What does it mean?

[Guest (S)hE-W0lf]

I recently had a thought in my head relating to how we interprete things after having read something online. Then today I spoke to a female friend of mine who made the remark that she started enjoying repetitive things like cleaning and stuff more since she became more of a girl. When I asked her what she meant by "more like a girl", she said she spends less time thinking of steel work and diy projects and more on making jewelry and clothes and maintaining het nails and hair. Her own answer, that of a gg, was to alter the way she acted and dressed, to change the activities she took part in, so she could be more secure in her identity as a women.

The online piece I read was on crossdressers and drag queens, but the comment section was what got me thinking. One of the girls there was outraged and went into a frenzy regarding the fact that people think being a women was all about how you act, dress and talk. Her opinion was that it's not the surface things, they were there to project how you feel outwards, but putting them on wasn't what made you your gender.

Now having read both sides I started thinking that anything and everything is up to interpretation. What one person sees as fact could be to another utter nonsense. So in a friendly manner I'd like to know, what does being your gender you associate with, mean to you? What makes a girl a girl and a boy a boy?

[Guest CD Laura Savatore34]

That's a good question, to me, it's seems to go to that never ending arguments of labels and titles.

What makes a man, what makes a woman, I always answered, the words themselves.

Here's what I'm says,

I grew up in Hispanic culture where a man is a " machista", does hard labor, grows a beard, the top bread winner, and protector.

But single moms do the same, minus the beard.

And some dead beats don't do a thing.

If you really look at it, that ancient definition is the one with the penis.

Jimany Cricket told me, when I was a child, I'm a human animal, we live in packs, within these pack we need to know our spot, our title our label. To know where we sit. But we create these useless census labels for ourselves which keep us down more than enlighten ourselves.

I feel my label would be all over the map;

Born with male parts, loves wearing female clothes, am more open minded than a "male" is labelled to be, can be stubburn like a female and male. Not afraid to show passion like a female is labelled to be.

See...to attempt to label who I am...you never find out...

Born named Juan, I love dressing feminine, I love women, I love men, I cry watching religious and child based movies, I can rebuild a carburetor and transmission, build and maintain a garden, cook a mean steak, love taking bubble baths, and my right hook is weak.

I think it all comes down to each person, and not saying "I'm a girl or I'm a boy" but being proud and saying "Laura Savatore, born Juan, is who I am."

[Carolyn Marie]

Geez, that's a tough one to answer, Lyn. A real philosphical quandary, and I'm not sure there is an answer to it. As you noted, it really is one of personal feelings and interpretation.

What does it mean to be female? it is a combination of many things, IMO. Certainly not just the clothes, makeup, hair, and shoes, although they go hand in hand with everything else. it is a way of feeling about yourself, that you belong to this group and not the other. That you have more in common with females than you do with males. That you think and behave one way, as opposed to another way.

it goes to the heart of what you see in the comments section of articles about transfolk, from non-trans people who don't and won't adjust their thinking beyond the physical issues. They see gender as defined by what sexual organs you have. But most of us, I think, define it as something we feel; deeply, personally, ingrained in the core of our minds, something we knew we were before we ever thought about what equipment we had down below. That is a connected issue, for sure, but for me, not the central issue.

I don't know if I can explain it better than that, Lyn. It may have to do. Our feelings about our gender is unique to each of us, and to put it down on paper is very difficult. But thanks for starting the conversation.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest]

To me it has always been a physical thing because it's fairly cut and dry and what matters to me most - and that gets me into a lot of trouble both internally and with the community. But I can't see defining gender purely on how one acts, dresses, etc. because any definition like that would be so based in stereotypes as to be offensive and innaccurate. Defining it on physicality is easier to understand but also opens up ambiguity when people fall outside those physicalities. And it's not the way you think either because you can hardly say that all men or women think the same way.

I think the best way to think of man and woman are as two categories that are helpful at describing a general split in characteristics in the human population. A combination of all the above. I think it's more helpful to think of them as probabilities then definitions. They predict the most likely traits in an average member of one group or the other but any specific member will likely not match up.

[tracy_j]

The answers given above are making me think deeply!

I am not sure I can really add much except that it is confusing me as it is one thing deciding what makes a boy a boy and another which makes a girl a girl but lots of people are neither completely boy or girl (in my opinion). I am for definite neither completely, and do get totally confused at times knowing how I should act or respond. I just behave like me - very girly at times but still somewhat male at others. I have always been like that. I had girly wallpaper in my bedroom in my teens and liked colourful clothes. Sewing and other feminine hobbies but rode a bike like a racer (though it's not unknown in women either).

These days at one point I may be working on something highly technical / tinkering with realisations of (at times) abstract ideas or at others just curling up on the sofa in something comfy and dreaming out my romantic thoughts. Both are important to me!

