Sexual Orientation

[Guest Zenda]

Kia Ora,

It’s the poll lady at it again…

This time it’s on trans-‘sexual orientation’

Here’s a few links just in case there are those who are not familiar with some of the terminology…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynephilia_and_androphilia

I'm asexual bi-romantic...

And just so nobody get confused...A transwoman whose 'sexually' attracted to men is 'heterosexual' or if you prefer 'androphilic' and visa versa for transmen ='gynophilic' attracted to women=heterosexual

Sexual orientation still pending=possibly due to HRT one feels their orientation has become fluid and could shift...

[Many members have mentioned it is happening or has happened to them ]

Please don't forget to tick the appropriate box

Metta Jendar

[Guest Zabrak]

I'm bi.

[Guest Little Sara]

Pan/Omnisexual, but hetero-romantic mainly. It really depends. Maybe I'm mixing the two.

If anything, I attract women a lot less than men (even considering the ratio of straight men to lesbian/bi/pan women).

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I used to think I was bi, but now I am pretty sure I only am attracted to women. When I've dated men it was out of pressure to conform more than anything else. Over time I'd learn to like the person, but I'm finding that my feelings weren't "normal". Apparently most people can look around a room and say that some people in it are attractive. When I do that, only women seem attractive. When I've dated men it was more of a rational decision process where I'd decide "you don't repulse me" or "you don't seem like you'll be that much trouble".

Looking back, my only natural attraction has been to women. I just tried to stamp it out because I was told it wasn't okay.

Anyway, it was confusing... If only my parents hadn't taken me to church, I'd probably have figured this stuff out way sooner.

[Guest Midoe]

I'm a transwoman, who is attracted to women, so I guess that makes me a homosexual.

[Guest Little Sara]

Apparently most people can look around a room and say that some people in it are attractive. When I do that, only women seem attractive. When I've dated men it was more of a rational decision process where I'd decide "you don't repulse me" or "you don't seem like you'll be that much trouble".

This is physical attraction, which I don't really have, or have for most every type of person (male, female, trans, intersex, two-spirit, kathoey, hijra, you name it - hence pansexual), while that's not the deciding factor in who I would go with. Sure I have some physical criterias, but they're way down my list compared to most people.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

This is physical attraction, which I don't really have, or have for most every type of person (male, female, trans, intersex, two-spirit, kathoey, hijra, you name it - hence pansexual), while that's not the deciding factor in who I would go with. Sure I have some physical criterias, but they're way down my list compared to most people.

That's interesting. I've always felt really left out, particularly when I was an adolescent. People would get together and say "Oh he's hot" or "She's hot". I'd continually be confused and had no idea what they were talking about. After a while I learned which features were generally attractive and could fake the behavior reasonably well, much in the same way that a color blind person can ID colors even though they can't "see" them. Over time I began to assume that people would spend time talking about physical attraction and sex because they didn't have anything else to talk about and that it was part of the fake public persona most people have. I thought adolescent crushes were mostly made up too. It wasn't until I was 24 and fell in love with a woman that I discovered that sexual feelings and feelings of physical attraction actually exist.

Physical stuff isn't the top of my list either. I also think I am not attracted to what most men traditionally define as attractive.

I'm a transwoman, who is attracted to women, so I guess that makes me a homosexual.

Heterosexual and homosexual are such constricting labels, but most cisgendered people insist on lumping people into one of the two categories. I guess my sexual orientation could be described by saying that I prefer to be in the male role in a heteronormative relationship.

I'm attracted to both cisgendered straight women and transwomen. I think that still means I'm a heterosexual, though maybe it would be simpler just to call myself "queer". Even though it hasn't happened, I'm not going to rule out the possibility of being attracted to another FTM.

[Guest Zabrak]

I say bi because I never been with a woman/touched a woman so I don't know if I'd like them or not. I like their looks but I don't know if I like more then just past that. I don't tend to have many, if any, female friends. The few I have don't talk to me as much as I talk with my bros. Maybe I'm too crude or I'm just not interested in what they talk about.

