Repression therapy treatment-alternative treatment of transition

[Guest So-kool]

I feel that I am a typical sufferer of gender dysphoria. The medical field recognizes transition as a mainstream acceptable treatment for gender dysphoria. I have been receiving treatment to transition for quite some time and I do not have any barriers withstanding that would prevent me from living a fulfilling female existence.

When I first started seeking help for my dysphoria I was only aware of that transition was the only method of treatment. But as I went through therapy and read the SOC there is one particular word that makes me wonder about if transition is the only method available? The word I wondered about was the word "decision" .

You may proceed with many of the treatments as described in the SOC provided you make an "informed decision" about your treatment.

Well to me that implies that a choice to be made! Now the question: is that a choice to transition or do nothing? or is that choice to consider treatment by other methods to weigh them versus transition? I think it would be beneficial if the standards of care act would at least List some alternate potentially helpful methods which may exist.

Through my own personal research I have found several roads which lead me to believe that Seeing a psychiatrist and be treated for OCD and depression symptoms may help to regress the severity of the urges ( hopefully back to where it was several years ago for me. )

Crazy as it may sound if you seek treatment for gender dysphoria , all roads will lead to transition. That is just the reality of the medical practice advancements in world we live in today.

I know I always have been and always will be female on the inside. But actually transitioning is not the way I wish to proceed with my life at this time. I will check back in if I do find anything noteworthy from my own personal experience in this "experiment" on myself. I do not expect to find a "cure" for gender dysphoria but for some people like me seeking an alternative to transition I feel there should be more investigation and documentation of other possible methods with which a person can "choose" and continue to live their life comfortably presenting as their birth gender.

As for me I am satisfied in the knowledge that transition will alleviate my own gender dysphoria.

Like many others, a gender transition will have a severe impact on the lives of many who are close to me and I owe it to them to attempt to spare them the pain even if there is one shred of hope that I may be able to live with my affliction in secrecy.

Also, please respond to this if you have personally explored this route. I am interested to know how it went for you.

[Guest Kenna Dixon]

Options may vary according to one's age and stage of life - and the degree to which the dysphoria can be relieved by means and methods short of transition.

I'll turn 73 next week, and other than financial considerations there are no barriers preventing me from going as far as possible. I'm fully out as transgender and I have a completely supportive spouse. But in my heart of hearts, I know that full transition wouldn't be right for me. I'm fortunate not to feel driven in that direction and thus to have the ability to make a decision free of any pressure.

I've done some RLT of my own volition and learned a great deal from it. However, the role in which I now feel most comfortable is as a living example of a person who can be transgender and yet have a "lifestyle" that's not much different from that of others. It's one way I can help to fight against stereotyping and prejudice.

[KathrynJulia]

Each of us Ladies and gentlemen have to make decisions that are right for just us. Gender Dysphoria will affect the desire to transition and are steps to attain peace. We all just want peace and happiness in our lives. If someone acheives peace by just staying on and taking HRT, that is a successful transition to peace. It would have been so much easier and cheaper if I could have stayed at just being treated for Dysphoria with HRT. I did find calm with HRT, but it didn't bring me the peace I craved. To be comfortable in my own body just wasn't there.

I had FFS and augmentation surgery last year and that helped greatly in reducing my anxiety and gender discomfort I still felt living in a male body. In a month, I will undergo Gender Reassignment Surgery because I am a woman who wants to quietly live the rest of her life with my girl friends and enjoying my femininity for that is who I truely am. For someone else, that is more than they can live with. They may not need or want what I need and I completely accept that. They are my brothers and sisters.

I attended the Pride Festival in St Louis this past weekend celebrating who we are. We represented the full spectrum of the LGBT community. For myself, Iam a lesbian transsexual woman and a human being who loves and respects all people's right to be who they are. There's no more hiding in the closet anymore. I'm a proud woman who is happy being me. And I hope that you become the person that you dream of becoming. Kathy

[Drea]

The assertion that "transition is the only option" comes mostly from the community and not the professionals that provide treatment. I am sure there are some therapists who would validate one's decision by saying something along the line of "transition is the only option". Therapists say things all the time to validate which aren't necessarily the final words on the subject. That same therapist if approached by someone saying "well I have this but I don't want to transition would express that sure many experiencing Gender Dysphoria find a place of comfort and peace without transition.

