The Actual Historical Record From Multiple States On Actual Bathroom Assault By Transgender Women

[Guest LizMarie]

Here are statements from multiple US States that have protected transgender rights for years.

Transgender women assaulting natal females simply does not happen on any statistical basis worthy of discriminating against an entire class of human beings who are already discriminated against by society in multiple other ways. (NOTE: This is the normal basis the SCOTUS has deemed required for any broad based discriminatory action against a disadvantaged minority - there must be a clear statistical basis for such action, not some religious fear mongering.)

Ergo, every single one of these bills is a lie and is an excuse intended to institutionalize religious extremist bigotry. There's no other way to say it.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

[Guest Faith gibson]

Thanks for sharing that LizMarie.

[Guest Mickey]

I shared this on FB this morning. With a paragraph of my own. Two of my friends, that just happen to be female, replied and brought tears to my eyes. They are so cool and accepting, offering to go with me to the ladies, as long as I return the favor. Turns out they don't like going alone either. lol

[Drea]

I still don't understand how promoting laws that reach far beyond trans women's needs to include recreational CD and people who are not trans women.

I also fail to see how some basic fraud prevention built into the laws to prevent some perv from using exploiting these laws is any threat to trans women.

But as is typical the argument assumes that only trans women would use this protections and because all trans women we know are totally innocent in all circumstances and neglect how non-trans people can exploit such laws.

As a woman I understand the sensitivity women have. And the sensitivity doesn't apply to just conservative women. I feel there is little harm in some balance and recognition of that sensitivity.

In my opinion the battle is effectively won, has been won for some time. What we are seeing now in the political arena is extremists on both sides hammering it out at each other. Extremists on one side proposing even broader and broader protections that go far beyond the needs of trans women while trying to promote a feeling of crisis and get support among trans while we see the extreme right proposing equally ridiculous laws.

The same crap happened with the gay community. And finally reasonable and decent gay folks started to come out and showed the non-gays that gays weren't just those angry political extremists. Folks who even those who were bothered by gay people could respect.

So will/can this happen with trans people? You know, since a large number of decent trans people who are just living in their preferred gender role, being great role models and examples, unlike gays there one could argue there is some benefit being out not having to hide it, being able to be with their partners in public, etc, for many trans people they just want to live as their preferred gender and coming out has no befit to them.

Anyways, there are lots of trans who are conservative, who are religious and believe in their faiths. There are many trans people who find allies with conservatives and religious people. In fact, in the past many trans people have made big inroads getting reasonable policies in place to address the medical needs regardless of the party in power.

I think this zealotry that some have in the community against conservatives and religious folks goes far beyond the trans issue and is rooted in their own prejudices against such folks. As was stated in another topic by someone else, there are those trans people who are just as bigoted towards non-trans, towards conservatives and towards religious folks as there are non-trans people, be they conservatives, religious, and yes some liberals too, who are bigoted towards trans folks.

So to me I don't care about the extremists on either sides and it seems to me the last people I want speaking or claiming to represent me who aren't reasonable voices and people who seek to silence others by their labeling.

I've been told I should just shut up, that I am just a trans person bigoted against trans people because I dare highlight how such extreme behavior is becoming counter productive. If that is what some want to do to shut up their opposition, call them names just shows how weak their arguments are.

[Guest Mickey]

Drea sweetie, I always look forward to reading your posts. I must disagree with you on one point. The fight for basic civil rights is far from over here. It is far from over for a lot of Trans* people. There are also those who've transitioned fully and live as the gender they've always identified as, and they see the fight as being over. Because for them it is over. They are considered to be the gender they are presenting so there is no issues for them, hence they see the fight as over. In a lot of cases, mine being one of them, people are still fighting for basic civil rights that every other citizen is supposed to have.

It might be over from your perspective but not from mine sister.

