Hello From An Advisor

[Sally]

As for the update on Tim, I did speak with him today. We discussed his feelings again, and I brought up the idea of a therapist and interaction with other transgendered people. He said is a nervous about talking about this to other people, but I told him we could try to work on overcoming that. My goal is to try to build up enough courage so that he can tell his parents.

Thanks for everything.

Jacob

Dear Jacob,

Thank you so much.

Through all of the things that have been said and all of the lengthy posts you have taken care of the two most important issues.

You have given Tim some information on getting into some therapy and possibly interacting with other transgendered people - you could give this website as a place to talk without divulging any identity.

And you have given Tim the choice in when to tell the parent's.

For anything that anyone has said to you before, these were the two most important issues, at least in my mind, for Tim's well being.

You have been very patient and forgiving to a lot of people who have for very personal reasons and experiences have not necessarily been kind to you.

It just might be that for all of any of our suspicions and paranoia that Tim made a very good choice in talking to you.

Bless you and Tim,

Sally

[Guest CharliTo]

As for the update on Tim, I did speak with him today. We discussed his feelings again, and I brought up the idea of a therapist and interaction with other transgendered people. He said is a nervous about talking about this to other people, but I told him we could try to work on overcoming that. My goal is to try to build up enough courage so that he can tell his parents.

Thanks for everything.

Jacob

Tell him I was like that too where I was reaaaa-a-a-ally afraid...but he will become a better person when he can face it and move forward It's totally what I (and I'm sure many other) have experienced...years ago.

Also, it's probably a long term thing...so please try to look at it in a long term sense of thing. It took me about... 7 months after telling my friend to finally tell my mother. It's not suprising for it to take longer... deep down, most people understand that this is not something to take lightly...and are afraid of the consequences. I was really really really afraid myself...and in fact, before I came out to my family, I did few things: 1. Make sure I had a place to stay just in case things fell out... 2. Have resources that they can look at on their own time... (such as this site...or books that can be found in amazon.com like "True Selves" and such) 3. Made sure I thought out how I should say it and how I should respond.

There's many other things to factor...which in my sleepiness right now... I can't seem to remember, but the above is the main things I tried to make sure I had...

Either way. Thank you for not jumping the gun and telling the parents. Good luck with Tim... it might be a long term thing, but when you see the confidence and self-esteem in Tim grow... I'd think I wouldn't have to say much on how rewarding that can be...

Charlene

[Sally]

Our goals were to keep Tim from being outed before being ready and to get Tim to a therapist.

He has agreed to these two most important issues and has started to work with Tim in the area of self confidence - you all know about that problem.

Let's give Jacob a chance to help Tim, he seems to have gotten the message about not telling the parents before Tim is ready and the importance of the therapist.

Everyone, thank you for your interest in Tim's well being - but next time if something like this happens, let's all try to be a little calmer and a little less emotional and attacking in our responses.

We could very well have chased Jacob away without his ever understanding the importance of the main issues.

I said we because I was less than kind as well until I realized that we, myself included, were really attacking his religion and not just answering his questions.

We can not go back and change how we behaved (We could edit all of our posts and make us look good - but we shouldn't) but we can learn from our experience and try to be a bit more objective when talking to people who are not transgendered.

Thank you all, we did manage to get our point across but not without the help of a very patient individual on the other side of the screen.

Sally

[Guest]

Hello, Laura. First, I would like to thank you for this site. There is no doubt that it has been useful for many people, including myself, and more importantly, Tim. I think you may have misunderstood me, and may have some false impressions or ideas. I am sorry if I offended you, and it appears like I did from the tone and subject of your replies.

I am not here to cause any harm. I am definitely not trying to perform any criminal activity. I am not here to give death or rape threats. I am here for Tim, and I am certainly not planning on advising him or his parents to send him to this Exodus place.

You mentioned that I have used Bible verses as this other criminal group has used. The only verses I used here were the ones about how we have been commanded to have children. I am not sure how this group has used these verses, but I am certainly not part of this group.

I do not consider transsexuality to be a religious issue. I am not sure if it is a mental issue, because I am hearing that it is and that it is not. Therefore, I am confused. I do not consider it a religious issue, but transitioning when it is not needed is improper. I do not believe that Tim needs counseling from a minister or other religious authority. I do not consider myself to be a therapist, and I do not believe that I can guide him in the proper form.

I believe Tim needs a therapist specialized in this area. These are my two goals: to get Tim to a therapist, and to let his parents know. I am not specialized in the area of gender, and I am not responsible for raising him. You asked me what Jesus would do, and I believe that He would tell Tim's parents. I do not believe that Jesus keeps secrets. But I am putting telling his parents on hold.