Now since you bring up "repression therapy" which I imagine is a form of reparative therapy, that is generally recognized as not being helpful and even harmful.

Therapy however is a treatment option that works for some, but rather than try to repress one's feeling such therapy would be directed at how to express, and the issues that have come about from things like trying to repress. How to not allow stereotypical expectations to limit you. How to allow the things you wish to express that may be gender non-conforming come out. To even find part time outlets. Things that would far short of a full gender role change "transition".

Some go on hormones and don't transition.

Some have surgeries (including SRS) to alter their body but don't transition.

The standards of car says:

They may not experience their process of identity affirmation as a “transition,” because they never fully embraced the gender role they were assigned at birth or because they actualize their gender identity, role, and expression in a way that does not involve a change from one gender role to another

The word "does not involve"

and

Clients and their families should be supported in making difficult decisions regarding the extent to which clients are allowed to express a gender role that is consistent with their gender identity, as well as the timing of changes in gender role and possible social transition

Note how it says "possible social transition".

...mental health professionals can offer important support to clients throughout all phases of exploration of gender identity, gender expression, and possible transition

Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to patients who do not wish to make a social gender role transition or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so

Clearly the SOC isn't stating transition is the only option.

Of course options available to an individual depend on the individual and how serious their gender dysphoria is and how it impacts them personally. Someone with severe social based dysphoria may only find relief in transitioning while someone with serious body related dysphoria might not be helped at all by social role yet surgical intervention could provide great relief. For many there is need for social role and body modifications. Many others may not need such drastic interventions.

I feel the best outcome is where one addresses their personal needs and not worry about what worked for others for one isn't that other person. I think sometimes the trans community is as bad at projecting its expectations on trans people as general society is about projecting stereotypical gender expectations on men and women and expecting conformance to those stereotypes.

I feel this "transition is the only option mantra" is an over simplification and highlights one of cult like aspect of support. The reducing the problem to a single accepted solution.

[Guest ashleynikole]

I see the "decision" part the same as a major surgery and/or treatment for any other medical condition, like cancer. You must be informed that the treatment could kill you. There is no guarantee that you will be healed or treated and you may consider to experience symptoms of your cancer. You're also making life altering decisions like sterilization and body modifications that can't be reversed easily, but even with cancer, pumping your body full of radiation can physically harm you for life and alter the way your body works.

Some people medically can't transition at all. Hormones cause their body to wig out and surgery's are not possible due to heart condition or allergy to anesthesia. In those cases, the alternatives are the only choices available.

You need to do what is best for you and your family and your situation. The beauty of non-permanent altering methods is that if it doesn't work, you can always try something else. If I get to the end of what I feel needs to be done for me, and I feel the same on the other side of the binary, then I'll be okay with that. At least I'll have more clothing options...lol.

God bless to you and your journey

Ashley

[Guest So-kool]

I have decided I will try to be approved for using Prozac or other drugs similar to try them and see what if any help they may bring.

My wife was suggesting looking into hypnosis but I am skeptical of that I think that a problem of medical proportion should be dealt with by use of medical intervention such as drugs and not so much in the way of mind altering psychotherapeutic methods. Or at least that's what I think for now anyway,

Actually I wish I never even had to learn half of these terms and such because I did not ask for this I had no interest in any medical anything but unfortunately this condition has made me a participant. But yea, I do have a bigger selection of clothes to choose from nowadays, Lol

[Guest HughE]

"So-Kool", in addition to being gender variant, I've got a number of physical markers that are usually seen in people with intersex disorders, and show signs of having a condition called secondary hypogonadism too (which causes biological males to produce abnormally low levels of testosterone. Since figuring all this out in 2011, I've spent quite a lot of time looking at how sexual development takes place in the unborn child, and the kinds of things that can go wrong with it. One surprising thing is that, while we have a sex chromosome (the Y chromosome), it doesn't directly determine which sex you develop as. Instead, the whole process is driven by the presence or absence of hormones produced in the testicles (primarily testosterone and its derivative DHT). All the Y chromosome actually does is make your undifferentiated gonads turn into testicles, it's the hormones produced by those organs that drive all the male development that follows.

