Hello From An Advisor

[jacob82b]

Hi, my name is Jacob. I am here because I am a teen's advisor at my church. Recently, one of my male youths has decided to come out to me, and has told me that he is transgendered. He has informed me that he has not yet told his parents or friends. I am the only one who knows.

I have come here in seek of guidance about what to do about this issue. My church does not hate the transsexual community, but does not support transition or living life as a transsexual. I do not believe that my church considers this to be any mental disorder. I am fairly certain that the church only considers transsexuality to be a sin. Regardless, I am not sure what the right course of action is. I am not sure whether or not I should tell his parents, or if I should even try to help him through a transition of any kind.

I am going to look at this issue open mindedly and from all sides. I would like to hear your opinions on this matter, and would appreciate any help you can provide. Thank you.

Jacob

[Guest Zabrak]

Hello, I don't have much to say but don't break her trust and tell her parents(this youth of yours is a male wanting to be female, yes?). When she is ready to tell her parents she will. There is no big rush for anyone to know unless she gets suicidal. Suicide is high among transgendered people. One thing that can add to these suicidal thoughts is if someone tells her shes bad and wrong. Please, be caring and careful with her.

[Sally]

Dear Jacob,

First I would like to thank you for seeking advice and help rather than just turning your back on this young individual.

That shows me that you are not only open minded but a very caring individual, that's why she (that would be the proper pronoun here) came to you.

She also has trusted you not to tell her parents, please do not betray that trust, it is so hard for her right now and she needs a confidant.

I am a very religious person myself, many transsexuals are not but a lot are.

Some of our non-religious group are there because of the feelings of guilt that are brought to them by some religious groups.

I'll try to give you the young lady's view point here and what is actually going on.

I would like to tell you the current thoughts as to what trans-sexuality is - the human brain forms very early when the fetus first begins to develop, all begin female until at some point the growth hormone testosterone is increased and according to the chromosomal pattern it remains female or becomes male.

When for whatever reason the amount or timing of this is off,the brain forms in the opposite sea from the rest of the body and that forms a transsexual.

It's sort of an invisible 'club foot', most churches have no problem with correcting a club foot to allow the child a better quality of life, but we are not viewed as having a problem that is considered to be proper to correct - we are expected to go through life with a tremendous inner conflict and just 'stumble along on that club fit forever'.

A lot of the early transsexuals did nothing to help by being angry with God for causing them all of their troubles - I don't feel that way and I never have, but I do not believe that the caring and loving God of my beliefs would ever intend that we all go through our lives suffering with this and not do everything possible to correct it.

As Zabrak told you, the suicide rate is amazingly high, believed to be 31%, it is hard to be exact because that is among 'known' transsexuals, we can't count the 'unexplained' suicides among successful young people and older individuals who never came out.

What he didn't tell you is that a full 50% of all transsexuals have attempted suicide before they are 20 years old, that IS A SIN in anybody's view and knowing the part that some religions play in this statistic is appalling.

A number of the posts that I answer here are from teens that have come out to their parents and instead of any understanding and support have gotten 'religious' arguments that compound there depression and turn their inner conflict into a 'mortal sin' (I don't believe that it is) and turn them to the 'solution' that tis a mortal sin.

Zabrak is a long distance friend of mine, basically my adopted son, we feel that close to each other he is a 20 year old young man that I met here about 6 months ago in the suicide prevention forum where he was saying his good byes, a last ditch effort to find someone who cared before he ended his own young life.

Three of us sat up into the very early hours of the morning sending posts and praying each time for a response, he finally told us that he wouldn't do anything before the next day he would sleep and then decide - when he told us the next day that he decided not to kill himself I can not tell you how happy we all were.

The only thing that had changed for him was that he finally found some people who knew about him and loved him anyway, we are all looking for love and support in our lives- you are too - the difference is we are less likely to find it because of so little education and understand about us.

We are true cross section of society, please do not judge us by what you see on the Jerry Springer Show, or heard from people whispering about us, we are just like you with our bodies and minds mismatched - we can not physically change the structure and activity centers in our brains to conform to our bodies but we can change the body to match the mind.

Here is where religion takes what I consider to be the 'wrong' (That's the only word I can come up with but it seems a bit harsh) path, viewing Hormone therapy and surgery as 'body mutilation' when in fact they are corrective measures and like surgery on a club foot or cleft palate - Tattoos and body piercing are the 'socially acceptable body mutilation'.