I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions about myself. I am certainly not against you or this community.

As for the update on Tim, I did speak with him today. We discussed his feelings again, and I brought up the idea of a therapist and interaction with other transgendered people. He said is a nervous about talking about this to other people, but I told him we could try to work on overcoming that. My goal is to try to build up enough courage so that he can tell his parents.

Thanks for everything.

Jacob

Thanks Jacob. I do respect your beliefs. The reason we always recommend therapy is because it works more often than not from our feedback. Our therapist list is generated from user comments. If they don't use the Wpath transgender Standards of Care they don't make the list. The risk factor with therapy is low and often beneficial. It is also helpful in determing whether genital surgery is the right option as it isn't the right choice for everyone. If therapy didn't work for most of our users we wouldn't be recommending it. Therapy does two things. It helps those who are confused about their classification and gets them diagnosed properly. Treatments for transgenderists and transsexuals are very different. It's living the role vs surgery. Second it clears mental clutter from the trauma of being forced to live ones life as someone other than their true selves. Before transition can be considered candidates have to be mentally healthy. In some cases medication controls are needed. If transition is warranted the therapist acts as a guide raising the chances of success. In addition people with therapists seem to be slightly less suicidal. This combined with the support they receive here helps them and turns their lives around.

As a minister it's important to understand human nature, psychology and peoples passions. Some use inflamatory verses to stir up, hatred, discrimination, homophobia and transphobia. When people are called "Abominations" it stirs up lynch mob mentality, especially if in the same book it advocates stoning sinners for minor infractions like sitting on the marital bed if your wife is cycling. As an example in some Islamic countries like Iran you can literally get lynched for being Gay. Killing people IN "God's NAme", now that's an abomination. In fact you can directly trace some hate crimes directly back to someone's pulpit like Fred Phelps. Disturbingly some are quite proud of this as they are doing it in "Jesus' Name". When I receive death threats well over half use biblical verse with words like abomination, lynching, rape, murder threatening to totally destroy me. How Christ-like is that? One was actually from a minister with his own famous website. Unfortunately some of this discrimination and hatred has crept into our laws against LGBT people. There are organizations that exist to deny us our rights to live in peace through fear-mongering. Fortunately not all religious groups do this and some do accept us. Ironically you'll find most here are deeply spiritual even though some have been victims of their own religions. This is why some are so skepticle here. Who can blame them. Even so there is a great deal of tolerance and respect here for all beliefs. That doesn't happen everywhere and i am extremly proud of our members here.

Most basic relgions are based on love. However sometimes that message gets lost. Would Jesus preach Fred Phelps message of hatred for LGBT people? I don't think so. In fact Fred never used the "Love" word. To me if LGBT people want to see changes in peoples attitudes it starts in the pulpit. Some messages make me remember old movies where the incited crowds storm the church to get the "Hunchback of Notre Dame or Frankensteins castle or putting witches to death. The crowds carry torchs, hammers cycles and ropes. Ah, but this doesn't happen today though we say. Yet do an anti LGBT search or anti-gay and you'll find thousands of sites that advocate exactly that. I am sure Jacob that you are not part of that group.

As this thread is very educational i will keep it open. It may help others with the same issues. Usually this site is only for Transgender people and their families. However you have one of our own in your charge

And seem concerned. I've also received many emails on this topic in the past so it needs to be addressed as many others have been in this situation. I believe that this thread goes a long way in promoting understanding and dispelling myths. If it stops one minister from spewing hate in the pulpit it will be worth it. I do realize that you don't do that. Most people mean well, they just don't understand the other side. Hopefully this will correct it. I do think though that others have to take responsibility about the messages they give out every Sunday. Love, not hate.

As an alternative to telling parents before being ready I suggest that they be told he is depressed and needs a therapist. This is likley the case anyway. The therapist will then help guide the teen and help explain being transgender to parents and the options available. IN some cases this is safer. In addition please read the teen forums to see the stories of those who came out to parents. Some will surprise you. Some are supportive and others are not. In some cases there have been abuses.

Laura

[Guest Jackson]

Well, Jacob, I just want to say that I hope that everything goes well whatever is decided. I am not the most religious person. But I always try to keep an open mind. And I always try to remember what the Blues Brothers said: The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Good luck.