[Guest Faith gibson]

I think your argument makes perfectly good sense Drea, thank you as well for opinionating it. I hate that there is even a discussion about this. I am not very political but I am thankful that there are examples of States, etc. that have been reasonable and can prove that common sense prevails over those people that just like to throw stuff out there and see what sticks to the wall. For me, this article by LIzMarie just gives me some more confidence because in my mind it eliminates some of the negative things that keep going around. I know that I personally don't really have any group that I'm aligned against. Unless it's someone that is trying to hurt me in some way. Unfortunately, there are always those that seem to feel the need to do that.

I'm thankful for those, like you and LizMarie, that try to reason these things out, I'm still just trying to get my head straight.

hugs Faith

[JJ]

In point of fact I used female restrooms for over 60 years and never once ran into a pervert or problem in one. Except fot peep holes drilled in dome in bars or gas stations. I do personally know of a small child raped in a restroom- by a man who drug her into a single stall mens room. And that is the only case I know in spite of working with women and families in both large and small areas.

I"'ve seen and run into perverts as has almost every woman. And predators as well. Was raped myself as a child but never anywhere near the restroom. It's just too dangerous and not productive for predators or perverts. But people always throw out that old bugaboo in spite of facts to the contrary.

Many other countries have bathrooms used by both sexes. And they haven't had problems. I'm glad to see a report dispelling that harmful and ultimately foolish myth

Johnny

[Guest]

I agree with Drea. There are valid concerns out there the community likes to dismiss. Which is counterproductive for two reasons.

1. It doesn't make us look good. It makes us look like crazies with no respect for women.

2. It's a really precarious place to be depending on the logic, "oh it's never happened so it never will happen". Inevitably some trans woman somewhere, or some perv in a dress, WILL do something. In fact there's a thread right now on something like this. And that will drive a huge nail through our coffin and instantly legitimize the need for such bathroom bills. We should be doing everything in our power to anticipate this event and construct our argument and policy accordingly - but that doesn't seem to be happening.

To Carla's point, with society as a whole I think we've largely won the battle mentally. More people are ok with existence of trans folks than those that aren't, and particularly in my generation, even those in really conservative places tend to hold these beliefs. I know of a trans girl in ultra conservative rural Georgia and she's not just accepted but popular! The issue is with codifying it into law, things like ENDA etc. and you're right that is an issue that still needs to be addressed. There's also some problems with psychological community, wpath and such...but there is a clear trendline in our favor there.

But you're correct that legally

[JJ]

We cant base legislation on what might happen in a highly isolated instance. I found when it was my job to investigate child molestation that the most frequent cases outside the family were ministers. So should we then pass legislation baring ministers from contact with children? It would have a far greater basis in fact than any legislation regarding trans people and bathrooms.

Sure there are bound to be incidents at some point. Because we are just people all across the spectrum -good & bad. But these laws dont protect anyone. Or conversely those allowing us freedom to use the restroom of choice encourage or legalize what is and will remain criminal behavior. When we buy into the need for legislation to criminalize and define who can use a restroom based on genitalia or birth assigned gender we label ourselves negatively

whether that is the intention or not. Protecting us wull not lead to abuse. Not to mention it is all but unenforceable.

Johnny

[Guest Clair Dufour]

First let me say that few bathrooms qualify as a place of worship! Now, I suppose there is an argument for bathrooms being covered under the separate but equal clause but, how does the state determine sex and gender? Back in the 80"s I had a MA drivers license that did not have sex on it (they have since changed that) and that was fun in other states. In fact only an MD can determine a persons sex or gender. Without it police and those who complain are on thin ice. On the other hand, laws are based on the concept of doing harm to others and at this time does not include sins and only a few affronts to public morals. Its hard to prove harm when someone strange walks in, picks a stall and then walks out.

[tracy_j]

I have heard of numerous issues in male bathrooms here but I don't remember any in female ones (except for schoolgirl bullies at school and even that was not as common as male).

I would think there are easier ways for a pervert to access if they so wanted as many of us know how scary it is dressed as a woman and going in legitamately anyway.