As I have fought with this and denied it and felt shame, guilt and despair for 57 years now, I can tell you that transitioning early is the better way to go.

The only 'help' that you need to give her is to be there for her and try to convince her that a therapist who specializes in Gender Identity Disorders is a great idea.

It is not a mental illness, but dealing with all of the pressures and prejudice can take a toll and these wonderful people help to lift that pressure and aid the transsexual in self acceptance.

It took a lot of courage for her to come out to you, it shows how much she respects and trusts you.

from the effort that you have made to come here and try to understand and learn about the condition proves that she made a very good choice.

Bless you Jacob and your young friend,

Sally

[Guest michelle.butterfly]

Hi, my name is Jacob. I am here because I am a teen's advisor at my church. Recently, one of my male youths has decided to come out to me, and has told me that he is transgendered. He has informed me that he has not yet told his parents or friends. I am the only one who knows.

I have come here in seek of guidance about what to do about this issue. My church does not hate the transsexual community, but does not support transition or living life as a transsexual. I do not believe that my church considers this to be any mental disorder. I am fairly certain that the church only considers transsexuality to be a sin. Regardless, I am not sure what the right course of action is. I am not sure whether or not I should tell his parents, or if I should even try to help him through a transition of any kind.

I am going to look at this issue open mindedly and from all sides. I would like to hear your opinions on this matter, and would appreciate any help you can provide. Thank you.

Jacob

Welcome Jacob! (big hugs)

I want to commend you for researching and trying to do the right thing for this teen. She is going to have a hard road ahead with the church and likely her family believing that correcting the physical incongruity with her mind is a sin. I know, because I was her 20 years ago.

I encourage you to read a little about what the possible causes of transsexuality, here's a good start http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu3.htm and there are many other good resources out there. I do believe if you are to help this young lady you are going to have to allow for the possibility that the doctrine of your church is what is in error, rather than the (unchosen) incongruity between her physical and mental sex.

I can tell you from experience that I was raised in a similar church, and my fears of what my family would think were likely a large part of why I didn't start to deal with this until I was 35 years old, and as a result they were denied ever knowing their daughter (me) because I deceived everyone (including myself) and presented them with the son that they wanted. I almost broke mentally (although I was fortunately not one to consider suicide) before the walls I created finally came down and I started to deal with this.

My belief is that my feelings and choices are between me and God, and I am comfortable that I am simply following tha path that has been laid out for me. I know I have no control over the fact that I feel like my body is wrong, or that the hormones that had been coursing through my veins were the opposite of what should have been there. I'm simply taking advantage of the fact that we live in times where these are correctable and I get to live a life where my brain matches up with my body.

My final comment is a a couple of thought experiments for you:

Imagine a person born with XY chromosomes but who nonetheless failed to develop normally due to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, and ended up with female genitalia and was raised as a girl.

1. Would it be a sin to take steps to become male if that's what she decides in the future?

2. Or, alternatively, what if she wishes to remain female; is it a sin for her to do so even though she's genetically male?

There are other thought experiments like this, but it may start to become rapidly become apparent to you that the arguments for comdemning trannsexuality as a sin start to burst at the seams when applied to these situations.

The question is:

Do you choose to take the simple answer that, while you may believe one thing or another, you admit that you can't be inside another person's head, and you can't know whether this type of decision is right for them, it is something to be decided between them and God.

Or, do you come up with some way of justifying the doctrine (which, by the way was created by very fallible humans just like all of us) of forcing those of us who are transsexual by nature to deny the way God made us and live out our lives as a shell that we want others to see.

Ok and one final, final bit of food for thought. (Sorry, I tend to get a bit wordy sometimes. )

If someone does something that he/she has well considered and truly and honestly believes not to be a sin, is it really a sin?

Ok much love to you Jacob,

Michelle

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora Jacob,

I would suggest you have a read of this link http://207.152.67.6/gog/pdf/p313_336.pdf you might also like to read this

http://shb-info.org/hbs.html The first link is about religion and transsexualism and the other is about the medical condition itself...The more you know the less you will fear and the more you will be able to help your friend who truly need your love and understanding...

Metta Jendar

[jacob82b]

Hello, thank you all for your quick replies.

Well, I have spoken with a few of the other advisors about the issue. We were all stumped about what to do. This hasn't happened in my area before. We looked in all of the church manuals, and eventually found our answer. The church does not consider the act of being transgender a sin, but considers the abandonment of the roles and duties of your gender to be one.