[Guest]

One of the roles of an advisor is to get people the best help available. Ministers, school counsleors and even suicide hotline operators do a great job for the average person and are for the most part responsible. However when it comes to gay or transgender people though too often the personal feelings of the advisor often prevent them from getting them the proper help that they need. These people trust these advisors and are at their most vulnerable. Many are at high risk for suicide and too often they are pushed over the edge by moralizing bordering on the unprofessional.

There are thousands here who have been pushed away and left with their suicidal thoughts and abandoned. Transsexualism is seen as a medical condition treated by professionals schooled in our care. Too often though some advisors reject these doctors and see it as a moral issues with non-medical solutions. What qualifies them to know better than other more experienced professional people? The damage done by these well meaning advisors has filled our suicide prevention crisis rooms. Almost everyone is fighting suicide due to discrimination or hatred from someone in their lives.

Their are teens who attempted suicide after being sent to Exodus style "Cure" programs. We've had transgender and gay people rejected and hung up on by national suicide hotlines for mentioning they were gay and transgender. Worse they were given no alternatives. I shudder to think what would happen if we were'nt here. In the past they'd die by their own hand and become an uncounted statistic. Maybe that's what was intended all along. It would be one thing if no help was available but there is. Why aren't suicidal gay and transgender people being steered to this help?

There's a simple answer to this question. It's from prejudice, hatred and disgust for us which is perceived as a moral choice. Does that mean we deserve suicide? According to some, yes it does. The fact is we're born with it and many remember it as their first remembered thought at age 4 or 5. Yet at that age one is incapable of making moral thoughts or judgement. If you're born with it it is not a choice. I know of no one in their right mind who would choose this life on purpose. Who would choose ostracism, hatred discrimination and prejudice and a sense of not fitting in with society? No one would if there was really a choice. The fact is being Gay or transgender chooses you. You don't choose it. People born with it just want to live as themselves in peace and live with the hand they've been dealt with the best that we can. This is the way we are. The problem is not us, it's those who refuse to understand us. There is nothing wrong with us it is a natural occurence in humans and even some animals. There is plenty of proof of this in science. The fact is some choose to ignore it, get on thir moral high horse and condemn us. This is not acceptable by any human standard. Suicide is not an acceptable option. No one has a right to condemn us to that.

Advisors of any kind not schooled in our treatment need to refer us to those professionals that are. Do no Harm. That's the responsible thing to do. In my opinion trusted advisors who through neglect cause our suicides should be held legally responsible for our deaths. We are not second class or excuses not to be dealt with in a humane manner. We are human beings and deserve to be treated as such. Thio eho even unintentionally cause harm to us or one of our own should pay the price. There is only one option for Tim and that is Professional care and support. Nothing else will do. It is frustrating to deal with crisis's every day that could have been prevented with a little human love, non-judgement and understanding. Silence to our issues and concerns is no answer. One suicidal crisis is one too many let alone the 700,800 that we've handled here over 5 years. Every single one of them can be attributed to another prejudiced non-understanding human being. Enough is enough Jacob. Get the poor kid some professional help. It is NOT a religious issue. Our members have suffered enough. It's a moral shame what's been done to us. I do hope you'll do the right thing. Right for Tim, not for you. We seen the dire consequences here of failing to do that. It's too horrible to describe.

Do no Harm!

Laura

PS. I spent an afternoon with people in crisis some in email and some in messenger. One was outed and is in the hospital after a suicide attempt but is OK. Another teen is being sent to An Exodus style brain washing camp for religious reasons. There were others too. I wish I could say that these are isolated incidents but they are common here. Every one of them are due to someone's prejudice and never should have happened. So if i seem angry today this is why. My apologies but this gets frustrating sometimes because it is preventable with the proper care. Too many don't get that help and self harm themselves.

[jacob82b]

I am trying to get help for Tim. I have checked the area for gender therapists, but there are none in our area. I believe that a regular psychologist could work for now. I am also trying to get him to talk to his parents. What else would you like me to do, Laura?

I am not going to send him to this Exodus place. That decision belongs to his parents, and I will not be advising it either.

But I would like to say, that I am not trying to do any harm. I do not believe that anyone would want to do any harm, but many people have views that contradict yours. I have found your views so complicated and confusing that I am not sure how anyone could understand them. So I would like to ask if you could try to understand the rest of us. This is a weird subject, and we do not understand it. I do not believe anyone is trying to harm anyone in most cases. Leaders are only trying to help in the ways they know how to help. So I would like to ask everyone here to try to be a little more open minded and kind to the rest of us, so perhaps we can understand these issues.

Thanks.

Jacob

[Sally]

Dear Jacob,

I have offered you the use of the Personal Messaging system and I will be more than glad to try to explain to you what seems to many unexplainable.

