Feminists And Transgender Women

[Guest Kenna Dixon]

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

[Charlize]

It is a pity that trans folks also have pressure from these groups as well. I had a dear FTM friend who was shunned by his community when he transitioned. As trans folks we get enough hate from certain parts of the community at large. I know i will never fully share the feminine experience but that is no reason to discriminate against me. I simply want to live as myself just as we all do.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Cyndee]

It's really good to be aware of such things, especially the history here, however there really are better things in life to pursue. Worrying about what others might think, is wasted energy. You can't please everyone, so you might as well please yourself.....

"wave on"....

[Guest April Kristie]

I agree it is good to be aware of another's stance, the violence just seems so pervasive in every corner of society. The article did bring to light that there were changes made over time and that the radfems of the world were lagging behind those changes.

[Drea]

In my view non-trans women face different challenges than trans women. There is some areas of overlap but it would be a fallacy to assert trans women have all the experience and face the same challenges as non-trans women. Similarly non-trans women don't face the same issues as trans women.

Trans women wouldn't want some feminists insisting on being part of trans women's groups and telling them how they should be women and dismissing trans women's concerns cause the trans women had all the benefits of growing up male.telling them how they should be women.

As a woman I also recognize the challenge feminists face with trans women, particularly those who aren't even transitioning to full time living as a woman. Particularly when trans women, who had all the benefits of growing up male, start to tell them how they should do things (I've seen this happen). Cause that is the sort of thing guys are always doing to women. Talking down to them, telling them how they should do things and not listing. Thus it ends up feeling like a guy is invading their space.

In such environments I take the listen lots speak little approach and never try to insert myself into any position of leadership.

[Carolyn Marie]

It's important to recognize that "radfems" are a tiny minority viewpoint within the women's rights movement. I have no idea what percentage of women, or of self-identified feminist women, they represent, but I'm fairly certain its small. So I am not about to make a big issue of the fact that some women don't accept us as "real" women. They are entitled to their opinions. It doesn't effect me.

Reading the article, it did occur to me that many, if not most, of the radfems being discussed must have endured some significant trauma in their lives. My heart goes out to them for whatever they endured. Such is the way that hate is born.

Carolyn Marie

[VickySGV]

Carolyn Marie has stated my basic feelings on this issue. What I decry is the members of TGdom that do pose a physical threat to these people. We have had progress, and while I do accept that the RadFem's have had bad treatment that has lead to their misandry, it is a pity that hatred becomes the sole reason for existence.

[Guest KimberlyF]

The goal as I see it would be to find a middle ground or maybe slowly break down people's objections to certain issues and win them over.

The Radfems make a claim that they don't feel safe in spaces that include Trans women. They feel that they might be attacked, and women have historically been victims of violence all over the world. Instead of perhaps backing off and letting these views slowly drift away, or showing over time that we're different, what do some idiots do?

"Abusive posts proliferated on Twitter and, especially, Tumblr. One read, “/kill/terfs 2K14.” Another suggested, “how about ‘slowly and horrendously murder terfs in saw-like torture machines and contraptions’ 2K14.” A young blogger holding a knife posted a selfie with the caption “Fetch me a terf.” "

Some may question the idea of 'male socialization' for MtFs, but I have been on numerous web boards that were populated with almost exclusively women. They fight. They can say some very hurtful things to each other. I have never seen talk like I've seen referenced here and in other places directed at Radfems.

Will this help the problem, or cause people to dig in their heels?

[Carolyn Marie]

Some may question the idea of 'male socialization' for MtFs, but I have been on numerous web boards that were populated with almost exclusively women. They fight. They can say some very hurtful things to each other. I have never seen talk like I've seen referenced here and in other places directed at Radfems.

Will this help the problem, or cause people to dig in their heels?

Threats of violence help no one's cause, and when people in our community do it, it sets us all back. We (transfolk) are no better and no worse, individually and as a group, than anyone else. We are all members of the human race, and have no claim to moral superiority. I have been the victim of hate and verbal abuse from a member of this community. But the blame goes to the individual who committed the act, not to the community at large.

I don't know any Radical Feminists. If I met one, I would hope she would judge me on the person I am, not on the community I belong to. But it is human nature to do so. But no matter what she thought about me, I would not threaten her or retaliate. That leads to no good end.

Carolyn Marie.

[Guest LizMarie]

TERFs have outed transwomen at work, gotten transwomen fired, and were at the center of the US Medicare ban on SRS for 30+ years. There's a long history there and it began with them, not trans folk. TERFs in Europe now routinely find themselves locked out of convention venues and other facilities as they are increasingly being identified as a hate group.

Here is one single example of the extremes and levels of coordination that TERFs will employ to destroy transwomen.

http://www.transadvocate.com/my-experience-with-mental-health-and-terfs_n_12701.htm

To ignore the history and violence perpetrated against transwomen by the TERF movement is to ignore extremes of bigotry that have actually cost lives.

[Drea]

So if I understand correctly, assuming all facts are accurate, the take away is "that is no big deal that death threats and rape threats are issued because they started it"?