I am going to look into this further. Thank you for the links. I am trying to get a complete view of this issue, and thus I am using a broad selection of resources. I believe the only way to find the most unbiased answer is to look at the situation from all angles, so I am looking at both pro-transsexual and anti-transsexual resources. It is an interesting read.

Thank you all again.

Jacob

[Guest Donna Jean]

Jacob said:

The church does not consider the act of being transgender a sin, but considers the abandonment of the roles and duties of your gender to be one.

I have roles and duties of my gender? I have Duties.......?....

Jacob....I'm not ready to approach this right now...

I'll be back with a better post...OK?

I'll think this through....

Donna Jean

[Guest Zabrak]

Roles and duties of genders? Sounds sexist.

Thats all I can really answer this with.

[jacob82b]

I wouldn't call it sexist.

Men are not better than women, and women are not better than men. We just have different roles. Different obligations or duties. Women have a duty to be mothers. Men can never be mothers. We can only be fathers, and thus we have that as one of our duties.

Jacob

[MaryEllen]

Jacob, may I ask what church you are affiliated with?. Also can you quote me book, chapter and verse in the Bible where is says that being transgendered is a sin. Forgive me for being a cynic but I get the feeling that you are going to advise this young person to follow your church policies. To forget this transgender foolishness, so to speak. If you really want to help this young person, give her the name of this website. (Laura's Playground) Let her decide for herself. If you were to break this young persons confidence by telling her parents what this young person has told you in confidence, you, yourself would be committing an unforgivable sin in my opinion.

MaryEllen

BTW We use pronouns as to a persons perceived gender. That's why I refer to this young person as she

[MaryEllen]

Men are not better than women, and women are not better than men. We just have different roles. Different obligations or duties. Women have a duty to be mothers. Men can never be mothers. We can only be fathers, and thus we have that as one of our duties.

Hmmmmm. What are you saying here? That women shouldn't be in the work force earning a wage but rather remain pregnant, barefooted and in the kitchen doing dishes. That men should not be feeding their babies or changing their diapers. My friend, this line of thought may have been true 100 years ago but that's not the way it is today.

Do you really want to help this young person or do you wish to make her conform to your church policies. Some churches would insist that young people who come out as transsexual be sent to a boot camp type for rehabilitation. Such as the Exodus programs. Do you know that a full 50% of young transsexuals who are sent to and graduate from these type of programs go on to commit suicide. Would you want the blood of this young person on your hands?? Think long and hard about the advise you are giving her.

MaryEllen

[Guest Zabrak]

I wouldn't call it sexist.

Men are not better than women, and women are not better than men. We just have different roles. Different obligations or duties. Women have a duty to be mothers. Men can never be mothers. We can only be fathers, and thus we have that as one of our duties.

Jacob

So your bible says people HAVE to have children? Because if this youth doesn't want children then that 'rule' doesn't come in play.

I'm curious as to what else you think should apply to her(your youth).

[Sally]

I am going to look into this further.

I don't know that you should really bother with anymore research as it seems that you are not really that interested in view points other than those that match your group of advisers.

You had stated at the beginning that you were going to look into this with an open mind, but all of the following posts show no real tendency in that direction.

So continue to hunt and find people who agree with you and try to cure her, but if you do - please give her this website so that we can try to prevent her suicide.

MaryEllen was not exaggerating, the number is probably actually higher because this is among known transsexuals there are thousands of totally unexplained teen suicides each year - there is no telling how many of those are transgendered and killing themselves rather than talking to the people who should be trying to save them.

The doctrine of the church was written long ago and by people who had no idea of what transgender is!

I would suggest that following these guidelines would be like going to the town barber to be bled by leaches if you are sick - they are from similar time periods.

I never thought of the main purpose of religion as being to drive people to Atheism, but some of the things that I have heard said in regards to transgender and transsexuality make me wonder how I can stay a Christian - and then I remember, To be a Christian I only have to believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ (by the way that is the correct manner of address - the Christ is a title not a last name!) and not you or anyone else who has decided to interpret them for me.

I have no fear of retribution from my Lord and Savior, he is the God of love, forgiveness and grace.

There is none so blind as he that will not see.

As long as you're just looking for those that agree with you, try Doctor Phil he likes to yell at people and tell them that they are sick as a way of therapy.

Saddened and disappointed,

Sally

[Guest mia 1]

Really the old testament book of Leviticus says stone to death any man wearing women's clothes..that is why so many of us in the Jewish Community who consider ourselves to be part of th culture and also people of faith don't attend sabbath services.....and that's the straight community I'm talking about....how many transgendered Jews do you think attend services try ZERO........

