Experiencing sexism

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

This is kind of aimed towards the FT crowd, but it's a good opportunity for those about to embark on going FT, or are thinking about going FT.

When...(I say when because I'm sure you've already experienced it)...when was the first time you experienced some form of sexism that made you think "dang, being a girl stinks!"

I think my first experience (I've had many) was when my ideas for a suggestion were simply brushed aside. I was used to being listened to and have my ideas taken into consideration, so the first time someone just brushed my idea aside, I was kind of taken aback by it. By the time I could fully process what had just happened, the conversation was moving on and thus, there wasn't an opportunity to get my idea heard. I tried to object but they actually started talking over me so I just let it go.

Another example was when I was talked down to by a mechanic. I'm pretty familiar with my truck so when the mechanic started using simple words to explain what he had done to repair it, I was slightly offended. I could have spoken up about it but I figured it's probably pointless to even bother.

A third example was, well, I figured chivalry was alive and well but I have soon found out that it's not all the time and some people will refuse to do it, either just by being oblivious or going out of there way to not hold a door open for you. This only happens from time to time so maybe they're just jerks, you know? lol

There have been times where I've been siting at a diner counter and within ear shot about a guy talking negatively about women, or making a joke about us and I'm just sitting there thinking "Do you not realize I'm sitting right over here?"

So yeah, I definitely wasn't prepared for all of that. At least someone could have warned me first that this was going to happen but I guess as is the case with my lady friends, we're all so used to it now that one doesn't think about it for someone just crossing over into the other team.

Anyway, feel free to share examples if you have them. Maybe this will help those about to go FT or thinking about FT know what they could expect when they begin life on the other team.

[VickySGV]

I have told this one before, but it still makes me roll my eyes and shake my head. I was in a hardware store deliberately buying some Metric sized nuts and bolts. I knew darn well what I was buying but a floor salesman came over and was lecturing me on being sure of what I was buying and making a big deal I was buying metric over American sizes. He obviously doubted I was getting the right ones, I mean why would a woman buy that type of hardware. His next attack was that I had the right type of wrenches ( I go from 2 mm to 40 mm in 5 different styles of metric wrenches, and SAE wrenches of at least 8 types too.) but by that time I was getting ticked off, so I told him "Yeah, I have a metric Crescent Wrench that will do fine!!" Two of his buddies were got him out of there fast.

My other recent sexism took place last month as I was trying to buy a computer cord for my new Tablet computer. I wanted a USB extension cord due to my power source location. I happen to be VERY well educated on electronics and electricity but he was giving me a lecture which broke Ohm's Law about 50 ways, and when I told him truthfully that I am a government licensed radio operator he got really huffy and stuffy, but at least admitted that he did not know WHY something would not work, and then vanished.

[Carolyn Marie]

Not quite as blatant, but I have experienced auto parts dealers,service techs and home improvement sales guys eyes widen when I tell them I was fine installing my own air filters and doing minor engine maintenance, or doing minor electrical repairs at home. I have to admit that I'm not exactly a Ms. Fix It, but I don't mind getting my hands dirty. Most seem to give me respect when they discover that I know what I'm doing.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest]

I don't pass well enough to be direct victim of sexism like you Lizzie but people at work will say just how girls are not good programmer and stuff like that. Obviously they think i'm a man who's just a little freak so they don't stop for me, lol. But I feel so bad when those things happen.

[Guest Deanna]

My most frequent example is at work. I troubleshoot with other techs. Before my word was golden, now they just talk down or over me. The next was when this roof salesman tried to scare me in to buy a new roof. Little did he know I have done all the repairs so far. But I just let it go. I don't see the point in speaking up (unless required) because then your labeled the "B" word. My spouse just laughs and says "what did you expect? this is how it is" Oh well, still the best thing I ever did!

Deanna

[Charlize]

I remember the first time this happened best of all. I was at an opening of a two person art show that i was half of. I was discussing one of my works with a man when another man arrived. Neither knew i was the artist whose work they were discussing. It was simply amazing when they turned their back to me to continue their somewhat ridiculous conversation. Oh well i'm becoming even a bigger feminist.