But hey, if theres a girl out there interested in halo, gears of war, any shooter/war game, star wars, forums and fixing computers/making websites then show her my way(if I ever/when I'm not dating a man).

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Ah such complications with a simple need to be a woman!

Discussion with my therapist:

I am hetherosexual my entire life, married now, have fathered three childen, have never been attracted to man on man sex, but I have always fantasized having sex with a man as a woman.

And Elizabeth, your question is?

After SRS, which you and I agree is best for me, when I am female in primary sexual characteristics (being coy here), and I have sex with my wife, and I still hetherosexual?

Will you have changed your sex on your birth certificate?

No

Then you will still be hetherosexual legally, but the act will actaully be lesbian in nature.

So I will be lesbian, which is homosexual.

No and yes.

If I change my birth certificate?

You will be in a lesbian relationship both legally and in nature of the act.

If I don't change my birth certificate and have relations with a man after my SRS?

You will be homosexual in a legal sense but hetherosexual in nature of the act.

So I will be gay?

Yes and no

And the same if I do change my birth certificate?

You will be hetherosexual .

What if I have sex with my wife, and sex with a man?

You will be bisexual - either way, regardles with what you do to your birth cetificate

So what am I?

I am going to write down 'bisexual'

But I have never had sex with a man?

But you seem to want to.

But not like I am now!

Doesn't matter.

BOTTOM LINE: I am what I am legally, by a F or an M on a sheet of paper. The pen is mightier than the scapel!

But my theapist says I am 'bisexual' - so that's what I picked.

I am soooooo glad I have had that explained!

I asked: "So I have the legal ability, after SRS, if I change my sex on my birth certificate, to annul my first marriage and marry a man?"

My therapist answered: "You can in Louisiana!"

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

But hey, if theres a girl out there interested in halo, gears of war, any shooter/war game, star wars, forums and fixing computers/making websites then show her my way(if I ever/when I'm not dating a man).

I've met those girls and those are the ones I usually like. They aren't easy to find because they often won't openly admit to liking that stuff. Among non-techie girls, I prefer the outdoorsy, hippie types. It really is more about personality and interests than about physical appearance.

[Guest Zabrak]

I've met those girls and those are the ones I usually like. They aren't easy to find because they often won't openly admit to liking that stuff. Among non-techie girls, I prefer the outdoorsy, hippie types. It really is more about personality and interests than about physical appearance.

Yeah, a lot of my attraction comes from sharing interests or liking someones personality. I mean, a guy/girl could be really hot and I'd go with them but I may get bored of them if they have nothing about them besides their looks that I like. Its just the truth...you gotta work for me to pay attention to you. I'm not so good at focusing. Maybe I'm just a bad boyfriend. lmao

Anyway...I'd be greatful to meet a girl like that but sadly I've never met one.

[Guest]

It might interest you to know that this question is not simple for everyone who is transgendered. Over half would check the box I don't know depending on where they are in their transition. There are several reasons for this. When I started this site old research indicated that sexual orientation didn't change from pre-op to post-op. After a couple million letters and online conversations I discovered that this is not true for about 38% of us. In some cases hormone use makes a difference. Better yet some whose orientation changed on hormones reversed after stopping hormones for things like medical contra-indication issues. To me that proves the hormone link but this does not happen to everyone, just 38%.

For some there are Psychological factors that confuse things. Don't forget that Transgender people actually have a duality of gender between their born physical gender and their brain gender which is the opposite. The brain gender is the "True self". Many times what happens is that out of necessity and safety we actually create a persona for our born gender. The brain gender remains undeveloped and seperate which is the basis of our Playground concept. I took this concept to two therapist/researchers on our list who are now studying this at my request. We have a great many people here especially in chat that have been diagnosed as MPD/DID. An observer can actually watch people swap personalities but the user is unaware of the switch. Since there is a duality of genders we also observed that almost everyone switchs slighly between gender behaviors with the big exception being that they know about it unlike MPD's. The research team is exploring this further. Some of these have 2 different orientaions, one for each gender pre-op. No wonder some are confused. The good news is this duality goes away for many within two years post-op. After that most answer the orientation question with confidence.