By default, a fetus will develop as female, and male development only occurs if there's testosterone present (there's a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which basically proves this to be so). What appears to have happened in my case is that something severely disrupted my endocrine system so that for a few weeks I stopped producing any testosterone, after my genital development had completed but fairly early in the process of "wiring up" the permanent structure of my brain. Other than that, my prenatal development appears to have been no different from any typical male baby. I've got fully masculinised genitals, which shows that there were male-typical levels of testosterone present during the time my genital development took place (basically the first trimester). I score as quite strongly male in most brain sex questionnaires I've tried, I've got no urge to cross dress, and at a conscious level I've always been reasonably comfortable with a male gender presentation too. Nonetheless, there's parts of who I am that aren't male at all. Basically, part of me wants to be a man, but part of me wants to be a woman too. The things I think are female are: hormone control, complex movement and body language, my physical process of arousal and orgasm, and my instinctive behaviour in most social situations. These are all things that are associated with the more evolutionarily ancient parts of the brain (the limbic system, brainstem and cerebellum). Since most development in the unborn child takes place in a kind of evolutionary sequence (starting with the least evolved), that's what makes me think whatever it was must have happened fairly early in the process of building the permanent structure of my brain (something which doesn't start until about 16 weeks after conception).

Basically it looks like I had normal testosterone levels and normal male development during the first and third trimesters, but something went terribly wrong during the second trimester that meant I had a few weeks of very low testosterone, during which I developed as female instead of male. No conventional cause of intersex can do that; they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy. My mother passed away in 2010 so I'm unlikely to ever know for sure what happened, but, given her history of depression, it does look a lot like a drug overdose of some kind (probably contraceptive pills).

To my surprise, I was unable to find any mention in the medical literature about the effects of artificial female hormones on male development, despite the fact that, in adult men at least, female hormone derivatives (estrogens and progestins) are highly effective at suppressing testosterone production. They're the mainstay of MTF transgender HRT after all! Worse, I discovered that estrogens and progestins have, for decades, been used in quite high doses in pregnancies where the mother was though to be at risk of miscarriage or premature birth. There must be literally millions of biologically male people alive today who where exposed before birth to doses of these drugs more than sufficient to shut down testosterone production in an adult man. Most of the exposure tends to happen during the second half of the pregnancy, after genital development has completed and when the main thing going on is brain development.

The earliest of these substances was an artificial estrogen called diethystilbestrol (or DES), that was developed during WW2 and quickly became the treatment of choice for preventing miscarriages. For the last 3 years, I've been trying to find out as much as I can about "DES sons" (who were exposed to DES in the womb), and if what I've seen is any guide, DES is probably the main cause of MTF transsexuality among those born prior to about 1980 (by which time it had largely been withdrawn from use in most countries). If you check out her biography, Laura Amato, the founder of this website, is a DES baby herself.

There's a discussion about DES here on LP, which began in 2010, before I even knew any of this, so it's not just me saying there's a link between DES and transsexuality:

http://forum.lauras-playground.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20727

I had an article published in "Frock" magazine last year, and more recently, a Letter to the Editor about DES and gender in DES Action USA's "Voice" magazine. Unfortunately I haven't yet got the story into the mainstream media though. I'm pretty sure that the link between DES and transsexuality is something that's been known about in certain circles for a long time, but it's been kept quiet to protect the pharmaceutical industry and the good name of medicine. Nonetheless, I figure that if enough trans people know about what happened with DES (and that there are probably other drugs still in use that have similar effects!), the truth will come out.

Anyway, to answer your question. I think gender identity is something that was built into the permanent structure of your brain during the second and third trimesters of your prenatal development. If you had below normal male testosterone during that time and have ended up with a female gender identity as a result, no amount of reparative therapy or anything else can change it now. Trying to suppress the female in you might work in the short tem, but over the long term it's likely to make you unhappy, perhaps even to the point where you have a breakdown. Really it's much better to find some way of expressing your femininity if you can, hopefully in a way that doesn't mess up your life too badly. That doesn't necessarily mean SRS and a full transition, for me just growing my hair out and dancing (and taking hormones to counteract hypogonadism), have been enough.