Hugs,

Charlize

[tracy_j]

Maybe its just me being naturally submissive but I have always had such problems. Some people are always wanting to be top dog and show how much they (appear to) know but there are times when I am far more highly qualifed both in knowledge and experience so I (being submissive) just let them rabbit on, make my decision and act on it. It is not unusual for me to be totally abstract in thought anyway, so people often have difficulty understanding my thought pathway.

Working in a female dominated environment tends to mean that things are usually more equal anyway although I have noticed some stereotype type discrimination.

I don't think things have really changed recently for me although I have had occasion when male staff members in shops have been more helpful than I would expect.

Tracy

[Guest LizMarie]

I've been full time now just over four months. One of the most amusing things was my boss's boss, whom I've known for a few years. He's a very open minded and liberal guy, as much as he can seem to muster, but he is still a product of his time and place of growing up. Before I went full time, I was treated one way and the only other female on our team was always treated in a mildly condescending way, talking down to her, etc., despite her being our resident expert on specific topics. After I transitioned, at one of our meetings, he began talking that same way to me. My boss just looked at me and rolled his eyes. I sat there and smiled while my other female teammate grinned at me knowingly. And almost as funny, one of the other guys on our team didn't even recognize what my boss's boss was doing until it was pointed out to him later.

[Cyndee]

I work in the tech field, I've been doing this for decades, I get talked down to by the "experts" once and while after transitioning, but I've embraced a new strategy of unleashing the power of suggestion As her, I use suggestions at just the right moments, to allow the "experts" to come to the conclusion that the great idea was theirs, then I re-enforce that by saying "good ideas", then they come back to me for even more....

C -

[Guest]

I work in the tech field, I've been doing this for decades, I get talked down to by the "experts" once and while after transitioning, but I've embraced a new strategy of unleashing the power of suggestion As her, I use suggestions at just the right moments, to allow the "experts" to come to the conclusion that the great idea was theirs, then I re-enforce that by saying "good ideas", then they come back to me for even more....

C -

This seems to work every time.

Huggs,

Joann

[Zoe of Tamriel]

One time I got all dressed up and went to a convention for a text-based game called Zork that I used to fangirl over a lot, and I passed pretty well.

Anyway, there was a competition where we would try to program an application to solve a complex science issue that was selected at random and the minute I walked into the room, I got a million stares and overheard whispers, "wha-what....?" ... "...she probably doesn't even know what a void is...." ... "...she needs to get out..."

Ergh, I wanted to print to everyone's screen and tell them that this is why they can't get into relationships....I came in second place, by the way.

[Guest]

Tracey I agree with you, there are so many times I've been talked down to, ignored, thought an idiot, etc. that when I transition, unless someone specifically says "I'm acting this way because you're a woman" I'm likely to think the person is just an --Censored-- not sexist.

I do think there is an overtendency amongst women to label any negative interaction with a male as sexist, because they're already expecting it. And that opinion is likely to get me flamed but what can you do lol

[Guest]

I'd also add its REALLY dependent on the area you live in, the industry you work, the age of your peers, etc.

And it can also manifest itself in different ways. My one coworker has what could be considered sexist views of women but he also treats them the same as any other person.

And at least for me, I've experienced enough negative attitudes and treatment from girls about my maleness thag I really don't think you're average everyday sexism is going to be all that big a deal. At least then it won't be a constant reminder of my membership with a group I'd rather not be part of.

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Tracey I agree with you, there are so many times I've been talked down to, ignored, thought an idiot, etc. that when I transition, unless someone specifically says "I'm acting this way because you're a woman"...

Which isn't going to happen. Noone is going to just flat out say "I'm doing this because you're a woman". Your average chauvinist doesn't preface things.

I do think there is an overtendency amongst women to label any negative interaction with a male as sexist, because they're already expecting it.

I'm going to disagree with this. There have been plenty of negative interaction where I simply think "geez, what a jerk." It's when the interaction, be it direct or indirect, reinforces a gender stereotype where it becomes sexist. Like when my mom and I would start talking at length about something and my dad is sitting off to the side silently mocking us, implying that women talk a lot when they get together.