Ther is one more huge psychological factor that many are not aware of. As most of you know Transsexuals at some point usually have a sudden epiphany where Transition and surgery becomes the only possible answer. This happens even when the TS had known from the age of 4 or 5 that they were the opposite gender than they were born as. It can happen to the young and later in life. The reason for the change is they finally see the truth they supressed in themselves all of their lives. MAny times that truma of self supression actually hid the truth in a psychological way.

One of the big reasons for the epiphany happens when we realize that we may have not been with the gender we partnered with because we were attracted to them at all. We were with them because we wanted "TO BE THEM". http://www.looking-glass.greenend.org.uk/help.htm That is a huge shock to find out. Once you know that you are never the same and transition and surgery is your only option. Suddenly everything is clear and everything you thought was true well just wasn't. Of course it isn't like this for everyone but it is for a huge majority. This is why we say not to worry about your orientation until your gender identity becomes one.

One thing I want to assure everyone is we don't care here what your orientation is here even if it's in a state of flux. It doesn't matter, We will love and support you no matter what. All are welcome here. The good news is after transition orientation even if bi or asexual will all be perfectly clear to you. No one can help what they are attracted to. Some may start noticing another gender for the first time others won't change. Attraction alone won't dictate who you'll end up with anyway. AN MTF for instance who has ben harmed by men may not psychologically want to be in a relationship with one even if her attraction for them changes. Now you understand why we recommend therapy for everyone as there are a lot of confusing issues for us. Supressing ones's self does a heck of a lot of damage. Don't dispair though our success stories are encouraging. The good news is it's being researched and i should have a surveymonkey survey out soon.

There are some in the community that believe that there is no such thing as a non-op for any reason once you've had an epiphany. This is rubbish. Some on disabiltiy or low income will never afford SRS and with 70% of Transgender unemployed this is a legitimate reason for being non-op. Others have spinal injuries or heart and extremity circulation issues that means surgery is contra-indicated for them. Some have been taken off hormones which means some undesirable characteristics come back. They deserve compassion not scorn. A transsexual person (not Transgenderist) non-op has the same overwhelming "epiphany that others have. For them not being complete is torture. Their suicide rate increases. They deserve our compassion and support not our scorn. We support everyone here. Non-ops with these issues can still live the role which can help some. The "Purists who don't believe in the legitimacy of non-ops are actually including FTM's who don't get bottom surgery but who can blame them. Few understand that this is not a perfect surgery in function or feeling. In this respect MTF's are lucky with their surgeries. Besides it's far cheaper for us.

Laura

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

It's been very healing to know that there are others who understand my confusion! This site has really been my lifeline.

It's difficult to classify sexual orientation because you have to decide whether it should be "what I have done" or "what I prefer". If we are going on what I have done, I guess I have to be bisexual. Based on what I prefer, I am a heterosexual male.

Becoming more comfortable with my body has let me finally start exploring my true sexual orientation. Before transition I just did what I could tolerate rather than what I wanted. Having to suppress so much about my true self has done some damage. I think I am generally uncomfortable with sexual relationships now because I was told that my preferences weren't natural and that I should be ashamed.

[Guest Zabrak]

As for the "none op" not being "real" I also find rubbish. First of all for the fact FTMs OPs arn't the best and second I have ALWAYS been a real male dispite how my body is. So now that my body is starting to look male doesn't make me more male it just makes me feel better about my body and about being out in public with it. I'm still a REAL man and always will be a REAL man no matter how long it takes to get my outter body to play the part.