Yes the more I think the more I am certain that, as we are all different, no-one is likely to be purely boy or girl. It is a feeling but feelings can and do change, by the second. This is, I think, why it is a difficult question to answer

Tracy

[Charlize]

Perhaps you may have you go to the philosophers who could understand more than i.

Society makes it's call when the child is delivered into the world. Day one we get an informed guess due to our organs. To many, perhaps the majority, that is enough. Gender is purely physical to them.

The child then begins to live and it's own feelings become another look at gender. The child can completely accept it's birth assignment. It can dress and assume the role given by society or it may move somehow ignoring the roles either either in the matter of gender or sexual preferences or both. So much of our lives resides in a realm which includes both our perception and the physical world. It is hard for me to see gender as a simple physical reality. My feelings are a valid and important part of my existence and certainly play a role in much of my life. And that holds true for my sexual preference and gender feelings more than many other parts of my life.

Fully male, no fully female, no.... I am a mixture

Hugs,

Charlize

[Guest Lynnette Rae]

I have lived most of my life suppressing my desire to dress as a woman, I have always been more sensitive than most men in my opinion. I would rather have a conversation with my sisters girlfriends and not even think about picking up on them, I wanted to talk about the latest fashions but not about boys. I have always been attracted to girls but wanted to dress like them and act like them. I suppressed those feelings and acted like a man, which in turn brought about anger issues. Now My wife has told me to be me. I act girly but I am still able to use my voice as she puts it to get the kids to listen. I love my old hobbies still, Hunting, fishing, trap, shooting, but I have new hobbies that I love as well, sewing, cooking, cleaning, shopping My wife says that you are you. she loves me whether I am Lynnette or Doug. A label of Man or Woman does not apply. I am Me.

[Guest Ellyssa]

Lynn: Great question and something I've been wrestling with all my life. I've finally realized, women like to make everything beautiful, men like to possess or conquer everything. I don't know, sometimes I think I might like to possess or conquer femininity? I'd like to try it on, own it and rock it, even though my male exterior makes that impossible. So then I wonder about SRS and would I simply want to make it as a female and move on to other things or would I want to own it and live it, forever? My foray into femininity was nervous but I settled into my feminine self but more as me, not as her. Usually when I dress in private, I get very femmy. With a group of other girls, I was just me. I don't know what that means yet. But there's one way to find out, going out as Ellyssa again and I want to act out my feminine side this time.

I was seeking answers but I got more questions?

Confusion!

[Guest KatyDesire]

Thinking about this makes my head hurt.

Perhaps a clue to the answer lies in what men and women are ashamed of - men are ashamed if they show any sign of not being strong. Women are ashamed if they are not turned out properly, if the house is a mess, or if the kids are not well-behaved.

Any psychologists out there who can help?

It reminds me of the judge who was judging a porn case. He was commenting on what constitutes pornography, and his answer was something like: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it".

Hugs

[Guest (S)hE-W0lf]

This question has received some lovely answers thus far. It is a question with both an opinion and philosophical component which, in my own opinion, means no wrong or right answer. I just wanted to see if, and maybe point out that, most people don't have the same view on gender and what makes it as the stereotype dictates. I find this sort of discussion interesting as it shows all the different flavours and colours human nature possesses.

I wondered if the way we dress, act and talk made our gender, but that describes an actor rather than a gender. I wondered if it was the biological component, the tools we are born with, but thats our sex, which is also physical. I wondered if it was the way we think or our nature, but then realised some men are soft spoken and gentle but happy with being men while others in the same boat feel that it makes them feminine or even transgendered, and others just deny it and change their nature, a woman can be technical without issue but another would consider that her manly side. I thought about it being a strong feeling, an inner realization that makes someone connect or disconnect with their assigned sex, but then we are arguing the sex or body isnt to our liking, where would the clothes, actions, manner of communication and even thinking pattern come in? Why do crossdressers dress to connect to their fem selves (as I myself do), if that isnt what makes a women? Why does short hair feel more manly than long hair?

What makes a man, a man and a woman, a woman?

As biker colours and franchise signs mark that you are part of club X, Y or Z, and the requirements to join are that you either drive a bike or work at said store, maybe gender is a social illusion that works in the same way. According to your sex you are treated a certain way, seen in a certain light and expected certain things of, which in turn has an impact on how you see, treat and what you expect of, yourself. All this based on a sex and society already. Now we add personal preference and personality to that mix, a freedom of thought, and you have certain people who never wanted to be part of club man or club woman, but the requirements are that you have these genitals and those characteristics to join this club, and your responsibilities include keeping up the standards, expectations and appearances of said club. The club names are gender X, Y and Z. Whatever it is that draws a certain person to or away from their sex is the promise of fitting in or liking what should be on the other side of the fence if not just on it. I dont dispute the existence of gender; I am simply thinking that it may be an abstract, ever changing concept. I wonder if any of this makes sense, if not, I want a room with a window please!