[Guest julia_d]

All that stuff about a man wearing womens clothing and vice versa.. is about the different roles of men and women in warfare 2000+ years ago.

Like desertion wearing womens clothing (a disguise) to avoid being dragged into the army of the king was seen as a crime (desertion in effect) and the punishment was the same as running from the enemy.. and was until the 1950's ..

As women were seen by most cultures at the time, and well into the 20th century.. as non combatants.. it was a taboo to have them fighting and being killed. (the viking culture and most of northern europe back to at least the iron age had warrior women.. and famous warrior queens even.. completely different from the middle eastern view)

That's what all this "wearing the wrong clothes" nonsense comes from.. Over the years of human translation and copying (and meddling) with the bible certain cultural taboos and royal commands have become changed from "crime" to "sin" .. In the century when we have thrown off these out dated gender roles it makes me laugh that "religion" will stick blindly to something which is obviously so untrue.. taking the literal words instead of looking at the real intent of the "rules" in a historical context... The military generally still are stuck with some of this hangover.. it's fine to transition.. so long as you leave before you do.. this century should see some interesting litigation that point XD

I was going to make a few logical points about daring to speak for god.. and the conceit of "knowing the mind" of god..and wrapping it all up in confusion and logic.. but I think that will be better handled by the "advisors" .. or should we say the unquestioning brainwashers

[Guest mia 1]

Well Jacob hope you read Julia"s reply that should take care of the nonsense of sin and making the next generation as guilt ridden as the previous 2500 or so.... Thank You Julia well stated and staying logical good job...Mia

[Guest Cody_T]

Hello, thank you all for your quick replies.

Well, I have spoken with a few of the other advisors about the issue. We were all stumped about what to do. This hasn't happened in my area before. We looked in all of the church manuals, and eventually found our answer. The church does not consider the act of being transgender a sin, but considers the abandonment of the roles and duties of your gender to be one.

I am going to look into this further. Thank you for the links. I am trying to get a complete view of this issue, and thus I am using a broad selection of resources. I believe the only way to find the most unbiased answer is to look at the situation from all angles, so I am looking at both pro-transsexual and anti-transsexual resources. It is an interesting read.

Thank you all again.

Jacob

This sounds like the basic "homosexuals are just dandy... until they try to be true to themselves" argument. (yes, I paraphrase... because not everyone can see the true meaning in the original words). I do commend you guys on adapting it for another situation though. That took some imagination.

I know that for you, the church is probably a huge part of your life, and I'm not going to hold that against you; I had my uber religious period once upon a time. (this time is no longer spoken of, for various reasons). This doesn't mean that you can't adjust to the situation though. Basically, what you have here is a scared, lost little girl. And you can either help her, or you can hide behind these manuals. I can tell you that if you do help her, no God in his right mind would condemn you. If you condemn her, I'm going to assume that you'll have to answer to Him. Jesus, when he was on earth, approached plenty of people who were considered unworthy by people of the day, considered to be sinners and the like. Simply man is fallible, and when a situation like this comes up, you have to err on the side of love. That's what God or Jesus would do.

I also have to say, there's no way you're getting an unbiased view of transsexuality. It just doesn't exist. Basically, you have a decision to make, and that's between supporting her and not supporting her. Almost no amount of information is going to help you there, because if you believe what anyone says, you're going to be led astray. Although I would say, objectively, that this is the best site to be getting information and that the suicide rate is, if not dead accurate, at least extremely close. To understand this, just look at it from the standpoint that this girl really needs your help. That's all you need to know; the decision to support her or not is simply the decision whether or not to help someone in need.

Not to scare/threaten/whatever you, but you do have to ask yourself if you want a little girl's blood on your hands. Quite simply, transgender/transsexual issues are almost always a matter of life and death. Ask yourself what a loving God would prefer you to do.

[jacob82b]

No, I don't think that women should remain barefoot doing dishes all their lives. I believe they should pursue a good education just like everyone should. But women do have a duty to be mothers, and I believe that they should fulfill this duty at some point in their lives.

I, nor any of the other advisors will be advising Tim (name changed) to go to any sort of camp. I don't know what can be gained from going to a camp like this. Also, from what I am reading, Exodus is not a safe place to go anyway.