P.S. If you were exposed to DES (or some similar treatment with synthetic female hormones), it seems to put you at high risk of developing hormone-related problems in middle age (particularly if you have feminine skeletal markers such as female digit ratio, leg to trunk ratio, armspan vs height etc - I think I put a post with a full list of these in that thread about DES). The way this manifests itself is that you lose all your energy and vitality, your sex drive disappears, and you tend to become quite depressed too. Either male or female HRT will fix this.

P.P.S. I've heard a lot of bad things about SSRI antidepressants: they're physically addictive, they cause very high rates of sexual problems such as erectile dysfunction and inability to have orgasms, they've been linked to psychotic episodes and suicides, and they're not even very good at treating depression. I'm not a doctor mind you, and haven't used them myself either, this is just what I've heard.

[Guest Leah1026]

The assertion that "transition is the only option" comes mostly from the community and not the professionals that provide treatment.

I don't know why I keep coming back here, crap like this frustrates me to no end.

Maybe the problem here is semantics.

First, let's make it clear we're talking about transsexual people, not other transgender people.

YES, there are many treatments.

However, the only one that is affirming of a person's gender identity and makes it possible for a normal fulfilled life is transition.

This isn't "the assertion of the community" either, this is the conclusion after a century of doctors and patients trying everything else.

All those other treatments don't affirm a person's gender identity and the dysphoria never goes away.

All drugs do is cover it up a bit, but it always there.

Among other things doctors (and others) tried:

Hormones of our sex as assigned at birth.

Psychotropic drugs

Talk therapy

Aversion therapy

Religion

Prison

Institutionalization

Electroshock therapy

Lobotomies (which turned people into zombies)

Hypnosis

HRT only

And more.

None of them fixes the underlying problem (physical and social dysphoria), none of them.

The only successful treatment is transition.

So go ahead and try those other treatments. IMO you're wasting your time and you are denial of your situation. Those things may help a bit, but they aren't cures. The dysphoria never goes away and in the end it comes down to this choice:

Do I want to continue living as something I'm not for the comfort of others.

OR

Do I want to live my personal truth.

I did the former until I couldn't do it anymore, then did the latter and the last 11 years have been the best of my life. Nothing beats being able to be your true self.

[Guest KimberlyF]

The assertion that "transition is the only option" comes mostly from the community and not the professionals that provide treatment.

None of them fixes the underlying problem (physical and social dysphoria), none of them.

So unless one has extreme physical AND social dysphoria they are not transsexual? They can't have one cause significant distress and impact the ability to function, and and the other be just an annoyance like so many other little annoyances in their life?

[Guest Jennifer T]

Leah, I don't think you and I have ever interacted here. But being on this side of the equation (have not transitioned), a couple issues I have with what you state are:

1. I am not in denial. I know exactly what my issue is and what I can and cannot do about it at the moment.

2. True self. I've reached a place in my life where I abhor catch words and phrases. "I" am my true self. No one else gets to tell me who I am. The 50 years of my life have been lived by me. I became a man to exist. I hid Jennifer to keep her safe. But I am me. Everything about me is me - even the facade I've worn to protect Jennifer.

3. There has to be hope. I have to believe there is some resolution somewhere that will not cost me everything to obtain.

I desire passionately to be the woman I've dreamed of being. But she is now only in my dreams. My life has simply erased whatever physical vestiges that might have allowed Jennifer to be who she is in my heart. And my wife is as much a part of me as I am. Do I give up one part of me that exists and flourishes in the here and now for the other part of me who most likely can never be who she should have been, and crush the hearts of those few people who love me, all for the elusive promise that I will somehow be 'cured'? I've watched this world - it is very unlikely that anyone would ever accept me as a woman. At best they'll see me as transsexual and as some sort of anomaly. Just read the news that Carolyn posts regularly. It reveals how the world sees us.

But either choice I make, I lose something.

Your choices worked for you. I am very very glad they did. And I believe in transition. I believe it is probably the most effective, viable treatment for this mess. But we can't all attain it. That doesn't make us 'in denial'.

I hope none of this sounds offensive. It's not intended to. I just have to speak up occasionally when I feel 'grouped'.

[Charlize]

I think the reason for the discussion here is not so much about the idea of repression therapy as it is about transition as the only solution. I do believe as is our general feeling here at Laura's that there is no hierarchy in dealing with our issues.