So my answer to the question? Beats me. In my experience I am me, my gender expression and my interest dont align with any specific group voluntarily or even intentionally, and how I feel inside doesnt feel gendered or labelled. I would like to look and often feel like I should have looked like a women, or preferably be one simply due to the fact that the package deal in terms of how people treat me as man in how they would treat me if I were a girl, the way I would see myself and how I would look, but not because I feel like I am gendered that way. As was the answers from several other people here, I am who I am; gender doesnt make enough sense to limit oneself with. Yet I dress and I feel a need to look like a female, maybe thats gender? Wanting to be proud to be the sex I want to be? Maybe that makes a girl a girl? Who knows.

[Guest Ellyssa]

Well this is of no assistance whatsoever:

Gender - Definition and More from the Free Merriam ...

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

Merriam‑Webster

the state of being male or female. grammar : one of the categories (masculine, feminine, and neuter) into which words (such as nouns, adjectives, and pronouns)

So when I'm dressed and playing up my feminine side, I'd assume the "state of being...female" and thus I'm female. When I'm male I'm in the "state of being male". When I'm in male mode and I'm in a meeting daydreaming about how nice the speaker's dress is, how it would look on me, how it would feel on me and how I would feel in it, what then? When I'm working from home and dressed and on a conference call in full male voice and manner, what now?

This is reminding me of philosophy classes. How about the old, "If it feels good, do it."?

[Guest Edu]

Wow! What does gender mean? There may be many "right" answers. "Right" meaning "true" or, at least, "non false". But those would still be "wrong", because they could never be complete.

After years of struggling with my gender identity, with society's gender expectations and prejudices, with gender roles, and with gender definitions, there is only one thing I can state for sure: gender is something different for every person.

It may even change its meaning over time! For me, at least, it has. I won't bore you with a biography, but I'll put some recent examples.

For some time (mostly before meeting my current therapist), I had accepted that gender was just a social construct, a set of social norms and expectations, and I was wanting to transition just because I felt I'd still fit better with a "female" tag than with a "male" one.
Over the last couple years, I have explored so many definitions of gender I've lost count: it is an aspect of who I am, it is a part of what I express, it is a bunch of expectations and norms, and it is so much more.
Last, but not least, starting HRT made something quite clear: there is a strong biological component to it. There have been several studies that claim exactly that, but now I know it to be true: it's the only explanation to some of the effects HRT has had on me.

How about the old, "If it feels good, do it."?

Couldn't agree more! I'm transitioning because it feels good. I go by female pronouns because they feel right. I present in a feminine (although not extreme) way because it makes me feel good. Does that mean, by itself, that my gender is female? I couldn't care less: I feel good


So, this is a very interesting philosophical question, and it's good to think about it from time to time. But don't overthink it either: just be yourself and enjoy your journey!

Hugs,
Edu

PS: Does being female mean I give more hugs than a male? If that was the case, we could quantify gender just kidding

[Guest Eve Caillard]

Hi Lyn

Wow - some tough questions and even more tough answers! Personally this is how I am. I am a man. I am supposed (stereotype) to be a MAN. Sports, out with the lads, 'butch' etc. (you know the picture).

BUT I have never been that image. I associate with women. I chat with them and - get this - I cannot see them other than as friends. I do not have that male "chase women" instinct. It does not exist. So I chat with ladies, befriend and work with them and I am happy. I don't follow sport, I don't follow traditional male activities. That is how I AM. I do not need to try to be like that.

That said, I do not consciously feel the need to "do" feminine things as some kind of enforced expression of my gender feelings. That said, I do spend time underdressing each day with my favourite clothes and jewellery (that is all hidden under my manly outerwear). So getting ready for the day takes a ridiculous half hour or so, and that is when I don't varnish my toenails. My wife is way faster than me! But the essential thing is, it is not what I do, it is who I am. I don't do 'manly' activities, nor do I do 'ladies' activities.

With me it is who I associate with, the general interests I have in life (geology and astrophysics through to skirts, boots and jewellery). I am just not a manly man. I am not "built" that way. It's not that I focus more on cleaning because I feel like a women - that's just a stereotype. I like a clean house so I clean it while the rest of the family slob about and do nothing. I love womens' clothes because that is how I am for real. I love jewellery and boots because...heck... I DO. It does not get "more" because I feel more femme. It already is like that.