You might do better in that rather than the forums where you will get a lot of different answers.

Anything that is really troubling you , ask I will not be offended and I will answer you as completely and honestly as I can, I do believe that you want what is best for Tim and I do too.

I want to help you to understand because you are obviously a caring person and I think that you would like to know more about this.

I am here a lot of the time - I work from home and I will be very pleased to help.

A sincere offer,

Sally

[Guest Ashlee]

Jacob,

First, let me say thank you for making the attempts to get Tim the help she needs from the right people.

Second, thank you for not even suggesting that Tim be sent to an Exodus place.

Yes, there are people out there whose views completly contradict the many of us that are here. Probably because they either havn't tried to understand us, or that they just don't want to try to understand.

What is so complicated? What Laura said is pretty straight forward. Someone comes out to a parent or advisor or someone they trust, that person may ridicule or ignore the feelings of the individual. The parents may send that individual to a camp, they become severly depressed, they may try suicide. Its happened, and continues. This site is here to help those people

Why do yo say this is a "weird" subject? Because it is different from your views? Because it is not a "normal" thing to do? Because it is uncomfortable to even talk about?

I will only say that it is probably "weird" to you because, although you say you have done some research, you are ignorant of what Tim is going through.

I would suggest that you truly spend ALOT of time, time like you would spend to write an in depth paper, doing research. Because the more you know about it, the more you will understand it from Tims point of view. Read the hundreds of stories of the lives of the people that call Laura's "home."

I wish Tim and you the best,

Ashlee

[Guest]

I am trying to get help for Tim. I have checked the area for gender therapists, but there are none in our area. I believe that a regular psychologist could work for now. I am also trying to get him to talk to his parents. What else would you like me to do, Laura?

I am not going to send him to this Exodus place. That decision belongs to his parents, and I will not be advising it either.

But I would like to say, that I am not trying to do any harm. I do not believe that anyone would want to do any harm, but many people have views that contradict yours. I have found your views so complicated and confusing that I am not sure how anyone could understand them. So I would like to ask if you could try to understand the rest of us. This is a weird subject, and we do not understand it. I do not believe anyone is trying to harm anyone in most cases. Leaders are only trying to help in the ways they know how to help. So I would like to ask everyone here to try to be a little more open minded and kind to the rest of us, so perhaps we can understand these issues.

Thanks.

Jacob

The majority of people whose views conflict from mine have not dealt with 8.4 million transgender people or 70,800 suicidal crisis's over 5 years. To ignore medical and Psychiatric advice from the AMA and both APA's is foolish by people without experience. That some think that an ancient book of verses knows more than experts do is something that happens to this community everyday. They often do so at our peril. Every post you see on here has happened a thousand times. Tim is one of many who has been through this. If one deals with this everyday in nearly 400 suicide crisis's a week you might think we know exactly what will happen. There is no other site that does this for transgender people. If there were Tim's who did it the bibles way and bi-passed therapy And didn't end up in a suicide crisis we wouldn't be having any issues. If it were a matter of just stopping being transgender with prayer and it worked I'd be offering it as an alternative. The fact is that such methods haven't worked for even one member here in 5 years, not one. What I can tell you is that those who were forced to supress their "True Selves" more often than not ended up with suicide attempts, death or at least severe depression. Tim's story has happened here before many times. They are alive today only because someone here cared and had them follow WPath. Transgenderism is not a religious issue. Treating it like one is dangerous and has been life threatening. I don't have to have a crystal ball to predict Tim's likley outcome. The most you will get through exodus is temporary short term purging and the probabiltity of severe depression or suicide.

Mental and Physical health treatment for transgenders is not negotiable, Jacob. Wpath has been signed by Many Doctors and endorced by the American Medical Associtaion, The American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Who backs your method that isn't religious? There are only about 5 doctors who disagree but thousands who agree with us.

It is frustrating for me to watch people in my community damaged or die from something that could have been prevented with proper treatment. Too often I deal with amateurs who claim to know better than our care-givers because the Bible says so. Why doesn't our suicide rate make a difference to them. As one EXodus Official put it too a Gay man not passing their course. "You would be better off to commit suicide than to continue in the homsexual life style". I've heard that same quote put to members here by many clergy to members here. We had several suicide attempts as a result. This is someone's life. Does that sound Christlike to you? You have been told what could happen. It has not changed your mind one iota. You still see it as a sin intead of a medical condition do You Not? That makes you too dangeous to decide care issues for those who are transgendered. Leave it to experts not your beliefs. Otherwise i seriously fear for Tim's life if this is mishandled. This is far more than a difference of opinion. It's a matter of how he should be treated for his condition. Besides do you have any idea how many teens were outed to parents here by well meaning people with bad results. That;s why a Psychologist should help with this task. Suicide is a fact of life here. I don't know why I cannot seem to convince you of that. The world is full of people who didn't mean to do harm but did it anyway. That;s why they have "Malpractice Insurance".