In my view responding to a moral wrong by committing moral wrongs serves nothing more than to escalate a situation. So lets reach back thirty years.. heck 40 years and just perpetuate. It is like religious wars in the middle east that go so far back that both parties are guilty.

I prefer to take the position of moral high ground and not engage in such name calling.

Furthermore I find it quite offensive when trans people engage in the sort of -------- inflammatory labeling BIGOT!!, TERF!!, CIS!! TRANSPHOBE!!! of others and functionally work to destroy the bridges many of us have made to non-trans people of all sorts.

Fighting bias by exhibiting prejudice towards whole groups is not, in my opinion an good way of finding acceptance.

There were always the radical angry name calling voices in the gay community. These people felt they did good, but all it did was further delay acceptance of gays many years and generated resentment and opposition. At least these days there are lots of gay folks who are out, who are positive role models, who have achievements, and those angry voices are largely irrelevant to the average person on the street who knows people in their lives who don't fit that angry radical profile.

There is a large factor of self victimization that occurs within the trans community. Yet there are large portion of trans people who are very successful. How does that happen if the world is so stacked against trans?

I've seen many trans people break out of the bonds of fear, anxiety and beliefs about being a persecuted group no rights, and like a proverbial switch become positive, don't see these barriers anymore, engage in self empowerment, recognize they have plenty of rights and move ahead positively. And the only thing that caused that change was their outlook about themselves.

Most everyone in this world faces challenges trans or not. Most everyone gets rejected for a job at one time in their life or another. Some non-trans people find getting a job next to impossible. The reasons may be different but trans people aren't the only ones with problems. We can choose to dwell on others who do better than us, others who look better, or whatever grass we see on the other side of the fence that looks greener and feel miserable, or we can get about seeking to make ourselves better by whatever means and stop the self victimization. This sort of self victimization causes far more lives than anything a small radical group that most trans people don't even know about.

As I see it, the critics mean nothing to me, why give them power by engaging in actions that gives them ammunition and power? Why slit our own throats by engaging in such low behavior? Who needs that kind of anger?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Carolyn Marie
inappropriate phrase deleted, per Rule #8

[Guest KimberlyF]

Drea makes some good points and mentioned the Middle East which is how this all feels in my head. I think will some side with both factions of the current conflict, and it doesn't matter how either acts, most continue supporting their side.

But many just want them to knock it off. They don't care why it's going on. They don't think one side is good and the other is evil. They're both at fault in different ways for this continuing. And they think this will go on for ever. There has been fighting in the area since we were all little, and most figure it will continue till well after we're gone.

But then we see pics and vids of couples from both sides and think maybe there is hope. Maybe they can just work together and live in peace.

So now here we are. Some people will line up with the feminists and others will line up with transgender women. And a whole lot of people will look at the whole lot, and shake their heads and laugh or think everyone involved are wrong. They won't care who started what, or bother to research the history. Same as the Middle East. There won't be a good side vs. a bad side. It will just be those idiots that are always yelling at each other. There is so much anger from both sides that outsiders for the most part will tune it out.

We have the option to spew anger, and have our voices tuned out or to work with reasonable people with different positions and from different backgrounds and be seen as inspiring. These are the choices that we all get to make every day with so many different experiences. People tune out anger and hate. These are not seen as reasonable starting points for discussion.

[Guest LizMarie]

TERFs have outed transwomen at work, gotten transwomen fired, and were at the center of the US Medicare ban on SRS for 30+ years. There's a long history there and it began with them, not trans folk. TERFs in Europe now routinely find themselves locked out of convention venues and other facilities as they are increasingly being identified as a hate group.

Here is one single example of the extremes and levels of coordination that TERFs will employ to destroy transwomen.

http://www.transadvocate.com/my-experience-with-mental-health-and-terfs_n_12701.htm

To ignore the history and violence perpetrated against transwomen by the TERF movement is to ignore extremes of bigotry that have actually cost lives.

So if I understand correctly, assuming all facts are accurate, the take away is "that is no big deal that death threats and rape threats are issued because they started it"?

I said no such thing, Drea, as my quote demonstrates. I simply stated that to consider the entire picture, one must take into account decades of direct violence to trans folk by trans exclusionary radical feminists. I did not in any way, shape, or form condone what was said by those trans individuals.

KImberly, the vast majority of feminists today are trans-inclusive. The entire point of the article is that trans exclusionary radical feminists are a small and growing smaller bunch. So your alleged lines do not exist. The reality is that most transwomen and most feminists line up together. It is only extremists in either group who are out of touch.

Someone else today, elsewhere, directly compared the TERFs to the WBC. The analogy is apt in numerous ways.

[Guest KimberlyF]

KImberly, the vast majority of feminists today are trans-inclusive. The entire point of the article is that trans exclusionary radical feminists are a small and growing smaller bunch. So your alleged lines do not exist. The reality is that most transwomen and most feminists line up together. It is only extremists in either group who are out of touch.

Someone else today, elsewhere, directly compared the TERFs to the WBC. The analogy is apt in numerous ways.

