old Reliable Nathan, Nathan Detroit!" :D

That's from "Guys and Dolls", he ran "The oldest established, permanent, floating crap game in New York."

LOL

Link to comment
Guest Quinn
But I have to agree with Cody and Evan. When you have no other means of passing, mannerisms can do a lot for a person. Until one passes physically, mannerisms help out.

Add me to the list of people who agree with this.

That's what I've been telling my friends and stuff. Right now, I pass maybe a third of the time. I'm 17, 5'2, have girlish weight in my hips and thighs, and have a voice that although it's lowish for a girl is still high for a guy. So right now when I am around others, it's still up in the air lookwise and voicewise whether they think I'm a guy or not - thus mannerisms are brought into play. They can serve as a deciding factor if someone is on the fence about thinking you're a guy or not.

Now. Once I've taken T for a good long time, my voice is lower, and I can grow some facial hair, thus being physically and vocally almost unmistakeably male, then I won't have to rely on mannerisms so much. Until then, they are pretty important to learn, even though I still let myself mix in whatever feels right for me.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Who's Online   2 Members, 0 Anonymous, 247 Guests (See full list)

    • Betty K
    • VickySGV
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      80.8k
    • Total Posts
      769.9k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      12,085
    • Most Online
      8,356

    blakethetiredracc00n
    Newest Member
    blakethetiredracc00n
    Joined
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. FullyHart
      FullyHart
    2. MariPosa
      MariPosa
      (65 years old)
    3. pechenezhka
      pechenezhka
      (17 years old)
    4. Rubycd
      Rubycd
      (59 years old)
    5. Yana
      Yana
      (31 years old)
  • Posts