Laura

PS you say it is Tim's parents decision to send him to Exodus. This despite me telling you that those style organizations have actually caused suicide attempts here. Doesn't that bother you? That doesn't sound like someone who cares to me. It sounds like that Exodus official who thought a gay man was better off committing suicide. Not suprisingly many ministers feel exactly this way. Then you wonder why we defend ourselves.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I am trying to get help for Tim. I have checked the area for gender therapists, but there are none in our area. I believe that a regular psychologist could work for now. I am also trying to get him to talk to his parents. What else would you like me to do, Laura?

I am not going to send him to this Exodus place. That decision belongs to his parents, and I will not be advising it either.

But I would like to say, that I am not trying to do any harm. I do not believe that anyone would want to do any harm, but many people have views that contradict yours. I have found your views so complicated and confusing that I am not sure how anyone could understand them. So I would like to ask if you could try to understand the rest of us. This is a weird subject, and we do not understand it. I do not believe anyone is trying to harm anyone in most cases. Leaders are only trying to help in the ways they know how to help. So I would like to ask everyone here to try to be a little more open minded and kind to the rest of us, so perhaps we can understand these issues.

Thanks.

Jacob

Like Laura said, your intent has little to do with your potential to cause harm. The dude that invented the lobotomy meant well, but he ruined a lot of people's lives with it. Good intentions don't prevent you from causing harm.

You've gotten a lot of very kind, open-minded replies in this thread. These issues aren't hard to understand. Weird subject? TG individuals deserve to be treated with the same sensitivity and respect as people diabetes or any other medical condition.

I think it would be easier for you to understand "us" if you included "us" in your "we". There is no "us" and "them". We are people just like you and deserve all the same rights and respect you enjoy, no more, no less. There is no "the rest of us". We're all the same inside. The only differences is that, with TG folks, our outsides don't match the spirit inside. We're men and women, just like you.

[jacob82b]

Let me say once more that I do not support Exodus. I do not like Exodus. I do not want Tim to go to Exodus. If Tim's parents make him go to Exodus, that is beyond my control. That is why I said it is his parents' decision, but I am not advising that he go there. My reason for stating that I do not like Exodus is Laura continually writes about Exodus. Laura, I do not agree with Exodus.

Why is this a weird subject? Most people are not transgendered. You are not normal. I do not mean this in a bad way, but you are not part of the normal, or common crowd. There is something special and unique to you all. The rest of us, do not understand this. We do not understand why you want to swap genders. That is how we see it. You may see it as correcting your body to match your brain, but we do not. Why? Because we do not see your brain. We do not see your feelings, your thoughts, or your emotions. We do not see your goals, your wants, or your desires. Because of this, it is hard for "normal" people to understand, and many of us think it is a little weird. I am sorry to say it, but this is something completely different from diabetes. I would love to include you in "us". I consider you all to be part of us in most cases. I give you the same rights as anyone else, but here I am talking about transgender and non-transgender people, and that is why you and us are different.

I do not know what is right for Tim, and I am not trying to claim that I do. I believe a therapist is a good idea, and you all seem to agree. I am not sure about transition, but that is not my place anyway. I am sorry if I appear to be antagonistic. I am not trying to be. Laura, has my mind changed? Yes, I would say it has. I do not consider his thoughts and desires to be sinful. An unnecessary transition could perhaps be a sin, but I do not believe that Tim is going to hell for his current thoughts and feelings.

Jacob

[MaryEllen]

Is Tim aware that this site exists? Why don't you let her look us over. Let her interact with her peers. She doesn't have to join if she doesn't want to but she could read about how others in a similar situation have coped with being transgendered.

MaryEllen

[Guest]

Thank you for getting to the real crux of the problem. If you see it as wierd and not worthy of medical or therapeutic treatment than you disqualify yourself from making decisions for the family. What do you think then should be done with us Jacob? Should we go away to make you feel better. You can't understand us so we aren't worthy. Is that correct. Nothing we said including suicide has made a difference to you at all. After all you know better than the AMA and both Apa's. The truth is you don't want this issue resolved for what;s best for TIM. Until he has therapy I can't decide that for him so how can you?