So, let's take your read on the situation as 100% accurate. What is to be gained by spending ones time and energy being angry at a group that will be gone soon? What percentage should be spent upset at a problem that is taking care of itself, and what percentage on actually trying to find the joy in living? Why not just let them meet and talk and do what they want? It's what I've always suggested for WBC. Ignore the protests. They want attention.

And the other route sometimes leads to hypocritical actions. Like the violent rhetoric which makes one's position look weak and strengthens the resolve of the other side. Or like when the head of WBC died, there were so many calls for people to protest his funeral. So then they're not really against people protesting funerals, just certain people for certain reasons?

We all have the same 24 hour days. And a set number of them. Looking out my window, it is beautiful today. Why would I want to spend even a minute of the day feeding negative thoughts?

[Cyndee]

So, let's take your read on the situation as 100% accurate. What is to be gained by spending ones time and energy being angry at a group that will be gone soon? What percentage should be spent upset at a problem that is taking care of itself, and what percentage on actually trying to find the joy in living? Why not just let them meet and talk and do what they want? It's what I've always suggested for WBC. Ignore the protests. They want attention.

I am breaking my self imposed quaratine in this thread to agree with Kimberly, as she echos my feelings about these matters as I catch up on this thread this morning. There is much common purpose between trans women and feminists. Build those understandings, be part of the solution, not the problem.

The radicals and extremists on all sides are becoming increasingly smaller and out of touch with today's reality. The ones that cry out only want to fuel old fires, let them die. Marginalize haters, that's all there is to it.

Wave on, wave on....

[Guest LizMarie]

KImberly, the vast majority of feminists today are trans-inclusive. The entire point of the article is that trans exclusionary radical feminists are a small and growing smaller bunch. So your alleged lines do not exist. The reality is that most transwomen and most feminists line up together. It is only extremists in either group who are out of touch.

Someone else today, elsewhere, directly compared the TERFs to the WBC. The analogy is apt in numerous ways.

So, let's take your read on the situation as 100% accurate. What is to be gained by spending ones time and energy being angry at a group that will be gone soon? What percentage should be spent upset at a problem that is taking care of itself, and what percentage on actually trying to find the joy in living? Why not just let them meet and talk and do what they want? It's what I've always suggested for WBC. Ignore the protests. They want attention.

And the other route sometimes leads to hypocritical actions. Like the violent rhetoric which makes one's position look weak and strengthens the resolve of the other side. Or like when the head of WBC died, there were so many calls for people to protest his funeral. So then they're not really against people protesting funerals, just certain people for certain reasons?

We all have the same 24 hour days. And a set number of them. Looking out my window, it is beautiful today. Why would I want to spend even a minute of the day feeding negative thoughts?

Kimberly, the TERF named Janice Raymond was directly responsible for the HHS ban on SRS implemented during the Reagan administration. Small groups often hold disproportionate political power simply due to being loud. It is important to counter the lies these people spread because they are directly attempting to counter the examples that people like Drea say they are trying to present to the rest of the world.

Further, tell me, how did being quiet and sitting in the back of the bus work out for blacks from 1865 to 1964? Not so well, did it? Yet by being vocal and by providing positive role models and examples (you need both not just one), black Americans have seen far more progress in the 50 years since the Civil Rights Act passed than in the 99 years before that but after the end of the Civil War. The difference is night and day.

I will state one more thing here. There have been several responses to this article including responses by those targeted by this article (such as Julia Serrano). In those responses no transwoman attacked the TERFs the way the article alleges via anonymous reports. Yet I cannot link those responses here. Why? Because they contain both images and violent, profane rhetoric from TERFs against transwomen. One example is Cathy Brennan holding up a drawing with blood oozing from a crotch labeled "Sorry about your ****." The images and language quoted by these extremists simply are not acceptable here at Laura's so I cannot provide those links here. (Anyone wishing examples of these responses, please PM me. I can provide you links that way.)

That is the sort of language and imagery that these TERFs use against you, Drea, Carolyn, Vicky, me, or anyone who was assigned male at birth and who has subsequently had issues with their gender identity. And particularly you, having had SRS, would be an even more targeted person by these people. I am not suggesting you place yourself in harm's way with them (please don't! you have little ones who need you and these people stalk trans folk!) but that it is important to recognize when a small extremist group wields sufficient political power to cause direct harm to an oppressed minority. And I think it is obvious that the HHS ban on SRS implemented during the Reagan administration has caused harm to trans individuals by making SRS harder to obtain both because private insurers followed the HHS standard and government programs simply denied the medically necessary surgery. And that's just the ban. I could go further into the direct harm against specific individuals but again I could not link the references because the language and imagery used by the TERFs is so vile, violent, and dehumanizing that it is not appropriate here at Laura's.

I understand your argument and I agree that to the greatest extent possible that we try to ignore these people but we cannot ignore them totally, particularly so long as they can hold the ear of some significant subset of politicians. We must be vigilant and counter those actions with facts, honestly, and positive role models.