    • VickySGV
      He has also vowed to NOT ACCEPT the election results even if they  clearly show he lost.
    • Carolyn Marie
      https://watermarkonline.com/2024/05/13/trump-vows-to-reverse-transgender-student-protections-on-day-one/     Carolyn Marie
    • Carolyn Marie
      https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/mississippi-reeves-transgender-bathroom-ban-public-schools-rcna152036     As in every such case, who will check birth certificates at the restroom doors?  This law will not, and can not, stand.  We'll see you in court, governor.   Carolyn Marie
    • Carolyn Marie
      I've been looking forward to the legitimate medical groups coming out strongly against Cass' biased and one sided report, so I'm really glad to see the article you posted, @Davie.  Unfortunately, it won't get nearly the coverage that Cass has gotten.  She has done her dirty work.  Hopefully the pushback and investigative reports on her and her support network will result in her work being shown for what it is.  She is a fraud, and sooner or later all frauds are found out.   Carolyn Marie
    • KayC
      CONGRATULATIONS, Jessica!!  That's really BIG! I myself did not experience a huge emotional roller coaster.  It was more like a smooth slide into emotional comfort.  The biggest effect I felt is when my Dr put me on T-blockers first.  I felt a bit 'empty' for a couple of months, but then realized it was just because the 'T-monster' was no longer running around inside of me.  Then I felt it was my new 'normal'. I feel like the estradiol was the 'frosting' on my transition affirmation.  It's been only positives.  I do cry a lot more, but it's only because I finally feel free to allow my emotions to come out.  To me it's not 'hormonal' ... it's FREEDOM!   Everybody is different but it sounds like you are under great care.  I hope you have a beautiful first year in transition on HRT (keep us updated if you can).
    • Desert Fox
      Yeah, whatever happened to “good morning”?  I think “hey you” can also work to address people without offense…”you” can be single or plural so that works for any gender, non binary, or any group of people, and can be pleasantly offensive or neutral.   And I am very familiar with the experience of being “ma’amed” while in boy mode, particularly on the phone by customer support people located outside north America for some reason. 
    • KayC
      I'm hoping this election cycle might finally cause 'that' party to pay a price for such nonsense.
    • Desert Fox
      So nice to hear things are going well for you. Support is huge and that is especially great when it comes from your SO as well as your family and son. I think being happy with one’s own life’s direction can set the stage for not only other successes but attract others who are in alignment with one’s own ideals. it sounds like you are definitely on a positive trajectory!
    • Desert Fox
      There is some progress being made, some positive awakening from those who understand the difference between biology and the societal roles and rules that have been created by humans to separate, restrict and control other humans. Unfortunately so many people are still set in one way of thinking about gender, whether it benefits them directly to do so or they just fail to think about things for themselves for whatever reason, and they often cite religious or other historical sources to try to back up their argument, sources which typically could be open to various interpretations.   Pushing boundaries is what makes progress and it’s what we are meant to do…but most everyone that has pushed a boundary also gets pushback. Most everyone who has disagreed with conventional thought is called a fool or worse; those who invent something get ridiculed and laughed out, then their ideas are stolen for someone else’s profit. We suffer tremendously to push boundaries but ultimately it’s what society needs to evolve.
    • Ashley0616
      Goodness! You sure have been busy! That's really crappy of what your oldest pulled. That part about the talking about getting asked if it's an enhancement was funny. I guess your boss is going to miss you and just has a funny way of showing it? 
    • Desert Fox
      I read this thread with great interest…thank you, Sally for sharing your life in this detail. As I too identify as bigender, I suppose I am also looking for validation of my experience because I don’t know many transgender individuals that stay in a long-term part-time situation. For most, bigender seems to be a temporary step to fill-time transition or it is more of something someone puts on, as in cross dressing or drag. I have always struggled to explain how someone could legitimately have two identities sharing one body, yet that’s basically how it has been for me for my whole life, all the way back to early childhood.    You and I are roughly in the same era, and growing up with gender variance was different than it is nowadays. Some of our experiences were similar, but generally your life went quite differently than mine.   Back in the day, a part-time person was called a transvestite and a full-timer was called a transsexual (often committing to bottom surgery as well), but I’ve really come to dislike the cross dresser/transvestite label because it tends to be associated with those who are fine with being cis, but like to dress in drag for fun or fetish. And that doesn’t describe all part-timers. I would say that I’m actually a transsexual who chose never to transition, and presenting female part-time is how I have coped with lifelong gender dysphoria. I don’t like myself being male, and never did, I simply accept that I am and have lived most of my life that way and just don’t care to put in the effort and money to transition.  I’m naturally a pretty girly male but I have to add hair, makeup and clothing to present female and I also try to “tone down” my girliness in male form. True androgyny never worked for me; I always switched between male and female looks, but at least that allowed me to use public bathrooms without issue.     I’m very curious - did you have a set of people, ie friends, family, coworkers, who only knew you as “male” and another set who knew you as Sally, with only a few (like your wife) knowing both sides? Such was more or less the case with me. 
    • mattie22
      I feel like a fake sometimes I am not really transfeminine WELL UNDER THEAT UMBRALA but whatever i call it. Like i do not deserve it others know ealer than me and did not identify as their gender at birth well It is more like just enough of me did to get by growing up and there were not many other options on what else i could be and when i got older i just found out about the standard trans people feel like they're born in the wrong body and i saw my self as a male so this could not be me even though it did not comply fit me. even though there is a part of me that likes to be seen and treated like a woman and ideally would probably like to live at least 70 percent of my time as one and perhaps the rest as male but what does this make a freak. also, I am around people who do not like people like me and they are family and do not know. this makes me feel even worse. Sometimes I wonder if I m just some gnc male, who is just using this as an escape if I become a woman for real I do not have to deal with all the crap that comes with being a feminine bisexual male. There are so many layers.