I knew from your first day here what you were about....... religion. What seminary did you study at? Are you really a minister? Is Tim real? If you are counseling him you should be held responsible if harm should come to him. It's really interesting you'd keep him out of the only community that can help him.

This is a transgender only site. I gave you allowances because it seemed like you really wanted to help. I should have seen that the only help you can see is religious. After all we're wierd according to you. Let alone that science have found it to occur every so many births. It's something people are born with. I think you've insulted us quite enough. It's time to go Jacob. I hope you had your fun. Please don;t let the door hit you on the way out of here. Attention Moderators Please ban this guy, Jacob82b.

Laura

[jacob82b]

Sorry if I have insulted you. I did not mean to do so. I do not mean to say that you are weird. I do not mean that as an insult, but that you are only different. Sorry, I should have used better words. Please forgive me.

I do not know better than the AMA and APA. Do they not support gender therapists? I am in support of letting Tim visit one. To me, it seems that we agree.

If you think I came here to have fun or mess with you, that is not the case. I came here for help and advice. I have received some and I have applied some of it. I do not see why you do not think I have. You said that your inclusion of suicide rates has not swayed me. I believe it has. I am not supporting Exodus. I do not want anything bad to happen to Tim. I am trying to help Tim. I am trying to get him to talk to his parents and get to a therapist, as many of the people here have directed. I am sorry if I confused you about this.

Thank you all for your help. Perhaps I should leave as it seems that I am not welcome here. I do not think I ever was.

Jacob

[Guest Pól_Eire]

Mods and Laura, I recognize that Jacob has been banned -- I would like to respond anyway in hopes that he or Tim may see this.

_________________________________________________________

Jacob,

I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything you're saying. I'll only say one thing on that point: Yes, you are right, most people are not transgendered -- it is not 'normal' at the most basic definition of the word. That doesn't mean you should treat them as abnormal. Rather, I think you should strive to treat trans people just like you would everyone else -- as they would like to be treated. If that means treating them as if they were 'normal,' then that's what I think you ought to do.

I don't expect you to change your mind about this, but I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. I do see that you are trying to help "Tim" as best you can, even if that way does not necessarily coincide with how the members of this forum (or I) think you should proceed.

I will also give you my thoughts on some of the other matters that were raised in the discussion that followed your initial post.

1. I think you should let Tim see the site so that Tim can learn more for (them)self. Maybe you could sit with Tim and look at the site together if you do not think Tim is ready to see the site unsupervised. The website can allow Tim the opportunity to see if (they) recognize (them)self in the many personal stories that are up on this site. Tim may read the site and say, "yes, that's how I feel exactly," or Tim may say, "I'm not really like this," or Tim may not be sure even after seeing the site. That's all ok. I think allowing Tim to see it would help far more than it would hurt.

2. It may or may not have seemed that way to you, but if I were a gambling man, I would bet the house that Tim believes that (they) came to you in confidence. As well as you may know Tim's parents, without being a member of that family, it is impossible to fully understand Tim's family's dynamic. Encourage Tim to talk to the parents when (they) feel ready, but do not talk for Tim (unless he gives you explicit permission). Be there, be moral support, but this is a psychological battle Tim must lead. You can support Tim, but ultimately it's very important that Tim is the one to open this discussion with the family. For me, telling my parents was the single most difficult and important part of transitioning. Family is so important, and family issues need to be discussed by the family, not introduced by someone who is outside the family.

That's my two cents. I think you should listen to me, of course, but you have to do what you think is right for Tim.

I hope you let Tim see the site, and I hope you hold off on talking to Tim's parents until Tim does. I also hope you understand that many many transpeople have had negative interactions with people of faith, and that it was most likely not all about you specifically.

Do your best. Good luck. God Bless.

-Pól Ó Súilleabháin

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Sorry, I am not trying to add any more "spices" to the broth, but Jacob nailed it pretty well. Sorry for stating the obvious, I do believe most would have saw it too.

Why is this a weird subject? Most people are not transgendered. You are not normal. I do not mean this in a bad way, but you are not part of the normal, or common crowd. There is something special and unique to you all. The rest of us, do not understand this. We do not understand why you want to swap genders. That is how we see it. You may see it as correcting your body to match your brain, but we do not. Why? Because we do not see your brain. We do not see your feelings, your thoughts, or your emotions. We do not see your goals, your wants, or your desires. Because of this, it is hard for "normal" people to understand, and many of us think it is a little weird. I am sorry to say it, but this is something completely different from diabetes. I would love to include you in "us". I consider you all to be part of us in most cases. I give you the same rights as anyone else, but here I am talking about transgender and non-transgender people, and that is why you and us are different.