Some of us feel great simply dressing every so often or perhaps just feeling we are a different gender within ourselves. The need to transition and the path that may take varies as well. I hope i can see the humanity and needs of my brothers and sisters more than their position in the spectrum.

Transition was something that i only accepted or understood late in life. I tried to forget all of this and may well have died without ever making any big steps in self expression.

I do not believe that any kind of repression therapy would have worked. Purging and self denial were effective at times but at least for me GD always returned and each time seemed to loom bigger and more difficult to put away.

I hope we all can simply find peace within ourselves and in the process not hurt the ones we love and ourselves. At times i can wish i'd been cis but at others i'm happy to be trans. Right now with the song "blowing in the wind" playing as i sit and type i have found that peace and wish it for all my brothers and sisters. Maybe i'm just Pollyanna but that's me today.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Guest Megan_Lynn]

Let me start by saying I HATE being transsexual with a passion. I would give just about anything to be a average ci person regardless of what gender/sex I was. Being a realist I understand its impossible to change the mind to fit the body but one can fix the outside to match the inside.So this is what I have been doing and will continue to keep doing

So many times have I herd the comment I want to be a woman ( mtf). Personally I find this statement as being totally inaccurate. If you are a true transsexual (mtf) you always were a woman in mind. All that needs done would be to fix the outside to match the inside. I pretty much agree with Leah1026 that if one is truly a full blown transsexual nothing less then full transition will stop the dysphoric nightmare. But I also agree with Drea that many who think they may be transsexual are are not but are somewhere in the transgender spectrum and transition may not always be the right thing for them to do.

For myself I tried so so hard to be what society and others thought I should be. Did all the normal guys things walked, talked, ate, interacted ,ect just like a run of the mill average guy. To do this I have to consciously think about what I did and said at all times so it would not ever come out as feminine aka my true inter self. I was empty inside had almost zero joy in anything in life. Any and all accomplishments ment nothing to me. It was not until I finally excepted myself for whom I truly was that my life started to finally get better. Starting hrt helped even more and transition allowed me to finally shed the false person I was and become the true me. For the first time in my over 40 years I feel 95%( 100% will be after grs) whole and complete and happy. While yes I still do some things from the past but I am a complete different person now. Everything about me has changed from how I see the world around me to how I interact to it. When one transitions and becomes their true self the changes physical, mental and emotional are amazing we are talking caterpillar to butterfly. Yes one can and most likely will loose jobs, friends, family, positions, status, marriages ect. I personally paid a huge price for being myself lost all but one of my old friends some family members, male privilege, respect from others, status in society. But one has to also realize every last one of your relationships with people be it friends or family were forged with a made up person and not the real you. So yes while the losses can be great they are losses to a made up persona. The new relationships you will forge after transition are so much better and more for filling. Everyone around you will meet and interact with the real you. The few that do stick around generally will tell you how much better they like the new you over the old. Transition is not the end all fix to have a perfectly happy life but it will take the dysphoric feelings away for good. All your old everyday issue will still be there but you will deal with them in a whole new package.

Jennifer T,

while granted many from the past who knew you from before will have an awful time retraining there minds eyes to see you as the real you. The new people in you life you meet will only see you as you present yourself. On and average day I will be wearing a ball cap , t-shirt, gender neutral jeans and zero makeup of any kind. I am always seen as nothing more or less then you average run of the mill woman. I stand almost 6' tall weight 288 lbs and its been at least 3 plus years since I herd sir/mr in reference to me so yes to new people you will be able to truly live your life as a woman be seen as one and excepted as one. it is possible.

PS. am so sorry for so many I's being used but am only able to type in a first person perspective . This is an issue I have not been able to fix as of yet.

[Guest Jennifer T]

Megan, why the apology for using "so many I's"? The only person any of us can truly speak about with any authority; with any certainty is our own self. Only you can truly know you - your 'true self'. Only you can speak for that person.

[Guest Megan_Lynn]

Megan, why the apology for using "so many I's"? The only person any of us can truly speak about with any authority; with any certainty is our own self. Only you can truly know you - your 'true self'. Only you can speak for that person.