    • MaeBe
      I bet you looked every pennies worth of that million! I'm sure, even beyond the courtier's interactions it was a very fun evening.
    • MaeBe
      I haven't been posting much, it's been a bit of a whirlwind: My wife took a job in WA State, meaning we're moving halfway across the country by the end of the Summer. I was told "it would be good if you had a new job by the end of the month", meaning I'm getting laid off at the same time. My eldest snuck booze while we were at our friends' house, had a bad interaction with his anti-depressants, and then had the huevos to lie that he wasn't drunk while accusing us of not trusting him. There's been a lot to process lately.   That said, I got called ma'am for the first time today while out. Twice! I can't stop thinking about it. Later, my dad showed up without plan to watch the Liverpool match and I was way more girled up (see ma'am) than he's ever seen me; hair, makeup, tight top, skinny jeans, and brand new sandals. At one point he pointed at my boob and asked, "is that 'enhancement'?". If you call a t-shirt bra enhancement, I guess? "Nope, that's just me!". Later, my boss came at me all passive-aggressive via chat after hours, too. I'm kind of tired with his -crap-. I won't have a job in two weeks, so it's cool to just assume I'm sabotaging things? K. /eyeroll   It's been an interesting day.
    • Sally Stone
      Post 12   “First Kiss”   It was October 29th, 2003.  My dear friend Willa had purchased tickets for the two of us to attend “Red Hot Halloween,” a public Halloween party held at the Sanctuary in downtown Pittsburgh.  The event was a fund raiser benefitting the Pittsburgh AIDS Task Force.  It was a great cause but it was also the perfect opportunity to let the adventurous side of my feminine persona have a little fun.    My first question to Willa was: “What should I wear?”    “Are you kidding?” She responded.  “This is your opportunity to be the Sally of your dreams.  I suggest you dress to impress.”   My first thought was to dress naughty.  It was Halloween, so it could be the perfect venue for something with an erotic edge to it.  I thought about going as a dominatrix or a naughty French maid.  After we talked about it, and weighed the pros and cons, Willa and I decided against naughty, and instead, chose to wear the fanciest evening gowns we could find.  Willa bought an expensive, silver sequined gown, and matching high-heels just for the event.  Me, on the other hand, I couldn’t justify spending big bucks on an evening gown for a single event, so I took a less expensive route.  It is amazing what you can find on the sale racks at big department stores when you look hard enough.  For a mere 30-dollars, I found a black, sleeveless column gown with matching bolero jacket.  The dress had a slit up the right leg, and it went all the way to my upper thigh, very sexy.  Being a column dress, it was form-fitting, and hugged my curves like a glove.  To complement my dress, I wore black patent high-heel pumps, a long blonde wig, and a set of long red fingernails.  As I recall, it took me three-hours just to do my makeup.  The end result, though, was worth the effort, because I felt like a million bucks.  It’s so obvious, why girls love dressing up – it’s an unbelievable high!   Inside the club it was a sea of bodies and the costumes were amazing.  At one point, I was standing on a balcony that overlooked the dance floor.  I was nursing a cocktail and watching the crowd.  Suddenly, there was a gentleman standing next to me; I didn’t notice his approach.  He told me I looked fabulous and he offered to buy me another drink.  I declined his drink offer, but we struck up a conversation.  Being a little slow, it took me a while to realize he was hitting on me. I never imagined anyone would ever actually be attracted to Sally, which I think contributed to my cluelessness.  So, I was shocked, and initially, a little creeped out as well.  After all, I wasn't into guys, and this was new to me.  As we continued talking, and he kept throwing accolades my way, I went from being uncomfortable to actually being flattered.    The event, being an AIDS fund raiser, had me assuming this guy was hitting on me because he was gay, and he thought I was, as well.  I wanted to set the record straight, so I casually mentioned that I wasn’t gay.  To my amazement, he responded by saying: “neither am I.”  Okay, now what was I supposed to do?  I didn’t want to be rude, but I didn’t want to send the wrong message either.  While I was trying to decide how to tell him I wasn’t interested, he asked if he could kiss me.  Not sure what I was thinking at that moment, I said “okay.”  He kissed me, and as strange as it was, I gave into it, not pulling away or disengaging.  It wasn’t a super passionate kiss, but it was more than a friendly peck on the lips, and I actually enjoyed it.  When we separated; however, I got the sense his passion had cooled.  I could only assume that my response to his kiss sent some kind of message that I wasn’t interested.    Whatever it was he picked up on, it let me off the hook, and I didn’t have to rebuff any further advances.  For this I was grateful, but at the same time, I was actually a little disappointed.  Clearly, I wasn’t going to lead him on, but it was so gratifying to know I had sparked his interest.  Despite his diminished passion, and his obvious realization I wasn’t going to be his girl, he remained the perfect gentleman.  We chatted for a few minutes more, then he gave me the nicest smile.  Again, he commented on how terrific I looked.  Then he added, “maybe I’ll see you later.”    It was hard for me to reconcile how I could have garnered the attention of a man.  In my mind’s eye, I knew my feminine presentation didn’t completely mask my birth sex, so why would a self-proclaimed straight guy actually be interested in me?  Had it been the only time something like this would happen, I would have chalked it up to random chance.  But it wouldn’t be the last time a man would hit on me.  It doesn’t happen often, but it still occurs more than I would have guessed, and I'm always surprised.    I have never asked, but I have always been curious to know my would-be suitor’s motivations.  Were they hitting on me simply because they happened to be fond of trans women, or was their attraction triggered by connecting with my inner woman?  And, however unlikely, did they mistake me for a cis woman?  I guess it really doesn’t matter much one way or the other, because ultimately, I’m not looking for any kind of a relationship.  However, I’d be fibbing if I said I wasn’t at least a little interested in another opportunity to get kissed.   Hugs,   Sally
  • Upcoming Events

Contact TransPulse

TransPulse can be contacted in the following ways:

Email: Click Here.

To report an error on this page.

Legal

Your use of this site is subject to the following rules and policies, whether you have read them or not.

Terms of Use
Privacy Policy
DMCA Policy
Community Rules

Hosting

Upstream hosting for TransPulse provided by QnEZ.

Sponsorship

Special consideration for TransPulse is kindly provided by The Breast Form Store.
×
×
  • Create New...