I believe I am looking into this with an open mind. If my mind wasn't open to the possibilities, I would not have come here. I do want your help in trying to understand what is going on, and what to do. Someone has mentioned a gender therapist, but I am not sure how Tim would be able to see this kind of therapist without his parent's knowing about it.

The rules written in Leviticus were part of the Law of Moses which was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus. Thus, it no longer applies. I do not consider it sinful for a male to wear women's clothes. I don't think many people at my church believe that it is sinful either.

Julia, am I one of the "unquestioning brainwashers"? I don't like to think of myself as a brainwasher. I'm not even sure how I brainwash, if I even do. Anyway, I don't know the mind of God, and I most likely will not for a very long time. I am simply trying to do the best I can do.

I do sincerely want to help Tim. Hopefully, he will never come close to being suicidal. And if he does, I will do all I can to stop and help him. That is what I am supposed to do. As I said earlier, it is the act of abandonment that is the sin. If Tim is truly a girl, then I suppose a transition to a female body would be the right thing for her. But if Tim is really just a male wanting to be a girl, then it would be wrong and sinful for such a transition.

Jacob

[Guest michelle.butterfly]

Thank you Jacob for coming back. I was very sad that the response here would have turned you away from us. This is a very sensitive topic for us (as you might imagine) and it's sometimes hard to maintain a friendly attitude when one feels attacked.

If Tim is truly a girl, then I suppose a transition to a female body would be the right thing for her.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here; except, I am afraid that your church doctrine may not even allow for this as a possibility. There are those who have made mistakes and transitionted to a female body only to realize it was indeed not the right path for them, however, I am afraid those cases are over-emphasized and the cases like those of us who have been saved (our minds, and our lives!) through such a transition minimized, both by our society and by several demoninations of which I am aware.

I do see that you are truly willing to consider, and I think you are brave for doing so, as I know it may not be looked upon favorably by those in your church that have higher positions of authority. Please just remember that sometimes doing the right thing involves persecution, even to the point of being ostracized by those in whom you have trusted the most. I have this feeling that you were placed where you are right now because God saw you were the right one to be there, and I'm so happy that you are really examining the issue instead of just making a call without having looked at the evidence; please just make sure you are listening to God and not your fears or your superiors, and I'm sure you will make the right call whatever it may be.

Best wishes for you Jacob, and for your teen.

With great love,

Michelle

[MaryEllen]

Hello Jacob,

I believe that you truly do want to help Tim. Our concern is, what kind of help are you going to give her. If Tim is transsexual, this is something that she will have known for most of her conscious memory. If this is something she has only recently thought about, then perhaps she might be developing crossdressing tendencies. This is something that you and I cannot make a diagnosis on. Only a trained therapist could do that. If Tim is a minor under the age of 18, then her parents would have to be in on this. I could be wrong on this, though. It would benefit Tim greatly if she could join this site so she could have interaction with her peers. We have many teens here who are going through the same things that Tim is going through. She could ask questions of those who've been there and done that. Please consider telling Tim about this site. I really believe that we can help her find answers to questions that she needs to know.

You'll have to forgive us if we seem a little hostile. We've had some pretty bad experiences with a few religious factions.

Respectfully,

MaryEllen

[Guest michelle.butterfly]

This is something that you and I cannot make a diagnosis on. Only a trained therapist could do that.

Yes, this is a good point, a trained gender therapist is necessary in cases like these.

It would benefit Tim greatly if he could join this site so he could have interaction with his peers. We have many teens here who are going through the same things that Tim is going through. He could ask questions of those who've been there and done that. Please consider telling Tim about this site. I really believe that we can help her find answers to questions that she needs to know.

Also a very good point, it's a process of discovery and having people that have been in similar situations to talk to is very helpful in being able to discover for yourself where you lie on the gender spectrum.

You'll have to forgive us if we seem a little hostile. We've had some pretty bad experiences with a few religious factions.

Yeah, it's certainly nothing against you Jacob, you are one of the few that would even bother coming here.

Much love,

Michelle

[Sally]

No, I don't think that women should remain barefoot doing dishes all their lives. I believe they should pursue a good education just like everyone should. But women do have a duty to be mothers, and I believe that they should fulfill this duty at some point in their lives.

Then any woman born barren should just as well be put to death for being unable to full thier main duty? Flawed logic, try again.

I, nor any of the other advisors will be advising Tim (name changed) to go to any sort of camp. I don't know what can be gained from going to a camp like this. Also, from what I am reading, Exodus is not a safe place to go anyway.

Well I'm glad that you have gotten that right, it isn't!