Or the example I thought of today. A few weeks ago I had an early morning delivery and there was another truck from my company there as well. I back into the receiving dock and am sitting in my truck when the driver from the other truck comes up and starts talking to me. He starts telling me about how much he loves truck driving and begins telling me about a few good places to stop (many of which I've been to but I just nod along). I asked him how long he's been driving and he tells me 2 months. When I finally say "oh, so you're still new to the industry", he decides to ask me how long I've been driving. He was under the impression he was the veteran driver and I, on the other hand, was the brand new driver...until I told him I've been driving 5 years.

Actually, I seem to get that a lot. I can't seem to possibly think why some guys think I'm a brand new driver, or if I'm at a terminal, that I'm currently in new hire orientation. (note the sarcasm)

Part of my former male life included being completely oblivious to this stuff, or just brushing it off as no big deal when my friends would complain about it. When it first happened to me, I wasn't expecting it, it caught me by surprise. After it started happening time and time again is when I stopped casually dismissing it and began thinking "okay, why is this happening to me now?" and then it hit me...oh, because I'm a woman, that's why.

...and that's about the time when I stopped seeing womanhood with rose colored glasses and was finally aware of what life was really like on this team, which is when I thought "man, this sucks!" to which my knowing and empathetic friends responded "welcome to being a woman!" Don't get me wrong, being a woman is awesome and amazing and wonderful and I wouldn't trade it for...that...but man, some of the poo we have to deal with....

[Guest]

The examples I'm thinking of are sort of the classic ones you hear a lot: the cable guy is sexist because he wouldn't listen to what I was saying and acted like I didn't know what I was talking about. Or my boss doesn't listen to my ideas.

To which I generally reply: no the cable guy is just a jerk. He treats me the same exact way.

And, at least in my experience, bosses don't really want to listen to anyone's ideas. At most they'll listen to the circle of other bosses. Or if you have a good one, listen to everyone. Although I'm sure there's always that one guy....

In no way am I trying to dismiss sexism (or racism or any other "Ism" by similar logic), I just think that there are times when it's not occurring, depending on the person perhaps a lot of times, when those of the discriminated group see it.

Conversely though I'd probably argue that the opposite is true for males (or those of us pretransition) in that we could probably be staring straight at it and not recognize it in some or many cases.

I just think personal perspective plays a really large role in how we perceive the motivations of the actions of the people around us. For example, If I walk past a few people and they start laughing at roughly the same time, I immediately assume they're laughing about me, my size, my clothes, something. That's what I'm concious of, and it's an easy reason, and I'll usually jump to that conclusion. And maybe they WERE laughing at me. But they could just as easily been laughing about a funny joke. A person who was more self confident, or without any easy reason to blame, would perhaps immediately jump to that conclusion instead. Still yet, a poor black person might assume they're laughing at his oversized clothes or race. You see what I mean? There are a lot of possible interpretations to any event, and it's impossible that you'll be right all the time. And the more you tend to jump to the same explanation, the more often you're likely to be wrong. Not that you're never right.

[Guest noeleena]

Hi,

Im not sure how best to put this,

Difference , Okay coming from my background and those and this includes many 10.s of 1000.s of people I did not have any of what this is about, for those who can I say changed from male to female , because it never applied to me .

as every one knows I was and still do a bit been in the building sector for 46 odd years and that covered other trades as well ,so that covers many job sites I have been on , also being so well known did not change how people accepted myself ,

Women have said they prefer that I be on the job than some men and as we relate well with each other as women theres no male talk , men from the building indus accept I know what im talking about and don't try and 2nd quess me or try and tell me what I already know,

I worked on farms as well with heavy farm gear and repaired any thing that needed it many men still work for me as im incharge of detail as needed and women are comfortable around me so just because im a female who happened to be trained by men don't class me as, oh....... your just a woman what the hell would you know any way ,

men will ask me on many levels about issues and detail yes it can be quite funny at times having this woman in charge and bossing the men around ...not really you know what I mean and im respected for who I am and what I can do ,

They also know very well of my cabibilitys and know how and wont me there, to be incharge .

Maybe I never had this male / female difference to start with from birth and did not see that there was a difference.