I hope that makes sense to others as much as it makes sense to me. lol

[Guest Elizabeth K]

There is one more huge psychological factor that many are not aware of. As most of you know Transsexuals at some point usually have a sudden epiphany where Transition and surgery becomes the only possible answer. This happens even when the TS had known from the age of 4 or 5 that they were the opposite gender than they were born as. It can happen to the young and later in life. The reason for the change is they finally see the truth they supressed in themselves all of their lives. Laura

Laura - I pulled out parts of your post (see above) the 'epiphany' concept strikes me hard. I had never had this concept explained before. I remember that very moment - less than six months ago, at my first session, when my therapist said,"you are probably a transsexual."

Interestingly, I have never realized how important that moment was, which is very odd as it was 'the' turning point in my life. But I do remember feeling everything in my life suddenly made sense, and I knew I had to transition.

You hit that one squarely on the nose! And I had know from age 4 or 5 that I was really a girl and had to grow up in a male body, but noone ever told me that made me a transsexual.

I came home after therapy to my wife and she said,"you are smiling! I haven't seen you smiling like that in years."

And I don't worry at all about sexual orientation - I am what I am and will be what I will be. I just laugh with my therapist. She said she is FORCED by the SOC to put down a sexual orientation. We picked bisexual, and I have never had realtions with males. But she said, you told me you want to as a woman. So perhaps I will, I don't know yet.

Thank you for the revelation.

Lizzy

[Guest]

If I were FTM I wouldn't get bottom surgery either. It doesn't make anyone less of a man in my eyes. Here we don't care if someone is non-op, pre-op or post-op. We love everyone here. Some "Purists" though grumble. It's not their body though it's yours.

Laura

[Guest]

Laura - I pulled out parts of your post (see above) the 'epiphany' concept strikes me hard. I had never had this concept explained before. I remember that very moment - less than six months ago, at my first session, when my therapist said,"you are probably a transsexual."

For some the epiphany comes when they realize that they created a persona for their born gender and forced themselves to act against their nature. The proper question to ask was what gender was I with my partner? Was it brain gender or physical gender? Where was my head at? Who was I? Was I there with my partner or somewhere else? Most MTF's will say female and most MTF's will say male. Once you understand it you know it wasn't attraction or orientation. You wanted to be them. It's an eye popping experience. Then you know what you have to do. Sometimes the brain has some funny twists when you're confused.

During my epiphany i cried for two days straight. I suddenly realized that i lied to myslef my entire life. Some tears were sad and regretfull but they turned to happy tears when i knew what i had to do. It was like a huge weight was lifted off of me. That's when my suicide attempts stopped.

Laura

[Guest Nathaniel Darling]

Hmm, this a good question. I suppose I identify as homosexual, actually, even though my boyfriend is genetically female. (Being intimate is awwwkward.) It's very confusing I suppose. I'm an FTM who prefers men over women, is that strange? o.o Oh dearie me it's conflicting and confuses the heck outta me. <<

[Guest]

Hmm, this a good question. I suppose I identify as homosexual, actually, even though my boyfriend is genetically female. (Being intimate is awwwkward.) It's very confusing I suppose. I'm an FTM who prefers men over women, is that strange? o.o Oh dearie me it's conflicting and confuses the heck outta me. <<

Nope not strange at all. Your not alone. You have plenty of company.

There goes Jendar always getting us to think again. Thank's Jendar.

Hugs,

Lauara

[Guest Nathaniel Darling]

Nope not strange at all. Your not alone. You have plenty of company.

There goes Jendar always getting us to think again.

Hugs,

Lauara

*giggles* Heh, glad I'm not as strange as I thought. I kinda believed that "feminine" FTMs were uncommon. If that makes any sense at all...cause it sure doesn't make much sense to me.

[Guest Jackson]

For some the epiphany comes when they realize that they created a persona for their born gender and forced themselves to act against their nature. The proper question to ask was what gender was I with my partner? Was it brain gender or physical gender? Where was my head at? Who was I? Was I there with my partner or somewhere else? Most MTF's will say female and most MTF's will say male. Once you understand it you know it wasn't attraction or orientation. You wanted to be them. It's an eye popping experience. Then you know what you have to do. Sometimes the brain has some funny twists when you're confused.