Thanks LizMarie

Tracy

[Guest Ripley]

I do everything I can to avoid using public restrooms. No coffee, limited fluids, no getting lunch/dinner and then going out elsewhere... Even though I now live in a very liberal area, I grew up in a small town the middle of the bible belt and the possibility of being confronted or possibly injured for having to pee is still very much in the front of my mind.

Protection for transgendered women protects women. Period. What do people think is going to happen if *gasp* women are allowed to use the womens bathroom?! The way people act, you'd think that the penis was a horrible ravenous beast that lays waste to all who oppose it! Non-standard genitals will destroy us all!

Yes, you can make an arguement that "Eventually a trans woman will assault a cis woman!" But I'm pretty sure cis women have assaulted each other in the restroom. Cis men have assaulted each other in mens restrooms too, for that matter. As long as humans are around other humans, someone's eventually going to assault someone else. How about we simply have a law that people don't assault each other? Oh wait. We do.

Also, men don't need to wear dresses in order to follow women into isolated places and do horrible things to them. I don't know whos twisted mind that fantasy came from.

The problem here all stems from the fact that trans women are still considered an "other". Until we're considered just women and we're not forced to embody our medical history, having the trans label slapped onto us at every turn, there are going to be people who object to us being in the womens bathroom. Because we're different. We're the "other". Misunderstood and to be feared.

[Drea]

Protection for transgendered women protects women. Period.

That may be true or may not be true. It all depends on how the law is written.

Just because someone says "this protects trans women" doesn't mean it just protects women. But just because that rallying cry is made trans women run to support whatever proposal without actually looking at what the protection says.

When a protection establishes the only standard to be protected and have access to a womens facility is a simple claim that one identifies as a woman regardless of any legal documentation, regardless of how they usually present, regardless of how they are presenting at the moment they are using such facilities, nor intent to transition gender roles or any other medical intervention, then yes that law will guarantee that trans women have a right to access such facility, as well as CD and men will have that right as well.

To me that is no protection for women.

But again these things never happened. Colleen Francis never showed male anatomy in ladies locker room. And you know, on that subject I've seen Colleen Francis being excused and in facilities such as locker rooms were non-trans women are allowed to be nude trans women also should be allowed to be nude even with male anatomy because it is unfair that trans women who haven't had surgey have to cover themselves.

[JJ]

The funny thing is that with the exception of Mrs Duggar and here all the bills & protests and dire fears are being put forth by men. I have never heard a woman otherwise express this fear. Fears & safety are taught to women from infancy too. This one has no real basis in fact. I admit women are taught to fear and avoid going to a men's bathroom because the environment is very different and a woman walking in could be seen as an approach instead.
If it is sexual assault you fear from a CD in the restroom why not fear lesbians too? Makes more sense and some HAVE committed rapes. More than men dressed as women I'd bet my life. Nor can anyone determine that someone is a danger because they are a CD and are not because they are trans. When presenting as female where should someone cross dressing use the restroom? In the women's there are nothing but stalls with doors so what is the problem with someone in female mode using a female restroom? Certainly they are not going to be in there to spy on you, at least not any more than a lesbian or bi person I suppose though it would be a fruitless and stupid thing to do and something I haven't run into in thousands of trips to the women's. you do get to see someone touch up makeup and in the old days adjust a slip but that was about it.

When and how do you decide who gets to use the restroom legally and who doesn't?

Maybe you favor separate facilities for LBGT? But of course you'd still get men & women mixed unless you require separate bathrooms. Separate but equal so we dont endanger anyone? Like it used to be seen with African-Americans.
Oh yeah that was ruled unconstitutional wasn't it? Because it was discrimination just as forcing me to use a bathroom of a gender I do not identify with would be.

Also think it's ironic that though I stand to urinate, have a beard and am sexually attracted to women I'd be forced into a female bathroom. Now that makes sense only if is a penis that you fear. And then you better codify that it is a natural one. Eventually some transman could attack a woman in a women's restroom too. What a conundrum.

Maybe the best solution is to rely on the laws already in place against sexual assault instead
Johnny