As a ? how am I meant to see this in what your saying .

Sexism. The mechanic and talking down to you , Oh I worked on gear box,s and striped them down and repaired them as big as your motor in your truck and back ends plus truck motors 15 ton trucks and tractors ... oh but a female cant do that ,im not trained ,

Oh yea quess what boys we can play your game and do it better, I think I understand your detail maybe because we come from the backblocks we learned fast to just do it,

im not some wimp I may not look as strong as some of the guys I know yet iv done stuff they,d have no idear how to do, you know being a female is not that hard just the guys need to respect us more .will they maybe when I stick the boot in ,

...noeleena...

[Cyndee]

Jimi asked the question "Have you ever been experienced ?", well I have....

Sexism is real, it's evil, it should NEVER be discounted, and of course it goes both ways.

I experienced real sexism in my old band, gawd. The lead singer I worked with for years was so hung up on the "men are superior" head trips, and he had real marital problems (no wonder). When I transitioned, it freaked him out, he would make snide remarks to the other band members about women, even in my company. I got so tired of it, I had to leave that band, even up to the last gig we played, he would love my bass work, but had a real problems with me being a girl, his ego and his own transphobia would be his own undoing. He once told us about a time when he grew his hair out and he looked in the mirror one day and he saw himself as female and it freaked him out, he fears women deeply, he feared seeing himself as a woman. His sexism was rooted in fear....

In the end I did not burn any bridges with those guys, in fact the drummer from that band and I are in a different band together, he embraced me as Cynthia from the get go, the lead singer however, stuck to my old male identity and was left behind....I still call him a friend, as we had much to like about each other, however his sexism was his undoing, bad karma, call it what ever....I still love you Stevo, you know that....

C -

[Guest LizMarie]

Kira, I am working with people who knew me as male, and the interaction in certain cases is markedly different. And the only difference is I am now female not male. So how do I account for the differences in treatment?

I go to the same car place I've gone to for years. I'm talked down to now the way my wife used to be when before the same guy behind the counter would shoot the breeze about cars.

I go to the hardware store and was treated one way by this one older salesman. I'm sure he doesn't remember me specifically, but now no matter what I say, I get these long run on explanations about how power saws work. LOL

Sure, there are times people are just being jerks. But for an MtF it can sometimes be blatantly clear when it's sexism. Especially when it's someone with whom you interacted previously and was treated a different way.

[KathrynJulia]

Sexism is the number 1 reason I've decided to get out of computer support and go back to working in the laboratory. After I transitioned I went from capable to questionable. In the Midwest, it can be very blatant in certain circles even though I had earned a Bachelors Degree and was a very capable and very technical person.

When I worked in laboratory medicine, even though I was male, I was perceived as one of the girls. I raised my kids, got my hands dirty doing housework, and spoke respectfully to the woman I worked with. I really scored points when I stood up for one of the woman to a really sexist South African Resident Doctor. He would be so disrespectful to the woman in my lab. He was a real donkey towards them.

I've reached the age where I don't have the time or the stomach to deal with a man who is behaving with total ignorance. Kathy

[Guest Deenah]

I love it when people trying to one up me. Or try this crap with me. I'm very seasoned and we'll educated, bring it.

people like that just don't get any respect from this chic.

[StephanieVikingGirl]

Yep, I gotta admit it, I get treated differently nowadays. The first time I actually experienced sexism, I almost didn't notice it at first, it kinda hit me later. I took my cute little black Toyota MR2 Spyder to get the oil changed (I used to change my own oil, but my knees have gotten bad in recent years). In any case, as I tell the man at my window that it needs an oil change, he asks "ma'am, do you have maybe a rough idea of when it was changed last?", and it kinda continued on from there. He spoke slowly and with small simple words regarding the car. I smiled, and took it all gracefully, and he was very polite. Later that afternoon, when I arrived home, and shut off the engine, it started to dawn on me what had just happened. Here I was, an ex-SCCA Solo II competitor being talked down to in regards to a simple oil change, wow. LOL, ... hey, wait a minute, that's not something I should laugh about is it? Hmmmm....

hugs,

Stephanie