Because I feel it makes me sound like a self serving, self centered, narcissistic, all into myself type person. that is why.This is one of the reasons my post count is so low compared to others.. In person its so rare to ever here me say the word I as am able to relate to others face to face or on the phone. but in type I seem to flake out

[Guest Jennifer T]

I don't personally think speaking of self necessarily equates to self service or narcissistic behavior. It can, but I think more often it doesn't. When we discuss these kinds of issues, the only way to truly relate is through sharing self.

But that's me.

Peace.

[Guest So-kool]

Well I got finished with my first psychiatrist appointment. I went in with the intention that I had strong feelings of wanting to be female but that is just NOT how I wanted to present myself. As we talked about my past and my feelings at certain times of my life, It was almost un-deniable the I have always been a woman inside and portraying a male for friends and family my entire life. I realized I was not living true to my feelings inside, but really? Who could blame me? I wanted my focus to be that I get anxiety and depression and hopefully get some drugs to suppress them. I said : "I want to be happy presenting male so that my wife will want to be with me."

Well even that one sentence spoke volumes. Not only was I considering myself Female but I was not there for a problem I have but a problem my wife has. ! He asked me " Are you doing this for yourself or your wife?" OH. Crap... Im busted either way. so I say "I am doing it for my wife. " That is a huge no-no to a psychiatrist.(I'm sure I get al least two more appointments for that answer alone Lol ) But on the other hand if I said I was wanting to present male for myself? Well, that wasn't going to fly either on account of all the history and thought process I just gave him. Before I left his office I made sure I said : "Ideally I would like to be female and still married to my wife!!!" He says: I knew that within the first five minutes" UGH! Totally blew it ! I wasn't supposed to say THAT AT ALL ! Truth is I am having a hard time building a case to lie and say I want to live as a Male.

So I got home and was talking to my wife and said " If I were to go on as male it would not be for me at all, It would only be for YOU..." She said " YES Well, Then, DO IT FOR ME ! " Keep in mind my wife is a total sweetheart and I have been her man for 17 years up until about a year ago when I finally opened up to her. I would love to stay with her but..... (to be continued)

[Guest So-kool]

Well, now I had my second appointment, I can pretty much say at this point, there is no making "her " go away. as we talked, It actually made more sense to transition than ever before. ugh. I basically already have done soo much of the stuff to make a transition that I am all but there.

funny story along the way, I was in male mode when I went to see him this time and I showed him some pics of my female side and he about hit the floor!

I love doing that to people... just harmless fun but anyway. I am going to have to just grin and bear it and hopefully my wife and I can find a common ground of happiness. Sorry to say my experiment was a short one.... but for me... conclusive. I will probably go to another session or two but I think he wants to focus on my relationship and how it may survive with my Female side in it ! this thread was mainly to explore getting rid of GID but if I find anything of promise I will report back to this thread.

[Guest LizMarie]

You are better off being honest. Lying to your therapist would defeat the reason for having a therapist, wouldn't it?

Congratulations on taking those first steps to be honest with yourself, no matter where this leads (to transition or not). Lying to yourself, doing it for someone else (playing the martyr in your own mind), trying to please someone else and thinking that will make you happy - these are all strategies for personal emotional failure.

[Guest So-kool]

I agree liz, i am finding my own answers little by little.

Unfortunately, hearing someone give me answers isnt always the best way.. What I mean is, I learn things when it is my time to learn them.

Its like skipping to the end of a book : you might know the end result but you may not understand what made it possible.

[Guest LesleyAnne]

There is a reason we all congregate here at Laura's, we try to learn from each other, look for clues, and answers to our own personal happiness, and attempt to deal with our own personal degree of dysphoria. We have to deal with it alone, since we are the only ones that can find that personal peace within... we are all different in that respect.

This is a journey we were (like it our not) destined to take from birth to our death. The journey can end up short for some of us, and long and painful for others. We may never accomplish what we've set out to do which it to end the conflict within for one various reason or another, but we take that journey knowing it will be finite.

So it's really about the journey itself and how we deal with it, and not the destination that we think will solve our woes, which for some of us may not be possible before our time runs out.

So what I'm trying to say is there is no right or wrong here, no one can tell you that their way is the only way. We all have to figure that out for ourselves.

It makes for a very lonely journey but one we must take.

LesleyAnne

The Gunner's Creed

"Yea though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil for I am the meanest S.O.B in the valley"

Edited July 23, 2014 by LesleyAnne
Sp error changed at members req!