As he said, unlike diabetes where they can just cut you open to see that your kidney is indeed having problems, or seeing the physical impact of diabetes, our "problem" is intangible to them. Clef lips and palate, tumours, deformed body parts, these birht defects can be seen and touched and thus are tangible. Yet ours can't, even if they cut open our brain to take a look, they still can't see it. And unless cisgendered people ever go through this, they will, to an extent, be "ignorant" about this. Every humans have always been guilty of being "ignorant" of different things, whether it's the unability to grapse a concept, a philosophy, or whatever, to the stage where they openly shut off things that go against the "normal things" they see in their Life.

I can see where Jacob is coming from, he is no mind reader. Hey, there aren't any ways or machines to read the mind of others too. Yes, the statistics are shocking. What they can really see is the effects of our turmoils-depression, self-harm, low self esteem, suicide attempts and more. But then again, anyone can go through those, right? Those "sources" of those effects (depression, self-harm etc etc) are various third parties really won't know the "sources" and that is where, I believe, ignorance comes in. So that's why a therapist is needed in this case.

Sadly, it just is. No matter how hard one explain, cisgendered people might never fully comprehend us. But one thing's for sure, the only reference they can have is the end result of transitioning, whether we are at peace with ourselves, no more suicidal thoughts etc.

It is sad that Jacob had to leave.....I find most of his posts perfectly justifiable from a third party point of view (excluding the religious talk).

I do hope Tim is able to visit this site and explore the possibilities zirself. The journey of self-discovery is an journey one must take by oneself.

Sherlyn

pointing out what everyone knows already as usual

[Sally]

I had written this earlier this evening but Laura had posted her response before I finished and I was not going to post anything after she had said goodbye, but I have noticed the additional posts and I had a point that I felt was rather important. So here it is:

Jacob,

All we ask of you is to have a little faith in us.

You said, "Why is this a weird subject? Most people are not transgendered. You are not normal. I do not mean this in a bad way, but you are not part of the normal, or common crowd. There is something special and unique to you all. The rest of us, do not understand this. We do not understand why you want to swap genders. That is how we see it. You may see it as correcting your body to match your brain, but we do not. Why? Because we do not see your brain. We do not see your feelings, your thoughts, or your emotions. We do not see your goals, your wants, or your desires."

You can't understand because you can not see or understand us - isn't that the very essence of faith - do you understand or see God?

No, that is why faith is the basis of religion, all religions a faith which is defined in the Bible as belief without a need for proof.

God doesn't come to us each day and prove to us that he is here, we see the Sun in the East and we know that God is here, we can not prove it through all of our science and using all of our greatest minds we can not prove or disprove the existence of God no matter how hard we try but we have faith and we believe.

Why must Tim prove to you that these feelings are real, why must we prove to you that we measure up in some way against some unknown scale, why can't you have a little faith and try to believe?

I would like to think that there is enough compassion to help this individual to find the proper place in the world, my only fear is that like so many others Tim will turn away from religion because of the feelings that religion has already abandoned them.

I am not exactly in the great majority here, there are not that many Christians among the Transgendered as most have felt the pressures of the 'Religious Right' to remain as they are that they have felt the need to leave their religions behind in order to live without the constant conflict of mind and body not matching.

I have offered you the option of private conversations, but you aren't too interested in that, I am not sure what you want, but it is becoming obvious that I can not be of any help - if you want someone to tell you to make Tim stay as he is for the rest of his life, it isn't going to come from me.

Laura has really said it all,

Sally

I don't know why he never excepted the offer to use the PMs and avoid the 'attacks' that he felt he received in the forums, I am sorry that Tim will not be able to make his decissions based on information from both sides.

love ya,

Sally

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

I just hope that members don't go too hard on Jacob, I'm sure he was only do what he felt was the right thing to do-So I for one respect him for it...

Personally I don't think that Jacob was lying...What does he have to gain from lying???

Metta Jendar

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Personally

I thought this topic was closed.

It started out reasonably enough, but against all reasonable arguements, it went nowhere.

It is impossible to expain transsgender issues to some outsiders and seems a waste of time.

We need to deal with that. The outside community doesn't have a clue and most are really not interested in us. They will say: "Why is this a weird subject? Most people are not transgendered. You are not normal. I do not mean this in a bad way, but you are not part of the normal, or common crowd.

Thank GOD for that! I don't want to be "part of the normal, common crowd" like them if that is the attitude they have for people.