Laura

I can still remember when that epiphany hit me. Now I don't remember a lot of stuff with that kind of clarity, but this I do. Also it wasn't until I had the epiphany that I realized that I had been forcing myself to be someone who I wasn't.

[Sally]

I asked: "So I have the legal ability, after SRS, if I change my sex on my birth certificate, to annul my first marriage and marry a man?"

My therapist answered: "You can in Louisiana!"

Here's an interesting point in Texas law - you can have your sex changed on your Birth Certificate after SRS - if you get the right judge to hear the case - they have multiple opitions including one that changes the Birth Certificat but never allows you to marry anyone of your previous Gender?

Also Changing your sex on the Birth Certificate does not end your marriage - but it is illegal for same sex marriages in Texas, but if you want to remarry and have gotten permission of the Judge - you still have to get divorced first,

If they could make it anymore confusing they would.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Elizabeth K]

*giggles* Heh, glad I'm not as strange as I thought. I kinda believed that "feminine" FTMs were uncommon. If that makes any sense at all...cause it sure doesn't make much sense to me.

Hee hee - Nat - your Avatar IS appropriate - my apologies! I suppose there are masculine MTFs around as well, I mean by choice.

Actually, and this is just me thinking, we transgender are probably fairly average with the general population outside our gender dysphoria (and associated problems such as depression and suicide) so there are probably the same ratios of homosexuality, birth defects (physical deformities) Down's Syndrome, and the like, as in the non-gender dysphoric community. So why not extend that to preferrences like being a bit feminine or masculine - tomboyish or nerdy - all that stuff.

The real thing that amazes me is almost everyone here, MTF and FTM, Androgyne and CD - young and old - we all have about the same story and recognise another person's angst and feelings almost instantly! That is a generalization but I think it is amazing.

So you are posting up a storm! GREAT - so glad you are here. If you ever get down - you know you can PM any of us - and that includes me. We are here for you.

Lizzy

[Guest Nathaniel Darling]

Hee hee - Nat - your Avatar IS appropriate - my apologies! I suppose there are masculine MTFs around as well, I mean by choice.

Actually, and this is just me thinking, we transgender are probably fairly average with the general population outside our gender dysphoria (and associated problems such as depression and suicide) so there are probably the same ratios of homosexuality, birth defects (physical deformities) Down's Syndrome, and the like, as in the non-gender dysphoric community. So why not extend that to preferrences like being a bit feminine or masculine - tomboyish or nerdy - all that stuff.

The real thing that amazes me is almost everyone here, MTF and FTM, Androgyne and CD - young and old - we all have about the same story and recognise another person's angst and feelings almost instantly! That is a generalization but I think it is amazing.

So you are posting up a storm! GREAT - so glad you are here. If you ever get down - you know you can PM any of us - and that includes me. We are here for you.

Lizzy

Aw, Liz, you're an absolute gem. ^^

And you're probably right, it's just slightly more confusing because of our outward appearance, so sometimes sexual orientation gets all jumbled up. It's much easier for a bio-male to say he's homosexual then it would be for an FTM to say the same thing without raising a few eyebrows. :3 I know I'm not the only one, my boyfriend James is the exact same way as far as sexual orientation goes, he's just less bubbly then I am. ^^

And yes! I already love this place, everyone here makes me feel quite comfortable, you're all so nice, I'm starting to get the hang of this "being social" thing! ^^

[Sally]

All of this talk about sexual orientation and I suddenly realized why I have so much trouble.

In college - I skipped out of my freshman Orientation - I was in Switzerland at the time - I had no idea that they covered sexual orientation there!

I thought they just showed you around the campus!

I miss all of the good stuff!

Slightly Silly Sally