So I don't need to put on feeling feminine, or doing extra femining things, when in a feminine mood or mode. I am simply who I am and (as I often mutter to myself) the rest of the world can go hang. I'm a "mixed" gender. Neither one nor the other. I express how I feel. I just can't go wandering out in the streets in ladies clothes because mywife has pledged me not to!

Now, after all that, I can't help wondering if I helped in your question or have gone off on a monologue that no-one is interested in!!!

Hugs

Eve

[Guest noeleena]

Hi,

What does it mean .

what does it mean to me being a female ,........... well i dont know what it means to be a male ,never did and never will,

for some of us we were not born complete a mix of some of both to be female our mind set is we wont to give birth to our child we wont to bond with that child thats hard wired in well most women any way ,

its not about what we can or cant do though many of us can put our hands to most things its not about male v female or thats not what women do or only male work over there .

i dont see differences ill do what ever needs doing regardless the detail ,

As to clothes and adorments i really dont give a toss , i.ll wear what ever i need , yes its nice to dress in lovely clothes dont get me wrong , just thats not what im about to me its being who i am as a normal female and from birth just as i said not quite complete ,and does that change who we are ...no of cause not ,

as a female ill build a house and have done plus i was trained on the job sites as a builder is that normal for a female over 46 years , what you must do is look beyound western thinking , in thinking what women can and cant do,

our daughter worked for me on my building sites and shes pretty up with it , women prefer a female on the job and thats why i still work for them , no hassles ,

Women are into a lot more now than before why because we got sick of being treated as dirt and told we cant do that or other , not any more we can give men a run as well as them ,and i come with expreance on the job and ran my own buisness .

Being more secure in my self , would be as a very strong woman to do what i have done over the years , wether you see it as a male or female is not the issue ...........its as you see it , as a person ,that is what counts .being a female just made it right ,

...noeleena...

[Guest KatyDesire]

OK. So having given myself a really bad headache thinking about this, here is what I have come up with:

When we are born, based on the look of our genitalia, we are assigned "male" or female." However, to start with, more than 1% of people have some degree of intersex condition,

Now, based on that, we are expected to think in a certain way, dress in a certain way, etc., congruent with the "gender"which society associates with our physical sex.

the problem, of course, Is that gender exists along a spectrum, with most people having some combination of "male"and "female" characteristics.

We now want to express our personalities in full, but society only wants us to show either the "male" or the "female"portions. So we fInd a way to express our personalities more fully.

So we cross-dress, in order to make our appearance more congruent with our personalities. For some this will mean under-dressing, for some just wearing jewellery, for some it will mean presenting fully as the non-assigned gender.

For me, this is the intellectually honest thing.

It is we who are the normal (or at least honest) Ones. Those who hide their true selves - often denigrating CD's in the process, are the ones who are not being true to themselves.

Hugs all round.

[Guest LizMarie]

Recent studies using techniques that prevent children from taking time to "think" about their answers show that transgender children are as completely sure of their own gender identity as cisgender children. This strongly suggests that, as anyone would expect, our sense of identity is in the brain, not between our legs. And further, that sense of gender identity is so deep that it is not part of conscious thought which is why conscious thought can work against gender identity and actually worsen GID.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129132924.htm

Ergo, accepting culture's external definition of yourself from whatever someone sees in a 10 second visual inspection between your legs when you are born may be correct but certainly can be incorrect. Further, as biological sex studies continue to prove, biological sex (not just gender) is a sliding spectrum. Research in this field is ongoing but continues to confirm that the binary sexuality fixation of Judeo-Christian western culture is fundamentally wrong. So why continue to accept it?

In the end, someone simply has a sense of "I am male" or "I am female" and this can show in who they gravitate towards, etc. That sense of internal identity, as demonstrated with trans kids, can be very deep and fundamental. External cultural conditioning can override that fundamental sense of self (and then cause us to "rationally" try to defend the cultural expectation, even to ourselves) but it becomes obvious (to me) why we experience GID - it's the cultural conditioning that's at fault, not our sense of who we are.

So this leaves the concept of external behavior. It makes complete sense to me that some women find comfort in taking a more feminine behavioral approach to life. Some natal females do too! And it seems common enough in the transgender community for some members to choose this move towards more extreme femininity then once more mentally at peace with themselves to once again change, losing some of that ultra-feminine behavior. Who is to say this is right or wrong for any given individual? We're talking about each individual finding whatever path helps them put their gender dysphoria at ease so they can focus on the rest of their life.

In the end, each of us takes whatever steps we need to achieve peace and closure with ourselves. And there is scientific backing for doing so since we now have proof that neither gender nor sex is a simple binary value. In the end, one individual's choice to be more or less feminine does not impact me directly so I'm more than happy to allow them to express themselves as they see necessary for their own well being.