This person? Is he REALLY normal? I doubt it. Common? Unfortunately - very common, and I DO mean that in bad way.

A little slam dunk

Lizzy

[Guest]

The thing to remember is that Jacob did not meet the criteria for being a member here in the first place. I made an exception for educational purposes and because he was a counseling figure for one of our own. He also seemed reasonable and open up to the end. Unfortunately as with many religious people we were really talking to a brick wall. He refused to see our professional treatment as the solution as a counselor. Our medical care is not open to negotitiation. There are standards for us and they are not religious. Besides those that see this as a sinful lifestyle aren't going to give the correct advice. He see's us as wierd and not normal. While i don't care what he personally thinks of us I do care when he brings his personal feelings into someone he is counseling. It's not up to him to out someone. That's a call between the teen and his therapist who will help in that area. Trying to use any other method is irresponsible and dangerous. When you explain that suicide is real and something we witness here several times a day and people cannot get that you are wasting your time. When you see tons of stories here posted by transgender people talking about coming out to parents and others and you still suggest to force a kid to do so your humanity is lacking.

Many religious people mean well. This does not mean that they can substitute their religous brand of treatment for us instead of Doctor approved methods. Professionals and counselors which a minister is have to keep their personal feelings out of their work especially when counseling on life or death matters. Too often though people try to use their personal opinions about us to treat us despite being warned of the dangers. What part about being dead from suicide is it that people like Jacob don't understand? His response is that he will try to get the teen to come out to parents before therapy no matter what the outcome will be. If the parents go to exodus despite the warnings of what happened here to many then so be it. IF death is the alternative who in their right mind would recommend taking the chance anyway? Jacob and thousands of others would. No one has the right to risk someone elses life.

In five years I've had many conversations with brick walls here. Reason doesn't move them and neither do facts. Neither rain nor snow nor sleet will move a brick wall or change it's density. I certainly doubt anyone here is going to have better luck. The subject isn't closed Jacab has though insulted us enough.

Laura

[Guest michelle.butterfly]

In five years I've had many conversations with brick walls here. Reason doesn't move them and neither do facts. Neither rain nor snow nor sleet will move a brick wall or change it's density. I certainly doubt anyone here is going to have better luck. The subject isn't closed Jacab has though insulted us enough.

Hi all,

I was initially quite active on this topic and felt that perhaps Jacob was willing to discuss this. I offered PM very quickly because I wanted him to have a chance to discuss this without having to deal with the almost gut reaction attacks on his faith, which we didn't even know.

However, he never took me up on it; he never did offer to point Tim here directly; he never did seem to even consider the option that he *ask* Tim whether she would like to tell her parents with some support. This was enough to convince me that Jacob was either not sincere or unable to decide to do anything without the support of his church which was certainly not forthcoming.

So, my only hope is that Jacob does inform Tim that the church agrees that if she is a girl in a male body that there is nothing wrong with her pursuing transition. I am fairly certain from what I saw (and I have not even read the rest of the topic since I gave up on Jacob) that the church will *never* agree that she is indeed a girl in a male body, but sometimes you can manage to get outside your church's leaders' pronouncements when you can see they contradict reality.

Good luck Tim...

Michelle

[Guest]

It is very important and critical when counseling anyone that we know our limitations. I have experience with millions yet I have not diagnosed even 1 person here, nor have i ever told anyone whether they should transition, get surgery or that it is safe to out yourself to this person or that one. I advocate one thing here, therapy. That's whose going to help you find your answers. It is impossible to guess from a few posts without personal meetings. WHile i could probably guess pretty accurately I'm not going to bet someones life on my diagnosis which I'm not qualified to give. If I'm not qualified to diagnose or out Tim, Jacob with no transgender experience at all certainly isn't qualified either.

That's the problem you can't trust someone's life to your gut feeling. When a problem arises that any counselor or advisor isn't experienced enough to solve it's simple. You refer them to a qualified person or in this case a gender therapist, not a minister, not a veternarian or the baker or the butcher or even the oracle on a mountain top. Too often laypeople think they know what's best for us and they don't. In fact they'd risk your life on their opinion. Everyone has their own talent and experience. Stone throwers don't make good glass house builders.

Laura

[Guest mia 1]

So do you think that the brick wall has a dent in it from all of us banging our heads against it ?

[Guest April63]

I thought Jacob was doing a good job. He seemed open to opinions and he was trying to get Tim into therapy. he wanted him to go to a gender therapist. Didn't he? I don't see what he could've gained form lying either. Oh well. Hopefully Tim will get along fine.

April