I believe I am looking into this with an open mind. If my mind wasn't open to the possibilities, I would not have come here. I do want your help in trying to understand what is going on, and what to do. Someone has mentioned a gender therapist, but I am not sure how Tim would be able to see this kind of therapist without his parent's knowing about it.

OK, I am sorry if I offened you but your responses sounded way too much like what we hear from everyone that is just putting on a show about trying to understand and then being able to say, "Well I researched it and you are just wrong." To help you understand my point of view, my mother is one of the 'I can talk you out of this' group.

The rules written in Leviticus were part of the Law of Moses which was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus. Thus, it no longer applies. I do not consider it sinful for a male to wear women's clothes. I don't think many people at my church believe that it is sinful either.

I am afraid that you are a bit naive in regards to the views of your church members, most people are for some reason more afraid of transgendered than they are of muggers - why? I have no idea other than ignorance breeds fear and contemptment. Your church obviously has had no lessons on this topic or you wouldn't have come here for help.

Julia, am I one of the "unquestioning brainwashers"? I don't like to think of myself as a brainwasher. I'm not even sure how I brainwash, if I even do. Anyway, I don't know the mind of God, and I most likely will not for a very long time. I am simply trying to do the best I can do.

None of us can know the mind of God, we should not even try - just do the best we can to help everyone that we can to lead a full and meaningful life. I believe that you are really trying to do this, but I always believe the best about people - I hope that you really do care for Tim and are trying to help.

I do sincerely want to help Tim. Hopefully, he will never come close to being suicidal. And if he does, I will do all I can to stop and help him. That is what I am supposed to do. As I said earlier, it is the act of abandonment that is the sin. If Tim is truly a girl, then I suppose a transition to a female body would be the right thing for her. But if Tim is really just a male wanting to be a girl, then it would be wrong and sinful for such a transition.

Your real problem now is getting Tim a therapist who is trained in Gender Identity Dysforia, if Tim is transgendered or not. My guess, and that is all that it is, Tim is most likely transgendered or would not have taken the chance of confiding in you or anyone knowing that the parents are most likely against it.

Jacob

I wish you luck and pray for you to come to a fair and proper solution for Tim's issues. You have been placed in a difficult position for any caring, loving individual. The price for a mistake are very high. In your mind if you help Tim to transition and fight for Tim against the Church and the parents then if Tim just 'wants to be a girl' you have aided in the commission of what you feel is a sin - that's a high price for both of you, but if you talk Tim into believing that this is not the case, just live as a man - you have to pray that Tim will not become just another suicide statistic but will have to live with yourself for knowing that every minute of Tim's life is diminished by the ever present and smothering feelings of being in the wrong body and having to 'act' like somebody else because the real you is somehow an abomination to everyone.

I hope and pray that you are a strong enough man to shoulder this awesome responsibility that Tim has placed upon you. Tim has seen something in you that causes the belief that you are the right one - I hope Tim has read you correctly. As with knowing the mind of God, only time will tell and your decision must be made fairly soon.

I will pray for you and Tim (God knows the real name) and I pray that you will find the right answer and the strength and determination to follow it through if the right decision is not the popular one in your church.

So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)

Sally

[Guest Zabrak]

Sally already beat me to it - but I wanted to say the same. Your god tells you if any man/woman are born unable to have children they are sinners? Thats the most flawed logic I've ever heard. *keeps his temper down his best*

Sorry for anyone who seems to attack you but this board supports all kinds of opinions - just not anything too far or attacking.

[jacob82b]

Oh no, being born without the ability to create children is not a sin! I didn't mean to say that!

Genesis 1:28 and 9:1 both give us the commandment to have children:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

So if you are able, you do have a duty to have children. But if you cannot, well, then you just can't. You won't be put to death, Sally!

Jacob

[Guest mia 1]

Thanks for posting Jacob,, I see you truly want a dialog, but your life is based on traditional dogmatic Christianity,,try to expand your horizons.

I had a talk with my wife's pastor and explained that Jesus is not the only "WAY Truth and Light of the World" his answer was "If that's the case my life is wasted" Not really you are in the business of bringing hope if you bring hope through Christ and other people bring hope through the Prophet or through the Buddha what is wrong with that....

Give Tim the choices and open and free choices not just "I'm here to help her not commit suicide,,transitioning isn't always fun but it doesn't border between despair and death either so lighten up and look at alternative views and philosophizes and even other theological POV's.

Thanks for coming here you are a good listener......Mia